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Thread: expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested.

    I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated.

    This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:


    That doesn't look like it tracks the mountains particularly. There's no particularly high presence down the stretch of the Apennines, for example, as there is for some G2a.

    Here's the Wiki map of E-V68 the parent, for what it's worth:


    It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north:

    Particularly on the Wiki map of E-V68 it just looks like it hopped across the Adriatic.

    Edit to add Cavalli Sforza autsomal map 4:
    Your map PC4 is why natgeno2 and 23andme refer to people from this area as "GREEK" in their AuDNa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
    Is E-v13 also known as E-M35? ........because than is what is in Friuli-Venezia-giulia

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    Sorry, forgot to post the fourth Cavalli Sforza autosomal map. I've corrected the original post.


    I'd like to know what specific subclade of E-V13 is present in Liguria, which doesn't much match this autosomal spread. Here is the E-V13 map again:



    I wonder if it's possible that the Ligurian branch is mostly the Neolithic Cardial related one? After all, that's the route that Cardial took into more western areas of Europe...i.e. along the northern littoral of the Mediterranean from Italy and then down into Spain among other areas. The frequency in Sicily is in the interior plain, so perhaps as Mars suggested the Neolithic strains retreated before subsequent migrations?



    Certainly, Liguria isn't significant in that Cavalli Sforza spread out from the Balkans, although perhaps it's possible it's a spread along the coast from Massalia? So, maybe the yDna track is there, but not much of an autosomal one?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
    Mars how do we know that E-V13 is more frequent in mountainous areas? Do we really know the methodology used? What I mean is even if this is so, Isn't most of Italy under this type of terrain? Example in Sicily the biggest hot spot of E-V13 is Piazza Aremeria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina If not mistaken that could not be really considered Mountain terrain. Would you have an idea were the samples would be taken from?

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    This is what Dienekes has to say about the ancient E-V13 found in the Burial cave of North East Spain. I am not sure if further more refined tests would be able to change this view.

    The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11...nd-g2a-in.html

    Having said that 7 Marker match is not a great deal to go with, so all is possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    you mean the Messapians?
    Yes, I talked about them yesterday
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Mars how do we know that E-V13 is more frequent in mountainous areas? Do we really know the methodology used? What I mean is even if this is so, Isn't most of Italy under this type of terrain? Example in Sicily the biggest hot spot of E-V13 is Piazza Aremeria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina If not mistaken that could not be really considered Mountain terrain. Would you have an idea were the samples would be taken from?
    It was simple speculation, since I know those regions - Liguria, Abruzzo and Friuli - have rough and not easy to access mountainous areas, and Maciamo stated that native neolithic populations often took shelter in areas like those, after the arrival of the indoeuropeans.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. This holds for mountainous regions in both the north the south of Italy. Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally) this 7-9% number is not much different from the frequency with which E-V13 is found in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland, etc). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities where E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 16% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, depending on the region, but circa 70 or 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1b is 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact E-V13 rates are significantly higher in the east & north of Italy, than in Sicily, the south-west & central west of Italy, despite Sicily & the southwest having very high rates of e1b1b.
    Last edited by ESpraguer; 23-11-16 at 21:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. In the North this is not all that different from the E-V13 rate just north of Italy in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities, E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 18% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, in certain areas, cities, or regions, but circa 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1bis 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact it's significantly higher than Sicily taken as a whole.
    I do not know where you get your numbers from .............but in north-italy the bulk ( 85% ) of E-M35 are the equivalent of E-L117 ...............E-V13 is further down and only a very few in studies are noted as this marker ...........there are many branches that came out of E-M35 , not just E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. In the North this is not all that different from the E-V13 rate just north of Italy in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities, E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 18% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, in certain areas, cities, or regions, but circa 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1bis 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact it's significantly higher than Sicily taken as a whole.
    For every claim you make please post a link to the precise paper where the data can be found.The page number would be helpful as well. If the material is in a chart please provide a link or reproduce it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I do not know where you get your numbers from .............but in north-italy the bulk ( 85% ) of E-M35 are the equivalent of E-L117 ...............E-V13 is further down and only a very few in studies are noted as this marker ...........there are many branches that came out of E-M35 , not just E-V13
    Sure. Boattini et al: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441. Go into Table S1 & S2. Breaking down the numbers is easy, but the patterns are quite clear. E-V13 is heavy in the coastal east & the coastal north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    Sure. Boattini et al: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441. Go into Table S1 & S2. Breaking down the numbers is easy, but the patterns are quite clear. E-V13 is heavy in the coastal east & the coastal north.
    I see only 50% in North-west Italy ........and nothing for North-East Italy also, you are assuming E-V13 is coastal

