expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

Angela said:
Sorry, forgot to post the fourth Cavalli Sforza autosomal map. I've corrected the original post.
pc4.jpg
I'd like to know what specific subclade of E-V13 is present in Liguria, which doesn't much match this autosomal spread. Here is the E-V13 map again:
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
I wonder if it's possible that the Ligurian branch is mostly the Neolithic Cardial related one? After all, that's the route that Cardial took into more western areas of Europe...i.e. along the northern littoral of the Mediterranean from Italy and then down into Spain among other areas. The frequency in Sicily is in the interior plain, so perhaps as Mars suggested the Neolithic strains retreated before subsequent migrations?
1195px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png
Certainly, Liguria isn't significant in that Cavalli Sforza spread out from the Balkans, although perhaps it's possible it's a spread along the coast from Massalia? So, maybe the yDna track is there, but not much of an autosomal one?
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Is n't Genoua at Liguria? possibilty of migration from colonies to capital?
 
Yetos said:
Is n't Genoua at Liguria? possibilty of migration from colonies to capital?
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It's an interesting thought, but perhaps a movement of mtDna might be more likely?I think the ties of Venice to Greece and the Balkans are even stronger, yes?My cousin married a Venetian, and she had to name her son Archimedi as that was the family tradition. Poor thing, we just call him Medi. :)https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cPY08HpWdII/maxresdefault.jpg
 
There is ample E-V13 in the east of Italy. Not sure what percentage is Messapian but I'm pretty sure some is. Then of course there is the question about the origins of the North & South Picentes/Picentinis (North Picene language might not even be Indo-European oddly enough). However, Rimini and this area of north-central/central east Italy (Valmarechia) is also an e1b1b hotspot (15-20% or so) (Ferri et al), & roughly 3/4 is in all likelihood E-V13. Even higher just to the south in Marche near Ancona & Fabriano (20%) (Onofri et al). Lot of E-V13 in the east of the peninsula. Far more than in the west.
 
ESpraguer said:
There is ample E-V13 in the east of Italy. Not sure what percentage is Messapian but I'm pretty sure some is. Then of course there is the question about the origins of the North & South Picentes/Picentinis (North Picene language might not even be Indo-European oddly enough). However, Rimini and this area of north-central/central east Italy (Valmarechia) is also an e1b1b hotspot (15-20% or so) (Ferri et al), & roughly 3/4 is in all likelihood E-V13. Even higher just to the south in Marche near Ancona & Fabriano (20%) (Onofri et al). Lot of E-V13 in the east of the peninsula. Far more than in the west.
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To be honest i don't understand nothing from genetics and i prefer to read here in order to learn something. I will try to express my opinion from an historical point of view. From your post i have learn that there is a lot of E-V13 in east of italic peninsula. From the genetic map i see that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in Albania especially in Kosova. And Eastern part of Appennini is in front of Albania. There is this theory of messapians being illyrians, ok. But what we know from historical sources is that there were many migration from Albania to Italy. Illyrians fought against Romans but later they became the back bone of Roman Empire with important presence in the Roman army. There is a long list of Roman Emperors who were Illyrians.Also during the middle age there was different migrations of Albanians toward Italy. I think this explain why in the Eastern side of Peninsula there is this concentration of E-V13.
 
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LABERIA said:
To be honest i don't understand nothing from genetics and i prefer to read here in order to learn something. I will try to express my opinion from an historical point of view. From your post i have learn that there is a lot of E-V13 in east of italic peninsula. From the genetic map i see that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in Albania especially in Kosova. And Eastern part of Appennini is in front of Albania. There is this theory of messapians being illyrians, ok. But what we know from historical sources is that there were many migration from Albania to Italy. Illyrians fought against Romans but later they became the back bone of Roman Empire with important presence in the Roman army. There is a long list of Roman Emperors who were Illyrians.Also during the middle age there was different migrations of Albanians toward Italy. I think this explain why in the Eastern side of Peninsula there is this concentration of E-V13.
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That's absolutely correct. The "Adriatic Zone", if I can call it that, has been exchanging genes for a long time, as has the entire Balkan area and Italy. In fact, according to Ralph and Coop, the only significant gene flow into Italy since the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC has been from the Balkans. See: Ralph and Coophttp://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555Also, the trade between the eastern coastal areas and Greece goes back to the Mycenaeans and beyond.
 
