expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

[LABERIA]

pardon, where wrong......albania-veneta?


we cannot discuss this issue, because you will deflect it to albanians, ( not again ) when we are talking about dardanians and the E-v13 in that area

Excuse me?

 

[Sile]

Excuse me?

?

there was no montenegro name for the populace..........the original coastal people where under the ZETA and the other montegro part had albanians and serbs ......the inner part of Montenegro ( no coastal access ) was called HUM

Kotor ( or cattaro in bocca , venetian name ) belonged to ZETA

clearly they had to call montenegro at that time Albania-Veneta

~1670 the term Montenegro was used to incorporate ZETA with HUM under the family of: Danilo I Petrović-Njegoš (1697–1735)

officially the term Montenegro was accept by the west in :
The Principality of Montenegro (Serbian: Књажевина Црнa Горa/Knjaževina Crna Gora) that existed from 13 March 1852

but I am deflecting...................the question was about Dardanians and their E-V13

 

[LABERIA]

?

there was no montenegro name for the populace..........the original coastal people where under the ZETA and the other montegro part had albanians and serbs ......the inner part of Montenegro ( no coastal access ) was called HUM

Kotor ( or cattaro in bocca , venetian name ) belonged to ZETA

clearly they had to call montenegro at that time Albania-Veneta

~1670 the term Montenegro was used to incorporate ZETA with HUM under the family of: Danilo I Petrović-Njegoš (1697–1735)

officially the term Montenegro was accept by the west in :
The Principality of Montenegro (Serbian: Књажевина Црнa Горa/Knjaževina Crna Gora) that existed from 13 March 1852

but I am deflecting...................the question was about Dardanians and their E-V13

Yes, as usually you deflect and start to speak about things that you don't know.
And what are going to discuss here about Chinese or the interesting story told to you by an presumed Albanian friend in Australia about bastarnae?

 

[drroots]

From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. .

That map is very misleading due to fast changing demographics in last 1000 years in Balkan.

More specific

Well after Illyrians, there is ~200 years of Bulgarian empire. Local population has moved up north Drin river, becoming nomads back & forth, herding.
After Bulgarians, Serbs over run the entire area all the way down to Greece. In Kosovo they were the absolute majority till 1700 or later. In what's now Albania slavs were a good percentage of population. So, E-V13 couldn't have been big back then, by any means (R1a, Ia2a must have dominated).

Not to mention barbarians like Normans (50-100) years, Visigoths etc....

Then we have Venice, creating Albania Veneta for centuries, while Serbs got the northern part.
Kingdom Of Albania under Naples having middle Albania
Greeks coming and going in south Albania.

High percentage of E-V13 in Kosovo is very very recent event. And by all accounts Montenegro seems to be the spreading center....

Most likely Dardanians may have had E-v13 but so far no evidence of it or what HGs.

 

[Gabriele Pashaj]

Very interesting!

 

[kuzmosi]

And he is right. The EV13 formed 7600 ybp. TMRCA 5000 ybp. We don't know any tribe from this age (Calcholitic) by name. This is the age was before the indo-europeans had arrived. We don't even know where EV13 lived, where they wandered. I think the EV13 home was somewhere in today's Ukraine, Romania or Hungary.

For example the CTS9320 (like drroots or me) is much younger branch. Formed 3700 ybp. TMRCA 3000 ybp. This was the age of the war of Troy. But we don't know yet where was the CTS9320 homeland, and which cultures, tribes beared this mutation. I think this was still Central Europe. (proto-illyrians, thracians, cimmerians? Or Hallstatt celts?)

But that's just guesswork as long as there is not much more Full Genom Sequence results (BigY, WGS or other.)

 

[Gabriele Pashaj]

And he is right. The EV13 formed 7600 ybp. TMRCA 5000 ybp. We don't know any tribe from this age (Calcholitic) by name. This is the age was before the indo-europeans had arrived. We don't even know where EV13 lived, where they wandered. I think the EV13 home was somewhere in today's Ukraine, Romania or Hungary.

For example the CTS9320 (like drroots or me) is much younger branch. Formed 3700 ybp. TMRCA 3000 ybp. This was the age of the war of Troy. But we don't know yet where was the CTS9320 homeland, and which cultures, tribes beared this mutation. I think this was still Central Europe. (proto-illyrians, thracians, cimmerians? Or Hallstatt celts?)

But that's just guesswork as long as there is not much more Full Genom Sequence results (BigY, WGS or other.)

So ... the people that had the ydna Ev-13 inhabited the central part of Europe and then decided to go south .... very intriguing

 

[Johane Derite]

That map is very misleading due to fast changing demographics in last 1000 years in Balkan.

More specific

In Kosovo they were the absolute majority till 1700 or later.

100% fabrication. Serbs were not an absolute majority until 1700 or later.

Serb statistics and census about the Albanian population in the 90's which I lived
first hand are purely made up and absolutely fantastical let alone their medieval statistics which are pure works of fiction with absolutely no scientific credibility.

If you want a more objective figure, your best bet on any serbian source (especially if its coming from an orthodox church registry) is to assume the exact opposite of what
they claim.