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    I can't explain Cavalli Sforza's autosomal line exactly, but I'll say this: often the creation of maps like this are based upon arbitrarily chosen lines of equal "something". The boundaries are therefore artificial. Because an area is slightly over a line or slightly under a line may not really tell you that much. In truth, the gradients are gradual. The lines make the gradual gradients seem like boundaries or jumps, even though they're not really. Although a town 100 miles east might be within some different zone, the actual genetic differences between the areas might be infinitessimal. The map is by and large meant to show a particular pattern. In doing so however, it sacrifices precision for conceptual understanding. I share your thoughts on the possible neolithic Cardial connection to Liguria. However, until someone actually looks at the V-13 from the area, it is pure speculation as to how far in time it goes back. Nevertheless, here is my crude map on possible Cardial movements. I think the maritime route around Sicily seems significantly less likely, although we're talking about large time spans so who really knows? Still, I think V-13's distribution tracks a land movement along the eastern Appenines & into the Po Valley.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    I think you're confused regarding the table. Northwest Italy is area 1. In this area 9.3% of all haplos are E-V13. The other E's altogether total 2.4%. That makes E-V13 just under 80% of all E in area 1. In Northeast Italy (area 2) E-V13 is 11% of all haplos (an even higher rate). There is a larger percentage of non E-V13 here however. 5.5% of haplos are non E-V13 E. That means exactly 2/3 (66.66%) of all E in NE Italy is E-V13. This is slightly lower than the Northwest but it's significantly higher than south-west & central-west Italy where E-V13 comprises only 30-50% of all E. Along the east coast of Italy as a whole, E-V13 is on average about 3/4 of all E (much like in the north as a whole). That's roughly double the % of E found in the west. The east also has about 1.5x as much E-V13 in absolute numbers (Liguria excepted).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Thanks The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com its formation is 12500ybp How important is TMRCA in regards to E-V13?
    Yeah, we can say pretty definitively at this point that this is wrong. We have E-V13 confirmed in Cardium era Spain & we have E-M78 from both Sopot & Lengyel from same time period. Unfortunately the author did not dig deeper into sub-clade to confirm E-V13, but given the age & the region I'd bet 20-1 some if not all of the E samples are E-V13. So we have E-V13 in Cardium Pottery Spain & half way across the continent in Pannonian region from roughly 7000 yrs ago. Yet V13 expanded 4000 yrs ago? Don't think so. There may have been multiple expansions as I believe Mars & Angela suggested (at least one in the Bronze age (Greek) & one 8000 yrs ago or so & there may even be others). However, I think we can say pretty definitively E-V13 started expanding long before 4000 years ago. Also, given its distribution in virtually every corner of Europe, I think its origins in Europe & its presence generally go way back. http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11...nd-g2a-in.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, forgot to post the fourth Cavalli Sforza autosomal map. I've corrected the original post.I'd like to know what specific subclade of E-V13 is present in Liguria, which doesn't much match this autosomal spread. Here is the E-V13 map again:I wonder if it's possible that the Ligurian branch is mostly the Neolithic Cardial related one? After all, that's the route that Cardial took into more western areas of Europe...i.e. along the northern littoral of the Mediterranean from Italy and then down into Spain among other areas. The frequency in Sicily is in the interior plain, so perhaps as Mars suggested the Neolithic strains retreated before subsequent migrations?Certainly, Liguria isn't significant in that Cavalli Sforza spread out from the Balkans, although perhaps it's possible it's a spread along the coast from Massalia? So, maybe the yDna track is there, but not much of an autosomal one?
    Is n't Genoua at Liguria? possibilty of migration from colonies to capital?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Is n't Genoua at Liguria? possibilty of migration from colonies to capital?
    It's an interesting thought, but perhaps a movement of mtDna might be more likely?I think the ties of Venice to Greece and the Balkans are even stronger, yes?My cousin married a Venetian, and she had to name her son Archimedi as that was the family tradition. Poor thing, we just call him Medi. :)https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cPY08HpWdII/maxresdefault.jpg

