Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 82

Thread: expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

  1. #51
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,315
    Points
    280,306
    Level
    100
    Points: 280,306, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    With the very few E-V13 ancient samples we have to hand, and none from Neolithic Italy or the southern Balkans, we do not currently, imo, have the evidence to make a statement like: " I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them." Constantly repeating one's "hunches" is not anymore persuasive the sixth time it's said than it was the first time. Of course, there are a few papers on ancient Italian dna in the pipeline, so the proof may be right around the corner.In addition, while it's clear that certain groups in the Balkans converted to Islam, I've never seen any genetic evidence from reputable scientific sources for significant absorption of Turks. We expect people who post here to produce evidence for their statements, and not to make provocative comments about other ethnicities. Plus, that subject is off topic for this thread.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #52
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-16
    Posts
    49
    Points
    426
    Level
    4
    Points: 426, Level: 4
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 24
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J

    Ethnic group
    South-German
    Country: USA - Idaho



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,058
    Points
    5,204
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,204, Level: 21
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    1) E-V13 is very high in Kosovar Albanians. Why is this so? Who knows? It doesn't mean that E-V13 however originated in the Albanian people or should in some way be equated with Albanians. By no means. E-V13 varies drastically within Albanian populations. It is significantly higher in the Gegs (40%) than the Tosks (30%). And amongst the Arbaresh Albanians in Italy, E-V13 is not really all that common at all (only about 13%). However, 30-40% E-V13 is really not all that rare in this region of Europe. We find E-V13 at 30%+ in some parts of Bulgaria (north) & some parts of Greece (indeed the Peloponnesian peninsula registers at roughly 35% E-V13). Even in areas outside the Balkans, like in Apulia & Marche & in and around Venice (eastern Italy), you can find pockets of E-V13 at 20-30%. In Albania on the whole, most studies put E-V13 at 30-35%. This is not much different than Macedonians & Montenegrins (30% E-V13 each). There are pockets of E-V13 in various spots around southeast Europe. They don't necessarily follow any obvious ethnic or national distributional pattern. Different areas & lines might have a concentration of a particular haplo & then for whatever reason others don't. E-V13 really doesn't track any ethnicity well at all. It's common in the Balkans & Greece & somewhat common in east-central Europe & Italy but its distribution fluctuates a lot. 2) I am extremely hesitant to link E-V13 with known ethnic groups or known historical events. This is very tricky to do. It's also a bad pattern to fall into. Most human movements occurred prior to 2000-3000 years ago. E-V13 is a haplogroup that has been in Europe roughly 10,000 years. I'm much more comfortable making conservative statements like "some of the E-V13 in eastern Italy probably comes from known migrations of Illyrians from the Balkans" or "some of the E-V13 in Sicily comes from Greek Bronze Age settlements", but I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them. 3) The Hutterites are 45% E-V13. The Carpatho-Rusyns are 20-25% E-V13. Maybe they're all Albanians? LOL. Again, the reason E-V13 concentrates in an area or in a population is often hard to explain & to know. However, I do share your view that communities in Europe with higher E-V13 rates tend to be more insular & isolated. Why we see higher E-V13 in mountainous regions generally & in more insular ethnic & religious groups (Rusyns, Hutterites). Your claims about Albanians being some pure line seem to me a bunch of fluff. Albania & Kosovo were both dominated & under Ottoman control for centuries (indeed, almost half a millennium). And generally they were pretty brutal to their subjects & left a significant genetic footprint in the regions they occupied. However, most of SE Europe has been pretty successful repelling invaders. This is pretty clear just from the Y-DNA data we find there & its contrast with the west of Europe, which is far more R1b dominated. The Greeks & Bulgarians are notorious for hostilely driving out invaders through the centuries. However, the Greeks & the Bulgarians retained their culture & civilization. The Albanians (along with the Bosnians) on the other hand converted to Islam en masse. http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints
    I have some doubt about your knowledge regards the history of the Balkan region, particularly for the period of Ottoman occupation. But this thread has nothing to do with the Ottoman invasion and i don`t intend to derail this thread with this kind of discussion. Just to say that from your post is evident that you don`t know this part of history.
    I don`t claim any kind of ethnic purity. I have expressed my opinion about this, but since you are a new member let me repeat it. Albanians are a nation with important but not decisive admixtures with other nation.
    About the period of Ottoman occupation let me quote an Bulgar scholar:

    Antonina Zhelyazkova's paper: Islamization in the Balkans as a Historiographical Problem: the Southeast-European Perspective in: The Ottomans and the Balkans, A Discussion of Historiography ed. Fikret Adanir, Suraiya Faroqhi

    p 240-244

    Ottoman residents in the Albanian provinces

    As to the colonization of Albania by Muslims from Anatolia or Istanbul, the numbers involved were insignificant compared to the population movements occurring in Thrace, Macedonia and Bulgaria. An Ottoman tax register from the year 1432, one of the oldest of its kind to survive, contains data about the settlement of people from Anatolia in the newly conquered Ottoman province of Arranid, in modern Albania.37 Some of these were military men from the Anatolian sub-provinces of Saruhan (modern Manisa), Konya and Canik (modern Samsun), appointed to administer timars. Others were officers of fortress garrisons (mustahfiz); thus the mustahfiz of Iskarpara (today's Skrapari) came from Saruhan. Given the dangerously unstable situation in Albania at the time, these appointments probably constituted exile more than rewards for military merit or loyalty to the sultan. In all likelihood, we are not wrong in suspecting that some of these people were appointed to Albanian timars in order to remove them from the province in which they had a local following or from the Ottoman capital. Even so, these men were expected to found the first Muslim centers in Albania, which later would represent the sultan's power and defend the interests of the Ottoman state. Anatolian peasants as well as dervish missionaries sporadically established themselves as well, for instance in the sub-province of Dukagin.
    Governing Albanian districts on behalf of the sultan must have been a daunting task. Certain Catholic clans of northern Albania sometimes refused to admit the officials who were to compile the tax registers, that mainstay of Ottoman provincial administration. It also was not unknown for certain clans to declare themselves Muslims while continuing to observe Catholic rituals. This inclination must have wreaked havoc with the registration process, which, after all, was based on the differentiation between Muslims and non-Muslims. Even in the Shkoder district, of special importance to the central administration on account of its strategic location on the Adriatic coast, Ottoman control of the mountain villages was shaky at best. Given these difficulties, the Ottoman government attempted to institute a minimal control over, and communication with, the population of mountain settlements by integrating their leaders into its own administrative hierarchy. An Albanian elder when thus coopted, was entered into the tax registers as a timar-holder, and de jure shared the rights and responsibilities of these warrior-administrators. In practice, however, he often must have defended the interests of the closed peasant or herding community from which he came, while seeing to the timely payment of taxes and the recruitment of soldiers for the Ottoman armies. In this fashion, imperial power could be exercised in a mode acceptable in terms of the local laws and established social organization.

    I can give you some examples of the mixing of population among our neighbors, but i don`t think this is the case.
    The problem with you and many other people is that you judge about other people not starting from the knowledge you have accumulated after reading serious authors, but on the basis of inaccurate stereotypes. Conversion in Islam does not mean mixing of population. There was no turkish settlements in Albania. Albanians didn`t mix with turks. Usually when a Turk was assigned to go in Albania, this was considered a punishment. And Bosnians are a different nation from Albanians. They are slavs.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

  4. #54
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,058
    Points
    5,204
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,204, Level: 21
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.
    This is totally inaccurate. Try to read carefully my post. I quoted an scholar who is greek ancestry and citizen of ex-Yugoslavia professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, so an unbiased source:


    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Fanula Papazoglu, professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131).
    Where you have read this genetic purity in my post?

  5. #55
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,315
    Points
    280,306
    Level
    100
    Points: 280,306, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.
    As you are new, I'm going to just give you a warning this time. Insulting a member results in an infraction. Insulting or provoking a team member results in an infraction that carries even more consequences. Cut it out.

    You're free to believe you have solved all the riddles of E-V13. You may even be correct. I just don't think the evidence we have so far is persuasive, especially given the clear signs of a very large expansion in the Bronze Age. What I don't understand, as I said, is why you keep beating this drum. Your position is clear. Repeating the same data and points in post after post isn't going to persuade anyone who wasn't persuaded the first time.

    As for the rest, stay on topic, and provide citations from reputable sources for the claims you make. Oh, and no gratuitous, off topic, provocative comments about other ethnicities.

    @Laberia,
    You say you don't want to de-rail the thread and then proceed to do so. The next off-topic post will be deleted.