 

[kuzmosi]

Many people think, the Vucedol culture (5000-4200 ybp) was the ancestor of the illyrian tribes. This culture was widespread throughout the Carpathian Basin, Eastern-Austria and Moravia, not only Croatia, Bosnia and North Serbia.

When the Tumulus culture tribes attacked their descendant cultures from northwest (3300-3400 ybp) the majority of the tribes of the Carpathian Basin fled to the south, cross the Sava to the Balkan. Which historical known cultures arrived to the Balkan at this time?

The thracians originally lived in today's Ukrainian and Romanian Territory, east from the Carpathians.

So yes, they decided to go south, as later the celts, the goths, the slavic tribes, the onogur-bolgar tribes, or the cumans.

The question is: when the specific mutation formed and the last common ancestor lived (EV13, Z5017 or Z5018, CTS9320 and all other known subclades) what known cultures existed, and where. We can find our direct paternal ancestor there.

But this is a mistake to make a political question. We are not the same only with our fathers, but we are the same all of with our ancestors.

For example, I have been researching and analyzing the descendants of the 10 ancestors of my ancestors so far. And I will try to find as much as possible.

The results:
EV13-Y81971: ?
R1b-U106-S22069: germanic
R1b-U152-S8172: Hallstatt Celtic
I2a-L621-A1328: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-M458-YP415: Western slavic, polish
I2a-L621-Y3118: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-L664-S2866: western germanic
I1-L22-FGC14412: scandinavian probably varangian/viking
R1a-Z280-Not completed yet, but surely slavic
Q1b-L53-Not comleted yet, but maybe hunnic, avaric or sarmatian.

There is no hungarian among them. So then am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes.

 

[Sile]

Yes, as usually you deflect and start to speak about things that you don't know.
And what are going to discuss here about Chinese or the interesting story told to you by an presumed Albanian friend in Australia about bastarnae?

Albania-Veneta was only in montenegro and was a term used for military and administrative areas....the Rector stayed in Kotar and the Military General in Perast .............the area was fully Dalmatian in ethnicity with only one Albanian town
According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810) the population of Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).
But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[6]
The Term Montenegro first appeared in 1670 and was a venetian word Monte=mountains Negro=black.
The inland of montenegro according to Venetian archives had only croats and serbs.

 

[Pip]

Many people think, the Vucedol culture (5000-4200 ybp) was the ancestor of the illyrian tribes. This culture was widespread throughout the Carpathian Basin, Eastern-Austria and Moravia, not only Croatia, Bosnia and North Serbia.

When the Tumulus culture tribes attacked their descendant cultures from northwest (3300-3400 ybp) the majority of the tribes of the Carpathian Basin fled to the south, cross the Sava to the Balkan. Which historical known cultures arrived to the Balkan at this time?

The thracians originally lived in today's Ukrainian and Romanian Territory, east from the Carpathians.

So yes, they decided to go south, as later the celts, the goths, the slavic tribes, the onogur-bolgar tribes, or the cumans.

The question is: when the specific mutation formed and the last common ancestor lived (EV13, Z5017 or Z5018, CTS9320 and all other known subclades) what known cultures existed, and where. We can find our direct paternal ancestor there.

But this is a mistake to make a political question. We are not the same only with our fathers, but we are the same all of with our ancestors.

For example, I have been researching and analyzing the descendants of the 10 ancestors of my ancestors so far. And I will try to find as much as possible.

The results:
EV13-Y81971: ?
R1b-U106-S22069: germanic
R1b-U152-S8172: Hallstatt Celtic
I2a-L621-A1328: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-M458-YP415: Western slavic, polish
I2a-L621-Y3118: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-L664-S2866: western germanic
I1-L22-FGC14412: scandinavian probably varangian/viking
R1a-Z280-Not completed yet, but surely slavic
Q1b-L53-Not comleted yet, but maybe hunnic, avaric or sarmatian.

There is no hungarian among them. So then am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes.

My best estimate for the origin of E-V13-Y81971 is Northern Romania 770 BC and that it could have moved into the South Western Balkans at any point up to the early first millennium AD.

 

[kuzmosi]

Thank you Pip. But how did you estimate the date of the Y81971 origin? And the place? I think you are right. At this time we know 3 sample which is positive Y81971.

1.) my own. Küzmös family, last known ancestor born 1735. Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary, greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.
2.) another Küzmös family member, l.k.a born 1845 Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary (I think he is also a descendant of my ancestor born in 1735, we just could not find birth datas in the birth registers) greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity
3.) Senetar family from Kentucky. l.k.a born 1870 Ivaskofalva, Bereg county, Hungary (today Ukraina) greek catholic, rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.

We have no results anywhere else in the world. So northern Romania is very close to us, but we have not connect with the Balkans.

 

[Sile]

Albania-Veneta was only in montenegro and was a term used for military and administrative areas....the Rector stayed in Kotar and the Military General in Perast .............the area was fully Dalmatian in ethnicity with only one Albanian town
According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810) the population of Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).
But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[6]
The Term Montenegro first appeared in 1670 and was a venetian word Monte=mountains Negro=black.
The inland of montenegro according to Venetian archives had only croats and serbs.

to me ...inland Montenegro with only croats and serbs would mean that Bosnians could be indigenous to the land they currently live in , especially since I have found nothing about their migrational story......croats and serbs did migrate there

 

[Wonomyro]

to me ...inland Montenegro with only croats and serbs would mean that Bosnians could be indigenous to the land they currently live in , especially since I have found nothing about their migrational story......croats and serbs did migrate there

Some quick clarification might be helpful.

Present day Bosniak identity is based on Muslim faith. That is what separates them from the others.

However, the medieval Bosnians were Christians and the group which have been keeping their tradition until present are - Bosnian Croats.

On the other hand, there are hardly any genetic differences between present day Croats, Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks. The ethnic border between Bosnians and Croats in the past was never clearly identifiable by historians, if ever really existed.

Bosnian ethnonym was always related to geographical Bosnia while the Croatian name was not limited to Croatia. That is understandable as Croatian ethnonym is not derived from the name of the land.

 

[Pip]

Thank you Pip. But how did you estimate the date of the Y81971 origin? And the place? I think you are right. At this time we know 3 sample which is positive Y81971.

1.) my own. Küzmös family, last known ancestor born 1735. Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary, greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.
2.) another Küzmös family member, l.k.a born 1845 Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary (I think he is also a descendant of my ancestor born in 1735, we just could not find birth datas in the birth registers) greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity
3.) Senetar family from Kentucky. l.k.a born 1870 Ivaskofalva, Bereg county, Hungary (today Ukraina) greek catholic, rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.

We have no results anywhere else in the world. So northern Romania is very close to us, but we have not connect with the Balkans.

To extend my STRs/SNPs algorithm further based on all known data, a West Balkan origin is estimated for Z5017 and Z5016 as a whole, both of which flowered around 2,300 BC. I propose that various E-V13 people moved around within the Balkans and just North of the Balkans for at least the following 1,500 years.
I will go back further, but the calculations take time.
It would also be interesting to establish which other haplogroups would have been likely to have had a presence within E-V13 Balkan Bronze Age communities.

 

[Pip]

For the expansion of E-V13, I would propose the following:
1. Hundreds of branches of V13 would have existed over a wide geographical area; nearly all would have died out. Only one branch in existence at 3,500 BC still survives today; all sustained expansion came from this branch, which I would propose originated in Eastern Croatia or Central Hungary.
2. The only significant expansions occurred in two waves - the first North Westwards into Germany at around 2,300 BC; the second Southwards across the Balkans during the second millennium BC.

With which other surviving haplogroups would such V13 have co-existed (if any)? And which haplogroups would it have encountered during its expansions?

 

[Pip]

My proposal would be that E-V13 was already mixed in with various subclades of G and J2a1 as it arose in Central Europe; and that its expansion followed contact with communities containing principally R1a-M417 and R1b-U152 (Northern), and R1b-Z2106 and R1b-PF7562 (Southern). Any additional or alternative proposals?

 

[Ownstyler]

My proposal would be that E-V13 was already mixed in with various subclades of G and J2a1 as it arose in Central Europe; and that its expansion followed contact with communities containing principally R1a-M417 and R1b-U152 (Northern), and R1b-Z2106 and R1b-PF7562 (Southern). Any additional or alternative proposals?

There are other alternatives: paleo-Balkan haplogroup, Ancient Greek haplogroup, etc, but first let's examine your own thought. What makes you think that is the most likely scenario?

 

[Pip]

There are other alternatives: paleo-Balkan haplogroup, Ancient Greek haplogroup, etc, but first let's examine your own thought. What makes you think that is the most likely scenario?

Crunching lots of data. In a nutshell, the upstreams of E-V13, some J2a1 subclades and several G subclades seem to follow similar data patterns, both geographically and chronologically. Most European branches of these groups later appear to have withered, except for those that then (2nd & 3rd millennia BC) follow similar patterns to certain R1a and R1b subclades. Over thousands of years of development, I am sure there would also have been components received from paleo-Balkan and ancient Greek haplogroups, but these look to comprise relatively minor elements of surviving E-V13 populations. Do you think there are any other major influences or likely scenarios?

 

[Ownstyler]

Crunching lots of data. In a nutshell, the upstreams of E-V13, some J2a1 subclades and several G subclades seem to follow similar data patterns, both geographically and chronologically. Most European branches of these groups later appear to have withered, except for those that then (2nd & 3rd millennia BC) follow similar patterns to certain R1a and R1b subclades. Over thousands of years of development, I am sure there would also have been components received from paleo-Balkan and ancient Greek haplogroups, but these look to comprise relatively minor elements of surviving E-V13 populations. Do you think there are any other major influences or likely scenarios?

If you throw water in the middle of a crossroad soon its gonna cover all the streets meeting there, as each passing car picks up and moves some drops along its way. So I think its likely that it spread many times over and over, with each passing migration, not necessarily only in the Bronze Age. As for the initial expansion, I'm guessing one of the Central Europe/North Balkans cultures that were later at least partially indo-europeanized might have carried it. Which E-V13 subclades are you associating with those R ones you mentioned?