ESpraguer said:
I think you're confused regarding the table. Northwest Italy is area 1. In this area 9.3% of all haplos are E-V13. The other E's altogether total 2.4%. That makes E-V13 just under 80% of all E in area 1. In Northeast Italy (area 2) E-V13 is 11% of all haplos (an even higher rate). There is a larger percentage of non E-V13 here however. 5.5% of haplos are non E-V13 E. That means exactly 2/3 (66.66%) of all E in NE Italy is E-V13. This is slightly lower than the Northwest but it's significantly higher than south-west & central-west Italy where E-V13 comprises only 30-50% of all E. Along the east coast of Italy as a whole, E-V13 is on average about 3/4 of all E (much like in the north as a whole). That's roughly double the % of E found in the west. The east also has about 1.5x as much E-V13 in absolute numbers (Liguria excepted).
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https://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly?iframe=yresults do you fit with any person in this ftdna link .............................. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alpine_DNA_Project_AlpGen_Genealogy?iframe=yresults .............maybe this one
 
Angela said:
There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested. I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated. This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
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From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. In antiquity the region of Kosova was called Dardania, from the famous Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Fanula Papazoglu, professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish. When an important family migrated in a another country, many other followed it. It`s something that we see in our days. You know, brothers, cousins, friends arrive one after another, helping each other. :D Also Durres during the middle age was part of Albania Veneta and in the city there were two neighborhood, one Venetian and one Genoese. After that Durres fell in the hand of the Ottomans in year 1501, this people migrated in Italy and probably the Venetians went in Venecia and the Genoese in Genoa. And it`s high probabile that some Albanians migrated with Italians. In Venice was a large colony of Albanians from North Albania who migrated especially after the fell of Shkodra.
 
LABERIA said:
From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. In antiquity the region of Kosova was called Dardania, from the famous Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Fanula Papazoglu, professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish. When an important family migrated in a another country, many other followed it. It`s something that we see in our days. You know, brothers, cousins, friends arrive one after another, helping each other. :D Also Durres during the middle age was part of Albania Veneta and in the city there were two neighborhood, one Venetian and one Genoese. After that Durres fell in the hand of the Ottomans in year 1501, this people migrated in Italy and probably the Venetians went in Venecia and the Genoese in Genoa. And it`s high probabile that some Albanians migrated with Italians. In Venice was a large colony of Albanians from North Albania who migrated especially after the fell of Shkodra.
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1) E-V13 is very high in Kosovar Albanians. Why is this so? Who knows? It doesn't mean that E-V13 however originated in the Albanian people or should in some way be equated with Albanians. By no means. E-V13 varies drastically within Albanian populations. It is significantly higher in the Gegs (40%) than the Tosks (30%). And amongst the Arbaresh Albanians in Italy, E-V13 is not really all that common at all (only about 13%). However, 30-40% E-V13 is really not all that rare in this region of Europe. We find E-V13 at 30%+ in some parts of Bulgaria (north) & some parts of Greece (indeed the Peloponnesian peninsula registers at roughly 35% E-V13). Even in areas outside the Balkans, like in Apulia & Marche & in and around Venice (eastern Italy), you can find pockets of E-V13 at 20-30%. In Albania on the whole, most studies put E-V13 at 30-35%. This is not much different than Macedonians & Montenegrins (30% E-V13 each). There are pockets of E-V13 in various spots around southeast Europe. They don't necessarily follow any obvious ethnic or national distributional pattern. Different areas & lines might have a concentration of a particular haplo & then for whatever reason others don't. E-V13 really doesn't track any ethnicity well at all. It's common in the Balkans & Greece & somewhat common in east-central Europe & Italy but its distribution fluctuates a lot. 2) I am extremely hesitant to link E-V13 with known ethnic groups or known historical events. This is very tricky to do. It's also a bad pattern to fall into. Most human movements occurred prior to 2000-3000 years ago. E-V13 is a haplogroup that has been in Europe roughly 10,000 years. I'm much more comfortable making conservative statements like "some of the E-V13 in eastern Italy probably comes from known migrations of Illyrians from the Balkans" or "some of the E-V13 in Sicily comes from Greek Bronze Age settlements", but I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them. 3) The Hutterites are 45% E-V13. The Carpatho-Rusyns are 20-25% E-V13. Maybe they're all Albanians? LOL. Again, the reason E-V13 concentrates in an area or in a population is often hard to explain & to know. However, I do share your view that communities in Europe with higher E-V13 rates tend to be more insular & isolated. Why we see higher E-V13 in mountainous regions generally & in more insular ethnic & religious groups (Rusyns, Hutterites). Your claims about Albanians being some pure line seem to me a bunch of fluff. Albania & Kosovo were both dominated & under Ottoman control for centuries (indeed, almost half a millennium). And generally they were pretty brutal to their subjects & left a significant genetic footprint in the regions they occupied. However, most of SE Europe has been pretty successful repelling invaders. This is pretty clear just from the Y-DNA data we find there & its contrast with the west of Europe, which is far more R1b dominated. The Greeks & Bulgarians are notorious for hostilely driving out invaders through the centuries. However, the Greeks & the Bulgarians retained their culture & civilization. The Albanians (along with the Bosnians) on the other hand converted to Islam en masse. http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=humbiol_preprints
 
