Could Haplogroup Q in Europe be actually of Indo-European origin?

**Alan** · 04-04-15, 13:20

Originally Posted by Sile

The Q in Spain, Iceland and Britain looks entirely Norse .............

Isn't Q in Scandinavia Q1a? If Q1b is also found in Central Europe. Than an Alanic origin makes even more sense.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Alani_map.jpg

**Melancon** · 04-04-15, 13:23

Originally Posted by Alan

Isn't Q in Scandinavia Q1a? If Q1b is also found in Central Europe. Than an Alanic origin makes even more sense.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Alani_map.jpg

I think Sile here may have been being sarcastic possibly.

**giuseppe rossi** · 04-04-15, 14:07

Q1b in Italy came with Vandals and Alans. Phoenicians settled in NW Sicily only.

**Hauteville** · 04-04-15, 14:12

And Sardinia also.

**Melancon** · 04-04-15, 14:15

Now I see. Yes, I would agree that an Alanian contribution of Q1b might be the source. Not Phoenician as Maciamo may have suggested...Maybe the Spanish and Italians do not have much Levantine admixture after all.

This is the one thing that I seemed to have overlooked; was that I knew that the Alans had conquered Iberian peninsula but did not know if they could have had many descendants.

I noticed Caucasians have a high abundance of black hair (also Southern Spain) and even Y-DNA G2a. (also seen at high frequencies in Italy) which is probably where the dark straight hair genetically originates from, in high frequency.

**Melancon** · 04-04-15, 16:56

I often wonder if the Q1a in Europe might be of a Scythian origin.

**Hauteville** · 04-04-15, 18:40

If Q was entire Punic it should be founded also in North Africa but in the map of Eupedia there isn't Q there. Maybe Vandals and Alans?but some of them settled in North African as well. Here the migration of Alans in the middle ages.

**giuseppe rossi** · 04-04-15, 18:53

Alans and Vandals in North Africa were exterminated by Byzantines.

**Alan** · 04-04-15, 23:03

Originally Posted by Melancon

Now I see. Yes, I would agree that an Alanian contribution of Q1b might be the source. Not Phoenician as Maciamo may have suggested...Maybe the Spanish and Italians do not have much Levantine admixture after all.

This is the one thing that I seemed to have overlooked; was that I knew that the Alans had conquered Iberian peninsula but did not know if they could have had many descendants.

I noticed Caucasians have a high abundance of black hair (also Southern Spain) and even Y-DNA G2a. (also seen at high frequencies in Italy) which is probably where the dark straight hair genetically originates from, in high frequency.

Easy, Alans are described as being pred. light haired/eyed people. It's not like Black hair is an abnormally to Iberia, if theearly H&G were already dark haired.

North Caucasians/Georgians have on average higher frequency of light hair/eyes than South Spain. So your conclusion is kinda misleading.

The possibility of an Alanic origin of Q1b does not exlude the chance of Levantine admixture in Iberia and Italy. I think there is absolutely no doubt that there is Phoenician admixture in those two regions.

**Sile** · 04-04-15, 23:07

Originally Posted by Melancon

I think Sile here may have been being sarcastic possibly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_..._Expansion.svg

**Drac II** · 05-04-15, 09:16

Originally Posted by Alan

North Caucasians/Georgians have on average higher frequency of light hair/eyes than South Spain. So your conclusion is kinda misleading.

That would be the case only when comparing the lightest eyed and haired Caucasians (Ossetes) against the darkest eyed and haired southern Spaniards (Andalusians), and even then it is a very close one:

Ossetes:

Over 50% black or dark brown hair, the rest have brown, light brown or "light" hair, and about 10% are blond

54% have brown eyes, the rest mixed and light.

Andalusians:

60% dark brown hair, 30% black hair, 10% blondish hair

60% brown eyes, 30% mixed-light eyes (predominantly greenish-brown), 10% blue-gray eyes

*Above data gathered by Carleton Coon from several anthropological studies of the mentioned populations.

**Alan** · 05-04-15, 14:51

Originally Posted by Drac II

That would be the case only when comparing the lightest eyed and haired Caucasians (Ossetes) against the darkest eyed and haired southern Spaniards (Andalusians), and even then it is a very close one:

Ossetes:

Over 50% black or dark brown hair, the rest have brown, light brown or "light" hair, and about 10% are blond

54% have brown eyes, the rest mixed and light.

Andalusians:

60% dark brown hair, 30% black hair, 10% blondish hair

60% brown eyes, 30% mixed-light eyes (predominantly greenish-brown), 10% blue-gray eyes

*Above data gathered by Carleton Coon from several anthropological studies of the mentioned populations.

And that is why Caucasian admixture wouldn't make South Spaniards black haired, when Alans were described as pred. light haired/eyed.

