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Thread: expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

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    expansion of E-V13 : a mystery



    E-V13 is spread all over Europe
    little is known how and when this happened
    there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
    the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
    3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
    because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago, which seems to be in contradiction of the 7000 years old cardial ware E-V13 DNA found in Catalunia : http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract
    Ray Banks found a lot of new subclades of E-V13 : https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1 look under E1b1b1a1b1a1 PF2211/V13 (6842263 G->A)
    It seems like a lot of different expansions happened in different places and at different times.
    I also found some distribution maps here : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/results and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    But these gave me little insight in the expansion of E-V13 or their subclades.
    Any clues?

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    Hm. Well...not sure how to answer this one. But I would assume various Indo-European tribes picked up and assimilated Neolithic E-V13 men. Most likely pre-Greeks, pre-Germans, possibly pre-Italo-Celts in the early Bronze Age....plus the addition of Balkanic soldiers in the Roman Army later in the Roman Empire.....who became Romanized colonists; and may have spread it around Europe at an even higher frequency.

    The E-V13 men most likely arrived from Anatolia or somewhere similar. I am guessing the E-V13 found in Mesolithic Catalonia is probably a coincidence....seems like it is not very abundant in the Iberian peninsula as it is in the East, given this map.


    Also, this is a subclade of E1b1b...meaning it is a singular mutation of sorts...


    Maybe whatever brought E-V13 across Europe, would be the same explanation for why the DF27 subclade of R1b, native to Iberian peninsula; is found as far as Sweden and Slovenia:

    Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.jpg


    Disclaimer: this hypothesis is very amateur; so I'm sorry if it isn't satisfactory enough.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post


    E-V13 is spread all over Europe
    little is known how and when this happened
    there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
    the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
    3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
    because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago, which seems to be in contradiction of the 7000 years old cardial ware E-V13 DNA found in Catalunia : http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract
    Ray Banks found a lot of new subclades of E-V13 : https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1 look under E1b1b1a1b1a1 PF2211/V13 (6842263 G->A)
    It seems like a lot of different expansions happened in different places and at different times.
    I also found some distribution maps here : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/results and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    But these gave me little insight in the expansion of E-V13 or their subclades.
    Any clues?
    IMO, ......E-V13 is a Bulgarian marker ( first mutation in Bulgaria ) , ...its "parent" originally coming from the Levant.
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    we haven't found any E-V13 older than Bronze age in Balkans, minor Asia, or Italy,

    the oldest is in Iberia,
    but East of Alps the oldest is found at Konya, modern Turkey 2000 BC 4 ky from now,

    besides the almost none % among Gascons could also mean something,
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779
    Thanks

    The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com

    its formation is 12500ybp


    How important is TMRCA in regards to E-V13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Thanks

    The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com

    its formation is 12500ybp
    I would not like to open a new thread but maybe its appropriate to mention it here. If the Black Sea deluge really happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_S...uge_hypothesis could it have some effect on the populations that were living around the then massive fresh water lake? The lake turning into salty water and growing fast should have left a considerable impact on those populations and also forced them to settle inland and closer to rivers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I would not like to open a new thread but maybe its appropriate to mention it here. If the Black Sea deluge really happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_S...uge_hypothesis could it have some effect on the populations that were living around the then massive fresh water lake? The lake turning into salty water and growing fast should have left a considerable impact on those populations and also forced them to settle inland and closer to rivers.
    was it salty with this change?

    when the ice melted , it went in Aral sea and Caspian sea and this flowed to the black sea...............IIRC , Mr. Ballard who finds wrecks in the seas noted that the black sea provides good ancient samples because it has very little oxygen (similar to fresh water)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    was it salty with this change?

    when the ice melted , it went in Aral sea and Caspian sea and this flowed to the black sea...............IIRC , Mr. Ballard who finds wrecks in the seas noted that the black sea provides good ancient samples because it has very little oxygen (similar to fresh water)
    I presume it was fresh water prior to the Mediterranean over flowing through the Bosphorus straights for a similar reason you stated with the discovery of ancient fresh water mollusks. I wonder what kind of impact this had on the existing populations which must have been abondant because of the Fresh water 7600 BP

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    maybe its not as dramatic as the documentary shows, but there is an agreement it did happen

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    Title of this film is misleading and lying!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Title of this film is misleading and lying!
    what about the content?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, we have a marker of sorts for E-V13 in Europe.

    Marie Lacan et al: Ancient Dna suggests the leading role played by men during the Neolithic dissemination.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

    "Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.(It was E-V13.)"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, we have a marker of sorts for E-V13 in Europe.