Yes, actually. Reinhardt Klopfer from Bietigheim, Baden-Wurttemberg, southern Germany is close (ish). That's probably the closest one. It's pretty close, but I've seen closer.
 
With the very few E-V13 ancient samples we have to hand, and none from Neolithic Italy or the southern Balkans, we do not currently, imo, have the evidence to make a statement like: " I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them." Constantly repeating one's "hunches" is not anymore persuasive the sixth time it's said than it was the first time. Of course, there are a few papers on ancient Italian dna in the pipeline, so the proof may be right around the corner.In addition, while it's clear that certain groups in the Balkans converted to Islam, I've never seen any genetic evidence from reputable scientific sources for significant absorption of Turks. We expect people who post here to produce evidence for their statements, and not to make provocative comments about other ethnicities. Plus, that subject is off topic for this thread.
 
1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.
 
ESpraguer said:
1) E-V13 is very high in Kosovar Albanians. Why is this so? Who knows? It doesn't mean that E-V13 however originated in the Albanian people or should in some way be equated with Albanians. By no means. E-V13 varies drastically within Albanian populations. It is significantly higher in the Gegs (40%) than the Tosks (30%). And amongst the Arbaresh Albanians in Italy, E-V13 is not really all that common at all (only about 13%). However, 30-40% E-V13 is really not all that rare in this region of Europe. We find E-V13 at 30%+ in some parts of Bulgaria (north) & some parts of Greece (indeed the Peloponnesian peninsula registers at roughly 35% E-V13). Even in areas outside the Balkans, like in Apulia & Marche & in and around Venice (eastern Italy), you can find pockets of E-V13 at 20-30%. In Albania on the whole, most studies put E-V13 at 30-35%. This is not much different than Macedonians & Montenegrins (30% E-V13 each). There are pockets of E-V13 in various spots around southeast Europe. They don't necessarily follow any obvious ethnic or national distributional pattern. Different areas & lines might have a concentration of a particular haplo & then for whatever reason others don't. E-V13 really doesn't track any ethnicity well at all. It's common in the Balkans & Greece & somewhat common in east-central Europe & Italy but its distribution fluctuates a lot. 2) I am extremely hesitant to link E-V13 with known ethnic groups or known historical events. This is very tricky to do. It's also a bad pattern to fall into. Most human movements occurred prior to 2000-3000 years ago. E-V13 is a haplogroup that has been in Europe roughly 10,000 years. I'm much more comfortable making conservative statements like "some of the E-V13 in eastern Italy probably comes from known migrations of Illyrians from the Balkans" or "some of the E-V13 in Sicily comes from Greek Bronze Age settlements", but I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them. 3) The Hutterites are 45% E-V13. The Carpatho-Rusyns are 20-25% E-V13. Maybe they're all Albanians? LOL. Again, the reason E-V13 concentrates in an area or in a population is often hard to explain & to know. However, I do share your view that communities in Europe with higher E-V13 rates tend to be more insular & isolated. Why we see higher E-V13 in mountainous regions generally & in more insular ethnic & religious groups (Rusyns, Hutterites). Your claims about Albanians being some pure line seem to me a bunch of fluff. Albania & Kosovo were both dominated & under Ottoman control for centuries (indeed, almost half a millennium). And generally they were pretty brutal to their subjects & left a significant genetic footprint in the regions they occupied. However, most of SE Europe has been pretty successful repelling invaders. This is pretty clear just from the Y-DNA data we find there & its contrast with the west of Europe, which is far more R1b dominated. The Greeks & Bulgarians are notorious for hostilely driving out invaders through the centuries. However, the Greeks & the Bulgarians retained their culture & civilization. The Albanians (along with the Bosnians) on the other hand converted to Islam en masse. http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=humbiol_preprints
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I have some doubt about your knowledge regards the history of the Balkan region, particularly for the period of Ottoman occupation. But this thread has nothing to do with the Ottoman invasion and i don`t intend to derail this thread with this kind of discussion. Just to say that from your post is evident that you don`t know this part of history.
I don`t claim any kind of ethnic purity. I have expressed my opinion about this, but since you are a new member let me repeat it. Albanians are a nation with important but not decisive admixtures with other nation.
About the period of Ottoman occupation let me quote an Bulgar scholar:

Antonina Zhelyazkova's paper: Islamization in the Balkans as a Historiographical Problem: the Southeast-European Perspective in: The Ottomans and the Balkans, A Discussion of Historiography ed. Fikret Adanir, Suraiya Faroqhi

p 240-244

Ottoman residents in the Albanian provinces

As to the colonization of Albania by Muslims from Anatolia or Istanbul, the numbers involved were insignificant compared to the population movements occurring in Thrace, Macedonia and Bulgaria. An Ottoman tax register from the year 1432, one of the oldest of its kind to survive, contains data about the settlement of people from Anatolia in the newly conquered Ottoman province of Arranid, in modern Albania.37 Some of these were military men from the Anatolian sub-provinces of Saruhan (modern Manisa), Konya and Canik (modern Samsun), appointed to administer timars. Others were officers of fortress garrisons (mustahfiz); thus the mustahfiz of Iskarpara (today's Skrapari) came from Saruhan. Given the dangerously unstable situation in Albania at the time, these appointments probably constituted exile more than rewards for military merit or loyalty to the sultan. In all likelihood, we are not wrong in suspecting that some of these people were appointed to Albanian timars in order to remove them from the province in which they had a local following or from the Ottoman capital. Even so, these men were expected to found the first Muslim centers in Albania, which later would represent the sultan's power and defend the interests of the Ottoman state. Anatolian peasants as well as dervish missionaries sporadically established themselves as well, for instance in the sub-province of Dukagin.
Governing Albanian districts on behalf of the sultan must have been a daunting task. Certain Catholic clans of northern Albania sometimes refused to admit the officials who were to compile the tax registers, that mainstay of Ottoman provincial administration. It also was not unknown for certain clans to declare themselves Muslims while continuing to observe Catholic rituals. This inclination must have wreaked havoc with the registration process, which, after all, was based on the differentiation between Muslims and non-Muslims. Even in the Shkoder district, of special importance to the central administration on account of its strategic location on the Adriatic coast, Ottoman control of the mountain villages was shaky at best. Given these difficulties, the Ottoman government attempted to institute a minimal control over, and communication with, the population of mountain settlements by integrating their leaders into its own administrative hierarchy. An Albanian elder when thus coopted, was entered into the tax registers as a timar-holder, and de jure shared the rights and responsibilities of these warrior-administrators. In practice, however, he often must have defended the interests of the closed peasant or herding community from which he came, while seeing to the timely payment of taxes and the recruitment of soldiers for the Ottoman armies. In this fashion, imperial power could be exercised in a mode acceptable in terms of the local laws and established social organization.

I can give you some examples of the mixing of population among our neighbors, but i don`t think this is the case.
The problem with you and many other people is that you judge about other people not starting from the knowledge you have accumulated after reading serious authors, but on the basis of inaccurate stereotypes. Conversion in Islam does not mean mixing of population. There was no turkish settlements in Albania. Albanians didn`t mix with turks. Usually when a Turk was assigned to go in Albania, this was considered a punishment. And Bosnians are a different nation from Albanians. They are slavs.
 
ESpraguer said:
1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.
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This is totally inaccurate. Try to read carefully my post. I quoted an scholar who is greek ancestry and citizen of ex-Yugoslavia professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, so an unbiased source:


LABERIA said:
Fanula Papazoglu, professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131).
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Where you have read this genetic purity in my post?
 