  6. #56
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Albania Veneta was mostly comprised of modern Montenegro lands with some Albanian lands ...............there where no Montenegro at the time as montenegrians comprised of a mix of croats, albanians, dalmatians and serbians

    http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Venetian_Albania

    Montenegro is a venetian word coming from monte=mountains and negro =black ............it was used as a geographical marker for sailors .

    Durres is in Albania proper foundered by Greeks after they won the war against the liburnians ...........the greeks also took Corfu
    founded as Epidamnos in the year 627 BC by ancient Greek[6]



    Butrint is the other Albanian city owned by the Venetians
    known as
    Bouthroton was originally a town within the Adriatic Balkan region of Epirus. It was one of the major centres of the Greek tribe of the Chaonians,[4]


    E-V13 is so far downstream from E-M35 that it is ridiculous to even link the 2 for any historical purposes in regards to migrational paths



    yfull has the following

    E-L618 CTS2003 * Y3763/FGC11427 * CTS6178+55 SNPsformed 12100 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybpinfo
    • E-L618*
      • id:YF03299LVA [LV-BU]

    • E-V13 Y3764/FGC14553 * V13/PF2211 * CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053+35 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo
      • id:YF07626new
      • id:YF07623new
      • id:YF05464
      • id:ERS256006ITA [IT-CA]
      • id:ERS255990ITA [IT-CA]
      • id:YF04880
      • id:YF04752
      • id:YF02828
      • E-V13*
      • E-Z38518 Y16728 * Y16715 * Y16730+22 SNPsformed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo
        • id:YF03923
        • id:YF03221IRL






    ERS = sardianian studies
    YF = members of Big Y
    HG = from YHRD

    ybp starts in the year 1950AD
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  7. #57
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    "In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish."

    "Racial/genetic purity"... wherever did I get that thought from? Well, let's see:

    Claim 1 translated: Basically, we are the purest of the Balkan people.
    Claim 2: Dardanians are the most stable & conservative ethnic element in the Balkans, indicating ethnic purity, continuity, & minimal external genetic input.
    Claim 3: "Alone among the Balkans", again suggesting they are of the purest Balkan type.
    Claim 4: Maintained themselves as "an ethnic unity". W/e that means it sure sounds a lot like ethnic preservation & racial purity.
    Claim 5: "...the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old At the end of the ancient world". So, the Dardanians were the source population for the reconstitution of the Balkan people. Not only are we the purest, but we are the root of all others! LOL.

    LOL. Wherever could I get this idea about Kosovar Albanian ethnic purity? LOL.

    Now let me elucidate some of the problems I have with your points & their link to this discussion:

    1) I'm nowhere near ready to connect the ancient Dardanians with modern Kosovars.Tribes shift, move, migrate, are wiped out & reconstitute themselves over and over again in a region. Just because an area happened to be occupied by a tribe 2000 years or so ago, doesn't mean that area is still occupied by that tribe or its descendants. Actually, in light of the history of the Balkans with its many conflicts & upheavals, this seems rather unlikely. I'd say you undoubtedly implied a link between Dardanians & modern Kosovars, even if you didn't spell it out clearly.
    2) Even if we take some of this "Greek" professor's ideas concerning the region seriously or at face value, they sound speculative to the extreme. There are a million reasons professors believe this or that. Even reputable geneticists, who are supposed to be hard scientists, are constantly writing conjectural lunacy down that turns out to be completely divorced from reality after new data or good direct data emerges. Combine this with the unreliability and imprecision of 2000 year old records & this makes the connections between ancient Dardanians and Albanians/Kosovars all the more tenuous. Ans when historians talk about "ethnic unity" or anything quasi-genetic in nature, it's pretty much always conjecture.
    3) That a group has slightly higher Y haplo rate is not strong evidence that this group is the source point for the haplogroup. It's hardly even weak evidence. Why some haplogroup concentrates in a particular place or ethnic group is sometimes for very peculiar reasons. At other times, it's difficult to explain. As stated, there are a lot of groups far from the Balkans with high E-V13 rates & there are many other areas in SE Europe with similar high levels of E-V13. Sometimes this is due to founder effects. The progenitors or founders of a group, tribe or region happen to have this haplo or that one, & voila, group members down the line also have elevated rates.
    4) I simply can't compete with your extensive knowledge regarding crack-pot Albanian historians. No way. Your knowledge in that arena is unrivaled.
    5) Bosnians are Slavs because they speak a Slavic language. But if you take DNA seriously, which I do, I'm really not sure I'd call Bosnians Slavs at all. In fact, this final point speaks to the divide between your points & mine. I'm trying to talk about Y-DNA, which is what I thought this thread was about.
    Dardanians lived in what is now modern Kosovo.............they where a separate ethnic group , more Moesian than thracian or macedonian or even Illyrian ..........my guess is that the moesians/dardanians a linked with the Paeonians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)

