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Thread: expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

  1. #76
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    For the expansion of E-V13, I would propose the following:
    1. Hundreds of branches of V13 would have existed over a wide geographical area; nearly all would have died out. Only one branch in existence at 3,500 BC still survives today; all sustained expansion came from this branch, which I would propose originated in Eastern Croatia or Central Hungary.
    2. The only significant expansions occurred in two waves - the first North Westwards into Germany at around 2,300 BC; the second Southwards across the Balkans during the second millennium BC.

    With which other surviving haplogroups would such V13 have co-existed (if any)? And which haplogroups would it have encountered during its expansions?

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    My proposal would be that E-V13 was already mixed in with various subclades of G and J2a1 as it arose in Central Europe; and that its expansion followed contact with communities containing principally R1a-M417 and R1b-U152 (Northern), and R1b-Z2106 and R1b-PF7562 (Southern). Any additional or alternative proposals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    My proposal would be that E-V13 was already mixed in with various subclades of G and J2a1 as it arose in Central Europe; and that its expansion followed contact with communities containing principally R1a-M417 and R1b-U152 (Northern), and R1b-Z2106 and R1b-PF7562 (Southern). Any additional or alternative proposals?
    There are other alternatives: paleo-Balkan haplogroup, Ancient Greek haplogroup, etc, but first let's examine your own thought. What makes you think that is the most likely scenario?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    There are other alternatives: paleo-Balkan haplogroup, Ancient Greek haplogroup, etc, but first let's examine your own thought. What makes you think that is the most likely scenario?
    Crunching lots of data. In a nutshell, the upstreams of E-V13, some J2a1 subclades and several G subclades seem to follow similar data patterns, both geographically and chronologically. Most European branches of these groups later appear to have withered, except for those that then (2nd & 3rd millennia BC) follow similar patterns to certain R1a and R1b subclades. Over thousands of years of development, I am sure there would also have been components received from paleo-Balkan and ancient Greek haplogroups, but these look to comprise relatively minor elements of surviving E-V13 populations. Do you think there are any other major influences or likely scenarios?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Crunching lots of data. In a nutshell, the upstreams of E-V13, some J2a1 subclades and several G subclades seem to follow similar data patterns, both geographically and chronologically. Most European branches of these groups later appear to have withered, except for those that then (2nd & 3rd millennia BC) follow similar patterns to certain R1a and R1b subclades. Over thousands of years of development, I am sure there would also have been components received from paleo-Balkan and ancient Greek haplogroups, but these look to comprise relatively minor elements of surviving E-V13 populations. Do you think there are any other major influences or likely scenarios?
    If you throw water in the middle of a crossroad soon its gonna cover all the streets meeting there, as each passing car picks up and moves some drops along its way. So I think its likely that it spread many times over and over, with each passing migration, not necessarily only in the Bronze Age. As for the initial expansion, I'm guessing one of the Central Europe/North Balkans cultures that were later at least partially indo-europeanized might have carried it. Which E-V13 subclades are you associating with those R ones you mentioned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    If you throw water in the middle of a crossroad soon its gonna cover all the streets meeting there, as each passing car picks up and moves some drops along its way. So I think its likely that it spread many times over and over, with each passing migration, not necessarily only in the Bronze Age. As for the initial expansion, I'm guessing one of the Central Europe/North Balkans cultures that were later at least partially indo-europeanized might have carried it. Which E-V13 subclades are you associating with those R ones you mentioned?
    I would say that nearly all E-V13 people would have had significant admixture with R people by the end of the third millennium BC. As is also the case with R, expansion in V13 looks to have been fairly rapid and diverse by this point, making the data difficult to decipher. E-L17 is perhaps one of the clearest subclades, looking like a move of V13 Northwards into Germany, probably along with some predominantly R1b populations.

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    Apparently this sample from Moldova falsely classified as R1b was E-V13:

    scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE XY U5a1a1

    The authors ofthe paper claim the date is unreliable however.

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