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    There is ample E-V13 in the east of Italy. Not sure what percentage is Messapian but I'm pretty sure some is. Then of course there is the question about the origins of the North & South Picentes/Picentinis (North Picene language might not even be Indo-European oddly enough). However, Rimini and this area of north-central/central east Italy (Valmarechia) is also an e1b1b hotspot (15-20% or so) (Ferri et al), & roughly 3/4 is in all likelihood E-V13. Even higher just to the south in Marche near Ancona & Fabriano (20%) (Onofri et al). Lot of E-V13 in the east of the peninsula. Far more than in the west.

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    Yeah, they are. The Republic of Venice even included parts of the Balkans & Greece at various points throughout history. Ties are very strong. I kind of like the name "Archimedes". Was he brainy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...di_Venezia.png

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    There is ample E-V13 in the east of Italy. Not sure what percentage is Messapian but I'm pretty sure some is. Then of course there is the question about the origins of the North & South Picentes/Picentinis (North Picene language might not even be Indo-European oddly enough). However, Rimini and this area of north-central/central east Italy (Valmarechia) is also an e1b1b hotspot (15-20% or so) (Ferri et al), & roughly 3/4 is in all likelihood E-V13. Even higher just to the south in Marche near Ancona & Fabriano (20%) (Onofri et al). Lot of E-V13 in the east of the peninsula. Far more than in the west.
    To be honest i don't understand nothing from genetics and i prefer to read here in order to learn something. I will try to express my opinion from an historical point of view. From your post i have learn that there is a lot of E-V13 in east of italic peninsula. From the genetic map i see that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in Albania especially in Kosova. And Eastern part of Appennini is in front of Albania. There is this theory of messapians being illyrians, ok. But what we know from historical sources is that there were many migration from Albania to Italy. Illyrians fought against Romans but later they became the back bone of Roman Empire with important presence in the Roman army. There is a long list of Roman Emperors who were Illyrians.Also during the middle age there was different migrations of Albanians toward Italy. I think this explain why in the Eastern side of Peninsula there is this concentration of E-V13.
    Last edited by LABERIA; 24-11-16 at 12:13.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    To be honest i don't understand nothing from genetics and i prefer to read here in order to learn something. I will try to express my opinion from an historical point of view. From your post i have learn that there is a lot of E-V13 in east of italic peninsula. From the genetic map i see that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in Albania especially in Kosova. And Eastern part of Appennini is in front of Albania. There is this theory of messapians being illyrians, ok. But what we know from historical sources is that there were many migration from Albania to Italy. Illyrians fought against Romans but later they became the back bone of Roman Empire with important presence in the Roman army. There is a long list of Roman Emperors who were Illyrians.Also during the middle age there was different migrations of Albanians toward Italy. I think this explain why in the Eastern side of Peninsula there is this concentration of E-V13.
    That's absolutely correct. The "Adriatic Zone", if I can call it that, has been exchanging genes for a long time, as has the entire Balkan area and Italy. In fact, according to Ralph and Coop, the only significant gene flow into Italy since the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC has been from the Balkans. See: Ralph and Coophttp://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555Also, the trade between the eastern coastal areas and Greece goes back to the Mycenaeans and beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    I think you're confused regarding the table. Northwest Italy is area 1. In this area 9.3% of all haplos are E-V13. The other E's altogether total 2.4%. That makes E-V13 just under 80% of all E in area 1. In Northeast Italy (area 2) E-V13 is 11% of all haplos (an even higher rate). There is a larger percentage of non E-V13 here however. 5.5% of haplos are non E-V13 E. That means exactly 2/3 (66.66%) of all E in NE Italy is E-V13. This is slightly lower than the Northwest but it's significantly higher than south-west & central-west Italy where E-V13 comprises only 30-50% of all E. Along the east coast of Italy as a whole, E-V13 is on average about 3/4 of all E (much like in the north as a whole). That's roughly double the % of E found in the west. The east also has about 1.5x as much E-V13 in absolute numbers (Liguria excepted).
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults do you fit with any person in this ftdna link .............................. https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults .............maybe this one