    The Dardani where destroyed by the Bastarnae ( people invited by the macedonians to wipe out the Dardanians )......story also confirmed by Roman scholars

    The Bastarnae crossed the Danube in huge numbers and although they didn't meet the Macedonians, they continued the campaign. Some 30,000 Bastarnae under the command of Clondicus seem to have defeated the Dardani.[27] In 179 BC, the Bastarnae conquered the Dardani, who later in 174 pushed them out, in a war which proved catastrophic, with a few years later, in 170 BC, the Macedonians defeating the Dardani.[28]

  8. #58
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,058
    Points
    5,204
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,204, Level: 21
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    @ Sile & ESpraguer, both you are wrong but:
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    @Laberia,
    You say you don't want to de-rail the thread and then proceed to do so. The next off-topic post will be deleted.
    If you want open a new thread and let`s discuss about this issues.

  9. #59
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    @ Sile & ESpraguer, both you are wrong but:

    If you want open a new thread and let`s discuss about this issues.
    pardon, where wrong......albania-veneta?


    we cannot discuss this issue, because you will deflect it to albanians, ( not again ) when we are talking about dardanians and the E-v13 in that area

  10. #60
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Albania Veneta was mostly comprised of modern Montenegro lands with some Albanian lands ...............there where no Montenegro at the time as montenegrians comprised of a mix of croats, albanians, dalmatians and serbians

    http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Venetian_Albania

    Montenegro is a venetian word coming from monte=mountains and negro =black ............it was used as a geographical marker for sailors .

    Durres is in Albania proper foundered by Greeks after they won the war against the liburnians ...........the greeks also took Corfu
    founded as Epidamnos in the year 627 BC by ancient Greek[6]



    Butrint is the other Albanian city owned by the Venetians
    known as
    Bouthroton was originally a town within the Adriatic Balkan region of Epirus. It was one of the major centres of the Greek tribe of the Chaonians,[4]


    E-V13 is so far downstream from E-M35 that it is ridiculous to even link the 2 for any historical purposes in regards to migrational paths



    yfull has the following

    E-L618 CTS2003 * Y3763/FGC11427 * CTS6178+55 SNPsformed 12100 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybpinfo
    • E-L618*
      • id:YF03299LVA [LV-BU]

    • E-V13 Y3764/FGC14553 * V13/PF2211 * CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053+35 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo
      • id:YF07626new
      • id:YF07623new
      • id:YF05464
      • id:ERS256006ITA [IT-CA]
      • id:ERS255990ITA [IT-CA]
      • id:YF04880
      • id:YF04752
      • id:YF02828
      • E-V13*
      • E-Z38518 Y16728 * Y16715 * Y16730+22 SNPsformed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo
        • id:YF03923
        • id:YF03221IRL






    ERS = sardianian studies
    YF = members of Big Y
    HG = from YHRD

    ybp starts in the year 1950AD
    Sile, it is very good you are using Yfull, it's the most updated Y site, it would be hard to refute the Y tree of Yfull.

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,058
    Points
    5,204
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,204, Level: 21
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    pardon, where wrong......albania-veneta?


    we cannot discuss this issue, because you will deflect it to albanians, ( not again ) when we are talking about dardanians and the E-v13 in that area
    Excuse me?