    Marie Lacan et al: Ancient Dna suggests the leading role played by men during the Neolithic dissemination.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

    "Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.(It was E-V13.)"
    I'm starting to wonder : was this individual realy E-V13 or was he just ancestral to E-V13 (maybe E-L618 or even Z1919)? I don't find the details in the paper. Which SNP's were confirmed?
    Also : has this branch died out or is there still offspring of this individual?


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I'm starting to wonder : was this individual realy E-V13 or was he just ancestral to E-V13 (maybe E-L618 or even Z1919)? I don't find the details in the paper.
    Also : has this branch died out or is there still offspring of this individual?
    Apparently it is very closely related to the types found in the Balkans ;)

    It was found in Avellaner cave in North Eastern Spain very close to the French border (Pyrenees)

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    In any case; the finding of E-V13 in Catalonia could be an erroneous report ... or it could possibly be ... that a small group of E-V13 men trekked all the way West in the late Mesolithic.


    But, why would there be only a singular migration of E-V13 to the Iberian peninsula?

    7,000 years ago would be the Mesolithic, right? So is this a founder? If so, why is this subclade more abundant in the East of Europe rather than Iberia? A migration Eastward?

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    In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
    invaded by illyrians or by the 14 tribes of Epirotes under Pyhrrus and his elephants!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

    I doubt it was the Illyrians, they did not arrive that far south in the balkans until 400BC

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    ^Well it's a possibility, I thought of the Messapii who lived in Apulia and belonged to an illyrian branch, if I remember well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    ^Well it's a possibility, I thought of the Messapii who lived in Apulia and belonged to an illyrian branch, if I remember well.
    yes, me too, but it seems also the messapii language matched the Illiyrian japodes tribe in modern inland Croatia and also their migration path to apulia....................but I am unsure of this studies correctness

    The Messapians or Messapii were an Indo-European people that inhabited, in historical times, the south-eastern peninsula or "heel" of Italy (Salento, modern Apulia), known variously in ancient times as Calabria, Messapia and Iapygia. Their chief towns were Uzentum (modern Ugento), Rudiae (modern Lecce), Brundisium (modern Brindisi) and Hyria. They spoke the Messapian language. They are often referred to as "the most southerly of the Iapygian tribes".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

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    The designation of the find as "E1b1b1a1b" is a direct quote from the paper.

    Going by this chart in Wiki, E1b1b1a1b* is E-V13. Does that clarify matters? It would definitely be good if they could reanalyze the sample and give a snp designation so we know the specific subclade, but unless this chart is wrong, isn't it definitely E-V13? Does anyone know if Ray Banks has a chart like this and if it differs?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

    This might still be a sub-clade of E-V13 that went extinct, of course, but we have so few ancient Neolithic samples, when you think of it, that there's no way of knowing yet, and certainly not if we don't get very refined subclade identification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
    There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested.

    I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated.

    This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:


    That doesn't look like it tracks the mountains particularly. There's no particularly high presence down the stretch of the Apennines, for example, as there is for some G2a.

    Here's the Wiki map of E-V68 the parent, for what it's worth:


    It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north:

    Particularly on the Wiki map of E-V68 it just looks like it hopped across the Adriatic.

    Edit to add Cavalli Sforza autsomal map 4:
    Last edited by Angela; 01-04-15 at 20:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The designation of the find as "E1b1b1a1b" is a direct quote from the paper.

    Going by this chart in Wiki, E1b1b1a1b* is E-V13. Does that clarify matters? It would definitely be good if they could reanalyze the sample and give a snp designation so we know the specific subclade, but unless this chart is wrong, isn't it definitely E-V13? Does anyone know if Ray Banks has a chart like this and if it differs?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

    This might still be a sub-clade of E-V13 that went extinct, of course, but we have so few ancient Neolithic samples, when you think of it, that there's no way of knowing yet, and certainly not if we don't get very refined subclade identification.
    the paper is dated 2011
    checking isogg 2011 http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE11.html it appears E-V13 was E1b1b1a1b, but E-V13 was derived directly from E-M78 then as Z1919 and L618 were not known yet
    I wonder if the individual couldn't have been Z1919 or L618 instead
    we really should know which SNPs were confirmed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
    you mean the Messapians?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north.
    That is what it looks like to me too, especially as the estimated TMRCA is only some 4000 years.
    It definately seems to have been part of the Greek colonization east, west, and north. But that does not explain the whole wide distribution across Europe like it is know.
    It seems E-V13 participated in multiple expansions, but on the other hand, how many times can one get lucky? Unless you have some very good carts?

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