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested. I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated. This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:
    From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. In antiquity the region of Kosova was called Dardania, from the famous Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Fanula Papazoglu, professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish. When an important family migrated in a another country, many other followed it. It`s something that we see in our days. You know, brothers, cousins, friends arrive one after another, helping each other. Also Durres during the middle age was part of Albania Veneta and in the city there were two neighborhood, one Venetian and one Genoese. After that Durres fell in the hand of the Ottomans in year 1501, this people migrated in Italy and probably the Venetians went in Venecia and the Genoese in Genoa. And it`s high probabile that some Albanians migrated with Italians. In Venice was a large colony of Albanians from North Albania who migrated especially after the fell of Shkodra.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. In antiquity the region of Kosova was called Dardania, from the famous Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Fanula Papazoglu, professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish. When an important family migrated in a another country, many other followed it. It`s something that we see in our days. You know, brothers, cousins, friends arrive one after another, helping each other. Also Durres during the middle age was part of Albania Veneta and in the city there were two neighborhood, one Venetian and one Genoese. After that Durres fell in the hand of the Ottomans in year 1501, this people migrated in Italy and probably the Venetians went in Venecia and the Genoese in Genoa. And it`s high probabile that some Albanians migrated with Italians. In Venice was a large colony of Albanians from North Albania who migrated especially after the fell of Shkodra.
    1) E-V13 is very high in Kosovar Albanians. Why is this so? Who knows? It doesn't mean that E-V13 however originated in the Albanian people or should in some way be equated with Albanians. By no means. E-V13 varies drastically within Albanian populations. It is significantly higher in the Gegs (40%) than the Tosks (30%). And amongst the Arbaresh Albanians in Italy, E-V13 is not really all that common at all (only about 13%). However, 30-40% E-V13 is really not all that rare in this region of Europe. We find E-V13 at 30%+ in some parts of Bulgaria (north) & some parts of Greece (indeed the Peloponnesian peninsula registers at roughly 35% E-V13). Even in areas outside the Balkans, like in Apulia & Marche & in and around Venice (eastern Italy), you can find pockets of E-V13 at 20-30%. In Albania on the whole, most studies put E-V13 at 30-35%. This is not much different than Macedonians & Montenegrins (30% E-V13 each). There are pockets of E-V13 in various spots around southeast Europe. They don't necessarily follow any obvious ethnic or national distributional pattern. Different areas & lines might have a concentration of a particular haplo & then for whatever reason others don't. E-V13 really doesn't track any ethnicity well at all. It's common in the Balkans & Greece & somewhat common in east-central Europe & Italy but its distribution fluctuates a lot. 2) I am extremely hesitant to link E-V13 with known ethnic groups or known historical events. This is very tricky to do. It's also a bad pattern to fall into. Most human movements occurred prior to 2000-3000 years ago. E-V13 is a haplogroup that has been in Europe roughly 10,000 years. I'm much more comfortable making conservative statements like "some of the E-V13 in eastern Italy probably comes from known migrations of Illyrians from the Balkans" or "some of the E-V13 in Sicily comes from Greek Bronze Age settlements", but I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them. 3) The Hutterites are 45% E-V13. The Carpatho-Rusyns are 20-25% E-V13. Maybe they're all Albanians? LOL. Again, the reason E-V13 concentrates in an area or in a population is often hard to explain & to know. However, I do share your view that communities in Europe with higher E-V13 rates tend to be more insular & isolated. Why we see higher E-V13 in mountainous regions generally & in more insular ethnic & religious groups (Rusyns, Hutterites). Your claims about Albanians being some pure line seem to me a bunch of fluff. Albania & Kosovo were both dominated & under Ottoman control for centuries (indeed, almost half a millennium). And generally they were pretty brutal to their subjects & left a significant genetic footprint in the regions they occupied. However, most of SE Europe has been pretty successful repelling invaders. This is pretty clear just from the Y-DNA data we find there & its contrast with the west of Europe, which is far more R1b dominated. The Greeks & Bulgarians are notorious for hostilely driving out invaders through the centuries. However, the Greeks & the Bulgarians retained their culture & civilization. The Albanians (along with the Bosnians) on the other hand converted to Islam en masse. http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints

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    Yes, actually. Reinhardt Klopfer from Bietigheim, Baden-Wurttemberg, southern Germany is close (ish). That's probably the closest one. It's pretty close, but I've seen closer.

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