Take in mind Alans populated a vast bigger territory than Ossetians. Ossetians are the most Southern portion of the ancient Alans. It is not even clear if Ossetians are descend of the Alans or the Siraces, an other Sarmatian tribe.

Interesting data, could I have a link to the actual source would be nice to read more about it. But take in mind Carleton Coon never visited those areas or has seen most of these people.

It's not like the difference between North Spaniards and South Spaniards is so significant either.The least "pigmented" parts of the Northern Caucasus are on similar level with the least pigmented parts of Iberia and Italy.

Whichever source or map I look at, all show North Caucasians/Georgians having more occurance of light hair/eyes and being on level with overall Iberians and Italians.

People who are from Germany and have seen the German team play vs Georgia in the European Cup qualifiers can confirm that. From the 13 players, 4 were in Central-North European/Balkanian standards (they didn't even look East but Central-North and Northwest European), while 6 other typically Balkanian/Greek and 3 more on the Greek/ northern West Asian range.

Most interesting part on the Georgians was that many had high Nose Bridge, typically how you saw it in ancient people, Yamna, Greeks, Macedonians, Anatolians, Thracians, Iranics and some Romans.
http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images...g?v=1407099768

**Alan** · 05-04-15, 16:52

**giuseppe rossi** · 05-04-15, 18:45

I dunno brotha, but that team is hardly light. None of them has light eyes to begin with, and there are many who look Turkish or Kurdish.

I could post whole sports teams from Southern Italy and Sicily who look much lighter than them.

**Alan** · 05-04-15, 23:59

**giuseppe rossi** · 06-04-15, 00:08

Ok but Darmian is half Armenian half Italian AFAIK.

**Hauteville** · 09-04-15, 12:27

Originally Posted by Sile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_..._Expansion.svg

Do you think that the Q founded in some Italians is due to Viking/Norman expansion?
In the Green areas of this link they didn't settled though.

**Hauteville** · 09-04-15, 12:43

Well Sile could be a good option that. In the Eupedia brief of Genetics of Italy we have Q in Sicily, Calabria (both subject of Norman dominion), Latium (many Normans settled there as well) and Sardinia.
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ital...html#frequency

**Hauteville** · 10-04-15, 19:50

Curious that almost all the Q (7 cases overal) came from Mazara del Vallo which was the most important strategic point of Vandals and Alans but some Normans settled there for sure, the rest are one from Sciacca and one from Ragusa. Other studies didn't found other Q here though and they have studied Ragusa other two times.

**Kardu** · 10-04-15, 22:18

Interestingly Georgian royal dinasty belongs to a rare cluster of Q1a3*.
They descend from Ossetian prince David Soslan (12th century AD) who married a Georgian queen of Bagrationi royal house.
The point is there is no single Q1a3* among modern Ossetians... So prince David Soslan might have been of Hun, Khazar or Scythian ancestry himself,

**Alan** · 10-04-15, 22:33

Originally Posted by Kardu

Interestingly Georgian royal dinasty belongs to a rare cluster of Q1a3*.
They descend from Ossetian prince David Soslan (12th century AD) who married a Georgian queen of Bagrationi royal house.
The point is there is no single Q1a3* among modern Ossetians... So prince David Soslan might have been of Hun, Khazar or Scythian ancestry himself,

Scythian unlikely because they would have been rather Q1b. Hun maybe, becaue Huns were mixed Scythians, Massagaeta and Mongols. Khazar likely because they were Turkic, although with strong Iranic element like all Turkic groups.

**Salmon** · 27-04-15, 01:29

Isn't Q common in pre-colonial America?

Q is descendent of P which branched into Q and R.

**Pax Augusta** · 27-04-15, 02:57

Originally Posted by Salmon

Q is descendent of P which branched into Q and R.

Long time ago.

**Salmon** · 27-04-15, 20:36

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

Long time ago.

The Ps made it all over the world. Qs were in MesoAmerica and Rs are in Western Europe.

They both show up around the same time wolves are allegedly domesticated. MesoAmerican Qs had dogs. Western Europeans Rs had dogs.

They might have gotten there on dog sleds... just saying. The Qs probably come from the same place Rs come from... a place with lots of wolves.

CorbinDark · 09-06-15, 17:14

Originally Posted by Salmon

The Ps made it all over the world. Qs were in MesoAmerica and Rs are in Western Europe.

They both show up around the same time wolves are allegedly domesticated. MesoAmerican Qs had dogs. Western Europeans Rs had dogs.

They might have gotten there on dog sleds... just saying. The Qs probably come from the same place Rs come from... a place with lots of wolves.

What I wanted to know basically was that is it possible that the Haplogroup Q in Europe was of a Caucasoid origin (European) or a Mongoloid origin. (Asian)

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