  12. #62
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Excuse me?
    ?

    there was no montenegro name for the populace..........the original coastal people where under the ZETA and the other montegro part had albanians and serbs ......the inner part of Montenegro ( no coastal access ) was called HUM

    Kotor ( or cattaro in bocca , venetian name ) belonged to ZETA

    clearly they had to call montenegro at that time Albania-Veneta

    ~1670 the term Montenegro was used to incorporate ZETA with HUM under the family of: Danilo I Petrović-Njegoš (1697–1735)

    officially the term Montenegro was accept by the west in :
    The Principality of Montenegro (Serbian: Књажевина Црнa Горa/Knjaževina Crna Gora) that existed from 13 March 1852

    but I am deflecting...................the question was about Dardanians and their E-V13

  13. #63
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,058
    Points
    5,204
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,204, Level: 21
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ?

    there was no montenegro name for the populace..........the original coastal people where under the ZETA and the other montegro part had albanians and serbs ......the inner part of Montenegro ( no coastal access ) was called HUM

    Kotor ( or cattaro in bocca , venetian name ) belonged to ZETA

    clearly they had to call montenegro at that time Albania-Veneta

    ~1670 the term Montenegro was used to incorporate ZETA with HUM under the family of: Danilo I Petrović-Njegoš (1697–1735)

    officially the term Montenegro was accept by the west in :
    The Principality of Montenegro (Serbian: Књажевина Црнa Горa/Knjaževina Crna Gora) that existed from 13 March 1852

    but I am deflecting...................the question was about Dardanians and their E-V13
    Yes, as usually you deflect and start to speak about things that you don't know.
    And what are going to discuss here about Chinese or the interesting story told to you by an presumed Albanian friend in Australia about bastarnae?

  14. #64
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    06-04-17
    Location
    Virgina
    Posts
    24
    Points
    1,458
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,458, Level: 10
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-CTS9320
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H48 (mt Y HG I2b1)

    Ethnic group
    FTDNA 100% S.Eastern EU;Ancestral matches:UK/Germany; AncestryDNA: 86% Italian/greek the rest E.EU
    Country: United States



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. .
    That map is very misleading due to fast changing demographics in last 1000 years in Balkan.

    More specific

    Well after Illyrians, there is ~200 years of Bulgarian empire. Local population has moved up north Drin river, becoming nomads back & forth, herding.
    After Bulgarians, Serbs over run the entire area all the way down to Greece. In Kosovo they were the absolute majority till 1700 or later. In what's now Albania slavs were a good percentage of population. So, E-V13 couldn't have been big back then, by any means (R1a, Ia2a must have dominated).

    Not to mention barbarians like Normans (50-100) years, Visigoths etc....

    Then we have Venice, creating Albania Veneta for centuries, while Serbs got the northern part.
    Kingdom Of Albania under Naples having middle Albania
    Greeks coming and going in south Albania.

    High percentage of E-V13 in Kosovo is very very recent event. And by all accounts Montenegro seems to be the spreading center....

    Most likely Dardanians may have had E-v13 but so far no evidence of it or what HGs.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Gabriele Pashaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-17
    Posts
    251
    Points
    2,669
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,669, Level: 14
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 81
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Albania



    Very interesting!

  16. #66
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-02-18
    Location
    Nyírbátor, Szabolcs county
    Posts
    85
    Points
    1,586
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,586, Level: 11
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    And he is right. The EV13 formed 7600 ybp. TMRCA 5000 ybp. We don't know any tribe from this age (Calcholitic) by name. This is the age was before the indo-europeans had arrived. We don't even know where EV13 lived, where they wandered. I think the EV13 home was somewhere in today's Ukraine, Romania or Hungary.

    For example the CTS9320 (like drroots or me) is much younger branch. Formed 3700 ybp. TMRCA 3000 ybp. This was the age of the war of Troy. But we don't know yet where was the CTS9320 homeland, and which cultures, tribes beared this mutation. I think this was still Central Europe. (proto-illyrians, thracians, cimmerians? Or Hallstatt celts?)

    But that's just guesswork as long as there is not much more Full Genom Sequence results (BigY, WGS or other.)

  17. #67
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Gabriele Pashaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-17
    Posts
    251
    Points
    2,669
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,669, Level: 14
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 81
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    And he is right. The EV13 formed 7600 ybp. TMRCA 5000 ybp. We don't know any tribe from this age (Calcholitic) by name. This is the age was before the indo-europeans had arrived. We don't even know where EV13 lived, where they wandered. I think the EV13 home was somewhere in today's Ukraine, Romania or Hungary.

    For example the CTS9320 (like drroots or me) is much younger branch. Formed 3700 ybp. TMRCA 3000 ybp. This was the age of the war of Troy. But we don't know yet where was the CTS9320 homeland, and which cultures, tribes beared this mutation. I think this was still Central Europe. (proto-illyrians, thracians, cimmerians? Or Hallstatt celts?)