ESpraguer said:
1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.
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As you are new, I'm going to just give you a warning this time. Insulting a member results in an infraction. Insulting or provoking a team member results in an infraction that carries even more consequences. Cut it out.

You're free to believe you have solved all the riddles of E-V13. You may even be correct. I just don't think the evidence we have so far is persuasive, especially given the clear signs of a very large expansion in the Bronze Age. What I don't understand, as I said, is why you keep beating this drum. Your position is clear. Repeating the same data and points in post after post isn't going to persuade anyone who wasn't persuaded the first time.

As for the rest, stay on topic, and provide citations from reputable sources for the claims you make. Oh, and no gratuitous, off topic, provocative comments about other ethnicities.

@Laberia,
You say you don't want to de-rail the thread and then proceed to do so. The next off-topic post will be deleted.
 
Albania Veneta was mostly comprised of modern Montenegro lands with some Albanian lands ...............there where no Montenegro at the time as montenegrians comprised of a mix of croats, albanians, dalmatians and serbians

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Venetian_Albania

Montenegro is a venetian word coming from monte=mountains and negro =black ............it was used as a geographical marker for sailors .

Durres is in Albania proper foundered by Greeks after they won the war against the liburnians ...........the greeks also took Corfu
founded as Epidamnos in the year 627 BC by ancient Greek[6]
Butrint is the other Albanian city owned by the Venetians
known as Bouthroton was originally a town within the Adriatic Balkan region of Epirus. It was one of the major centres of the Greek tribe of the Chaonians,[4]


E-V13 is so far downstream from E-M35 that it is ridiculous to even link the 2 for any historical purposes in regards to migrational paths



yfull has the following

E-L618 CTS2003 * Y3763/FGC11427 * CTS6178+55 SNPsformed 12100 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybpinfo
  • E-L618*
    • id:YF03299LVA [LV-BU]
  • E-V13 Y3764/FGC14553 * V13/PF2211 * CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053+35 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo
    • id:YF07626new
    • id:YF07623new
    • id:YF05464
    • id:ERS256006ITA [IT-CA]
    • id:ERS255990ITA [IT-CA]
    • id:YF04880
    • id:YF04752
    • id:YF02828
    • E-V13*
    • E-Z38518 Y16728 * Y16715 * Y16730+22 SNPsformed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo
      • id:YF03923
      • id:YF03221IRL



ERS = sardianian studies
YF = members of Big Y
HG = from YHRD

ybp starts in the year 1950AD
 
ESpraguer said:
"In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish."

"Racial/genetic purity"... wherever did I get that thought from? Well, let's see:

Claim 1 translated: Basically, we are the purest of the Balkan people.
Claim 2: Dardanians are the most stable & conservative ethnic element in the Balkans, indicating ethnic purity, continuity, & minimal external genetic input.
Claim 3: "Alone among the Balkans", again suggesting they are of the purest Balkan type.
Claim 4: Maintained themselves as "an ethnic unity". W/e that means it sure sounds a lot like ethnic preservation & racial purity.
Claim 5: "...the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old At the end of the ancient world". So, the Dardanians were the source population for the reconstitution of the Balkan people. Not only are we the purest, but we are the root of all others! LOL.

LOL. Wherever could I get this idea about Kosovar Albanian ethnic purity? LOL.

Now let me elucidate some of the problems I have with your points & their link to this discussion:

1) I'm nowhere near ready to connect the ancient Dardanians with modern Kosovars.Tribes shift, move, migrate, are wiped out & reconstitute themselves over and over again in a region. Just because an area happened to be occupied by a tribe 2000 years or so ago, doesn't mean that area is still occupied by that tribe or its descendants. Actually, in light of the history of the Balkans with its many conflicts & upheavals, this seems rather unlikely. I'd say you undoubtedly implied a link between Dardanians & modern Kosovars, even if you didn't spell it out clearly.
2) Even if we take some of this "Greek" professor's ideas concerning the region seriously or at face value, they sound speculative to the extreme. There are a million reasons professors believe this or that. Even reputable geneticists, who are supposed to be hard scientists, are constantly writing conjectural lunacy down that turns out to be completely divorced from reality after new data or good direct data emerges. Combine this with the unreliability and imprecision of 2000 year old records & this makes the connections between ancient Dardanians and Albanians/Kosovars all the more tenuous. Ans when historians talk about "ethnic unity" or anything quasi-genetic in nature, it's pretty much always conjecture.
3) That a group has slightly higher Y haplo rate is not strong evidence that this group is the source point for the haplogroup. It's hardly even weak evidence. Why some haplogroup concentrates in a particular place or ethnic group is sometimes for very peculiar reasons. At other times, it's difficult to explain. As stated, there are a lot of groups far from the Balkans with high E-V13 rates & there are many other areas in SE Europe with similar high levels of E-V13. Sometimes this is due to founder effects. The progenitors or founders of a group, tribe or region happen to have this haplo or that one, & voila, group members down the line also have elevated rates.
4) I simply can't compete with your extensive knowledge regarding crack-pot Albanian historians. No way. Your knowledge in that arena is unrivaled.
5) Bosnians are Slavs because they speak a Slavic language. But if you take DNA seriously, which I do, I'm really not sure I'd call Bosnians Slavs at all. In fact, this final point speaks to the divide between your points & mine. I'm trying to talk about Y-DNA, which is what I thought this thread was about.
Click to expand...

Dardanians lived in what is now modern Kosovo.............they where a separate ethnic group , more Moesian than thracian or macedonian or even Illyrian ..........my guess is that the moesians/dardanians a linked with the Paeonians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)

The Dardani where destroyed by the Bastarnae ( people invited by the macedonians to wipe out the Dardanians )......story also confirmed by Roman scholars

The Bastarnae crossed the Danube in huge numbers and although they didn't meet the Macedonians, they continued the campaign. Some 30,000 Bastarnae under the command of Clondicus seem to have defeated the Dardani.[27] In 179 BC, the Bastarnae conquered the Dardani, who later in 174 pushed them out, in a war which proved catastrophic, with a few years later, in 170 BC, the Macedonians defeating the Dardani.[28]
 
@ Sile & ESpraguer, both you are wrong but:
Angela said:
@Laberia,
You say you don't want to de-rail the thread and then proceed to do so. The next off-topic post will be deleted.
Click to expand...
If you want open a new thread and let`s discuss about this issues.
 
LABERIA said:
@ Sile & ESpraguer, both you are wrong but:

If you want open a new thread and let`s discuss about this issues.
Click to expand...

pardon, where wrong......albania-veneta?


we cannot discuss this issue, because you will deflect it to albanians, ( not again ) when we are talking about dardanians and the E-v13 in that area
 
Sile said:
Albania Veneta was mostly comprised of modern Montenegro lands with some Albanian lands ...............there where no Montenegro at the time as montenegrians comprised of a mix of croats, albanians, dalmatians and serbians

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Venetian_Albania

Montenegro is a venetian word coming from monte=mountains and negro =black ............it was used as a geographical marker for sailors .

Durres is in Albania proper foundered by Greeks after they won the war against the liburnians ...........the greeks also took Corfu
founded as Epidamnos in the year 627 BC by ancient Greek[6]
Butrint is the other Albanian city owned by the Venetians
known as Bouthroton was originally a town within the Adriatic Balkan region of Epirus. It was one of the major centres of the Greek tribe of the Chaonians,[4]


E-V13 is so far downstream from E-M35 that it is ridiculous to even link the 2 for any historical purposes in regards to migrational paths



yfull has the following

E-L618 CTS2003 * Y3763/FGC11427 * CTS6178+55 SNPsformed 12100 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybpinfo
  • E-L618*
    • id:YF03299LVA [LV-BU]
  • E-V13 Y3764/FGC14553 * V13/PF2211 * CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053+35 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo
    • id:YF07626new
    • id:YF07623new
    • id:YF05464
    • id:ERS256006ITA [IT-CA]
    • id:ERS255990ITA [IT-CA]
    • id:YF04880
    • id:YF04752
    • id:YF02828
    • E-V13*
    • E-Z38518 Y16728 * Y16715 * Y16730+22 SNPsformed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo
      • id:YF03923
      • id:YF03221IRL



ERS = sardianian studies
YF = members of Big Y
HG = from YHRD

ybp starts in the year 1950AD
Click to expand...

Sile, it is very good you are using Yfull, it's the most updated Y site, it would be hard to refute the Y tree of Yfull.
 
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