    But that's just guesswork as long as there is not much more Full Genom Sequence results (BigY, WGS or other.)
    So ... the people that had the ydna Ev-13 inhabited the central part of Europe and then decided to go south .... very intriguing

  18. #68
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by drroots View Post
    That map is very misleading due to fast changing demographics in last 1000 years in Balkan.

    More specific

    In Kosovo they were the absolute majority till 1700 or later.
    100% fabrication. Serbs were not an absolute majority until 1700 or later.

    Serb statistics and census about the Albanian population in the 90's which I lived
    first hand are purely made up and absolutely fantastical let alone their medieval statistics which are pure works of fiction with absolutely no scientific credibility.

    If you want a more objective figure, your best bet on any serbian source (especially if its coming from an orthodox church registry) is to assume the exact opposite of what
    they claim.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  19. #69
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-02-18
    Location
    Nyírbátor, Szabolcs county
    Posts
    85
    Points
    1,586
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,586, Level: 11
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Many people think, the Vucedol culture (5000-4200 ybp) was the ancestor of the illyrian tribes. This culture was widespread throughout the Carpathian Basin, Eastern-Austria and Moravia, not only Croatia, Bosnia and North Serbia.

    When the Tumulus culture tribes attacked their descendant cultures from northwest (3300-3400 ybp) the majority of the tribes of the Carpathian Basin fled to the south, cross the Sava to the Balkan. Which historical known cultures arrived to the Balkan at this time?

    The thracians originally lived in today's Ukrainian and Romanian Territory, east from the Carpathians.

    So yes, they decided to go south, as later the celts, the goths, the slavic tribes, the onogur-bolgar tribes, or the cumans.

    The question is: when the specific mutation formed and the last common ancestor lived (EV13, Z5017 or Z5018, CTS9320 and all other known subclades) what known cultures existed, and where. We can find our direct paternal ancestor there.

    But this is a mistake to make a political question. We are not the same only with our fathers, but we are the same all of with our ancestors.

    For example, I have been researching and analyzing the descendants of the 10 ancestors of my ancestors so far. And I will try to find as much as possible.

    The results:
    EV13-Y81971: ?
    R1b-U106-S22069: germanic
    R1b-U152-S8172: Hallstatt Celtic
    I2a-L621-A1328: Proto-slavic, rusin
    R1a-M458-YP415: Western slavic, polish
    I2a-L621-Y3118: Proto-slavic, rusin
    R1a-L664-S2866: western germanic
    I1-L22-FGC14412: scandinavian probably varangian/viking
    R1a-Z280-Not completed yet, but surely slavic
    Q1b-L53-Not comleted yet, but maybe hunnic, avaric or sarmatian.

    There is no hungarian among them. So then am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes.

  20. #70
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Yes, as usually you deflect and start to speak about things that you don't know.
    And what are going to discuss here about Chinese or the interesting story told to you by an presumed Albanian friend in Australia about bastarnae?
    Albania-Veneta was only in montenegro and was a term used for military and administrative areas....the Rector stayed in Kotar and the Military General in Perast .............the area was fully Dalmatian in ethnicity with only one Albanian town
    According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810) the population of Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).
    But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[6]

    The Term Montenegro first appeared in 1670 and was a venetian word Monte=mountains Negro=black.
    The inland of montenegro according to Venetian archives had only croats and serbs.

  21. #71
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Many people think, the Vucedol culture (5000-4200 ybp) was the ancestor of the illyrian tribes. This culture was widespread throughout the Carpathian Basin, Eastern-Austria and Moravia, not only Croatia, Bosnia and North Serbia.

    When the Tumulus culture tribes attacked their descendant cultures from northwest (3300-3400 ybp) the majority of the tribes of the Carpathian Basin fled to the south, cross the Sava to the Balkan. Which historical known cultures arrived to the Balkan at this time?

    The thracians originally lived in today's Ukrainian and Romanian Territory, east from the Carpathians.

    So yes, they decided to go south, as later the celts, the goths, the slavic tribes, the onogur-bolgar tribes, or the cumans.

    The question is: when the specific mutation formed and the last common ancestor lived (EV13, Z5017 or Z5018, CTS9320 and all other known subclades) what known cultures existed, and where. We can find our direct paternal ancestor there.

    But this is a mistake to make a political question. We are not the same only with our fathers, but we are the same all of with our ancestors.

    For example, I have been researching and analyzing the descendants of the 10 ancestors of my ancestors so far. And I will try to find as much as possible.

    The results:
    EV13-Y81971: ?
    R1b-U106-S22069: germanic
    R1b-U152-S8172: Hallstatt Celtic
    I2a-L621-A1328: Proto-slavic, rusin
    R1a-M458-YP415: Western slavic, polish
    I2a-L621-Y3118: Proto-slavic, rusin
    R1a-L664-S2866: western germanic
    I1-L22-FGC14412: scandinavian probably varangian/viking
    R1a-Z280-Not completed yet, but surely slavic
    Q1b-L53-Not comleted yet, but maybe hunnic, avaric or sarmatian.

    There is no hungarian among them. So then am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes.
    My best estimate for the origin of E-V13-Y81971 is Northern Romania 770 BC and that it could have moved into the South Western Balkans at any point up to the early first millennium AD.

  22. #72
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-02-18
    Location
    Nyírbátor, Szabolcs county
    Posts
    85
    Points
    1,586
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,586, Level: 11
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    Thank you Pip. But how did you estimate the date of the Y81971 origin? And the place? I think you are right. At this time we know 3 sample which is positive Y81971.

    1.) my own. Küzmös family, last known ancestor born 1735. Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary, greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.
    2.) another Küzmös family member, l.k.a born 1845 Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary (I think he is also a descendant of my ancestor born in 1735, we just could not find birth datas in the birth registers) greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity
    3.) Senetar family from Kentucky. l.k.a born 1870 Ivaskofalva, Bereg county, Hungary (today Ukraina) greek catholic, rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.

    We have no results anywhere else in the world. So northern Romania is very close to us, but we have not connect with the Balkans.

  23. #73
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Albania-Veneta was only in montenegro and was a term used for military and administrative areas....the Rector stayed in Kotar and the Military General in Perast .............the area was fully Dalmatian in ethnicity with only one Albanian town
    According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810) the population of Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).
    But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[6]

    The Term Montenegro first appeared in 1670 and was a venetian word Monte=mountains Negro=black.
    The inland of montenegro according to Venetian archives had only croats and serbs.
    to me ...inland Montenegro with only croats and serbs would mean that Bosnians could be indigenous to the land they currently live in , especially since I have found nothing about their migrational story......croats and serbs did migrate there

  24. #74
    Enfant Terrible Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points
    Wonomyro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-17
    Posts
    462
    Points
    890
    Level
    7
    Points: 890, Level: 7
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 60
    Overall activity: 35.0%


    Country: Croatia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    to me ...inland Montenegro with only croats and serbs would mean that Bosnians could be indigenous to the land they currently live in , especially since I have found nothing about their migrational story......croats and serbs did migrate there
    Some quick clarification might be helpful.

    Present day Bosniak identity is based on Muslim faith. That is what separates them from the others.

    However, the medieval Bosnians were Christians and the group which have been keeping their tradition until present are - Bosnian Croats.

    On the other hand, there are hardly any genetic differences between present day Croats, Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks. The ethnic border between Bosnians and Croats in the past was never clearly identifiable by historians, if ever really existed.

    Bosnian ethnonym was always related to geographical Bosnia while the Croatian name was not limited to Croatia. That is understandable as Croatian ethnonym is not derived from the name of the land.
    Neopisivo

  25. #75
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Thank you Pip. But how did you estimate the date of the Y81971 origin? And the place? I think you are right. At this time we know 3 sample which is positive Y81971.

    1.) my own. Küzmös family, last known ancestor born 1735. Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary, greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.
    2.) another Küzmös family member, l.k.a born 1845 Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary (I think he is also a descendant of my ancestor born in 1735, we just could not find birth datas in the birth registers) greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity
    3.) Senetar family from Kentucky. l.k.a born 1870 Ivaskofalva, Bereg county, Hungary (today Ukraina) greek catholic, rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.

    We have no results anywhere else in the world. So northern Romania is very close to us, but we have not connect with the Balkans.
    To extend my STRs/SNPs algorithm further based on all known data, a West Balkan origin is estimated for Z5017 and Z5016 as a whole, both of which flowered around 2,300 BC. I propose that various E-V13 people moved around within the Balkans and just North of the Balkans for at least the following 1,500 years.
    I will go back further, but the calculations take time.
    It would also be interesting to establish which other haplogroups would have been likely to have had a presence within E-V13 Balkan Bronze Age communities.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •