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Thread: Could Haplogroup Q in Europe be actually of Indo-European origin?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Q in Spain, Iceland and Britain looks entirely Norse .............
    Isn't Q in Scandinavia Q1a? If Q1b is also found in Central Europe. Than an Alanic origin makes even more sense.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Alani_map.jpg

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Isn't Q in Scandinavia Q1a? If Q1b is also found in Central Europe. Than an Alanic origin makes even more sense.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Alani_map.jpg
    I think Sile here may have been being sarcastic possibly.

  3. #28
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    Q1b in Italy came with Vandals and Alans. Phoenicians settled in NW Sicily only.

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    And Sardinia also.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Now I see. Yes, I would agree that an Alanian contribution of Q1b might be the source. Not Phoenician as Maciamo may have suggested...Maybe the Spanish and Italians do not have much Levantine admixture after all.

    This is the one thing that I seemed to have overlooked; was that I knew that the Alans had conquered Iberian peninsula but did not know if they could have had many descendants.


    I noticed Caucasians have a high abundance of black hair (also Southern Spain) and even Y-DNA G2a. (also seen at high frequencies in Italy) which is probably where the dark straight hair genetically originates from, in high frequency.
    Last edited by Melancon; 04-04-15 at 16:59.

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    I often wonder if the Q1a in Europe might be of a Scythian origin.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If Q was entire Punic it should be founded also in North Africa but in the map of Eupedia there isn't Q there. Maybe Vandals and Alans?but some of them settled in North African as well. Here the migration of Alans in the middle ages.


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    Banned giuseppe rossi's Avatar
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    Alans and Vandals in North Africa were exterminated by Byzantines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Now I see. Yes, I would agree that an Alanian contribution of Q1b might be the source. Not Phoenician as Maciamo may have suggested...Maybe the Spanish and Italians do not have much Levantine admixture after all.

    This is the one thing that I seemed to have overlooked; was that I knew that the Alans had conquered Iberian peninsula but did not know if they could have had many descendants.


    I noticed Caucasians have a high abundance of black hair (also Southern Spain) and even Y-DNA G2a. (also seen at high frequencies in Italy) which is probably where the dark straight hair genetically originates from, in high frequency.
    Easy, Alans are described as being pred. light haired/eyed people. It's not like Black hair is an abnormally to Iberia, if theearly H&G were already dark haired.

    North Caucasians/Georgians have on average higher frequency of light hair/eyes than South Spain. So your conclusion is kinda misleading.

    The possibility of an Alanic origin of Q1b does not exlude the chance of Levantine admixture in Iberia and Italy. I think there is absolutely no doubt that there is Phoenician admixture in those two regions.
    Last edited by Alan; 05-04-15 at 15:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I think Sile here may have been being sarcastic possibly.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_..._Expansion.svg
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    North Caucasians/Georgians have on average higher frequency of light hair/eyes than South Spain. So your conclusion is kinda misleading.
    That would be the case only when comparing the lightest eyed and haired Caucasians (Ossetes) against the darkest eyed and haired southern Spaniards (Andalusians), and even then it is a very close one:

    Ossetes:


    Over 50% black or dark brown hair, the rest have brown, light brown or "light" hair, and about 10% are blond


    54% have brown eyes, the rest mixed and light.


    Andalusians:


    60% dark brown hair, 30% black hair, 10% blondish hair


    60% brown eyes, 30% mixed-light eyes (predominantly greenish-brown), 10% blue-gray eyes




    *Above data gathered by Carleton Coon from several anthropological studies of the mentioned populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    That would be the case only when comparing the lightest eyed and haired Caucasians (Ossetes) against the darkest eyed and haired southern Spaniards (Andalusians), and even then it is a very close one:

    Ossetes:


    Over 50% black or dark brown hair, the rest have brown, light brown or "light" hair, and about 10% are blond


    54% have brown eyes, the rest mixed and light.


    Andalusians:


    60% dark brown hair, 30% black hair, 10% blondish hair


    60% brown eyes, 30% mixed-light eyes (predominantly greenish-brown), 10% blue-gray eyes




    *Above data gathered by Carleton Coon from several anthropological studies of the mentioned populations.
    And that is why Caucasian admixture wouldn't make South Spaniards black haired, when Alans were described as pred. light haired/eyed.

    Take in mind Alans populated a vast bigger territory than Ossetians. Ossetians are the most Southern portion of the ancient Alans. It is not even clear if Ossetians are descend of the Alans or the Siraces, an other Sarmatian tribe.

    Interesting data, could I have a link to the actual source would be nice to read more about it. But take in mind Carleton Coon never visited those areas or has seen most of these people.

    It's not like the difference between North Spaniards and South Spaniards is so significant either.The least "pigmented" parts of the Northern Caucasus are on similar level with the least pigmented parts of Iberia and Italy.


    Whichever source or map I look at, all show North Caucasians/Georgians having more occurance of light hair/eyes and being on level with overall Iberians and Italians.

    People who are from Germany and have seen the German team play vs Georgia in the European Cup qualifiers can confirm that. From the 13 players, 4 were in Central-North European/Balkanian standards (they didn't even look East but Central-North and Northwest European), while 6 other typically Balkanian/Greek and 3 more on the Greek/ northern West Asian range.

    Most interesting part on the Georgians was that many had high Nose Bridge, typically how you saw it in ancient people, Yamna, Greeks, Macedonians, Anatolians, Thracians, Iranics and some Romans.
    http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images...g?v=1407099768
    Last edited by Alan; 11-04-15 at 15:14.

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  14. #39
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    I dunno brotha, but that team is hardly light. None of them has light eyes to begin with, and there are many who look Turkish or Kurdish.

    I could post whole sports teams from Southern Italy and Sicily who look much lighter than them.

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    giuseppe you are Italian so logically you know your people better. I can't verify/disqualify this because I don't know that much about them. My sugestive knowledge is based on my personal experience and what most maps show.


    But the whole subject was that "Caucasians" couldn't have brought black hair to Iberia. Nothing more.

    to complete the set.
    Here is the Spanish squad which played the last qualifier match against Ukraine.

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250013892.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/34694.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/93148.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250002704.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/58031.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250024456.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...24/1909917.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/93649.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/69172.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250000036.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250024454.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/72644.jpg



    Italian squad that played the last qualifier match against Bulgaria.

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...324/106737.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/59142.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...324/103275.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250026962.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250020649.jpg

    http://www.romaforever.it/squadra/ph...tolacci-91.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250017925.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/74055.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250006200.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250005254.jpg

    http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/467...5ZFzoqDw%3d%3d

    http://goaldentimes.org/wp-content/u...Pk9pIsdvnl.jpg

    http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/L...7EwjX9z_Hl.jpg


    Portuguese squad that played the last qualifier match against Serbia.

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/70098.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/63706.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/61148.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/70099.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/52694.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/58953.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...324/101788.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/93443.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...324/107951.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/31429.jpg


    Greek squad that played the qualifier match against Hungary.

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...24/1907791.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...324/108848.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/73874.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250017753.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250013061.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/39217.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/63005.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250013063.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250012954.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...24/1901610.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/73877.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/97664.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players.../250014583.jpg

    http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players...x324/72623.jpg




    They appear like how I know them and how South Europeans should look like. Mediterranean people.

    My source

    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=...=66/index.html
    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=...122/index.html
    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/qualifi...110/index.html
    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2016/teams/team=57157/index.html
    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2016/teams/team=49/
    Last edited by Alan; 06-04-15 at 19:03.

  16. #41
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok but Darmian is half Armenian half Italian AFAIK.

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    Do you think that the Q founded in some Italians is due to Viking/Norman expansion?
    In the Green areas of this link they didn't settled though.

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    Well Sile could be a good option that. In the Eupedia brief of Genetics of Italy we have Q in Sicily, Calabria (both subject of Norman dominion), Latium (many Normans settled there as well) and Sardinia.
    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ital...html#frequency

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    Curious that almost all the Q (7 cases overal) came from Mazara del Vallo which was the most important strategic point of Vandals and Alans but some Normans settled there for sure, the rest are one from Sciacca and one from Ragusa. Other studies didn't found other Q here though and they have studied Ragusa other two times.

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    Interestingly Georgian royal dinasty belongs to a rare cluster of Q1a3*.
    They descend from Ossetian prince David Soslan (12th century AD) who married a Georgian queen of Bagrationi royal house.
    The point is there is no single Q1a3* among modern Ossetians... So prince David Soslan might have been of Hun, Khazar or Scythian ancestry himself,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Interestingly Georgian royal dinasty belongs to a rare cluster of Q1a3*.
    They descend from Ossetian prince David Soslan (12th century AD) who married a Georgian queen of Bagrationi royal house.
    The point is there is no single Q1a3* among modern Ossetians... So prince David Soslan might have been of Hun, Khazar or Scythian ancestry himself,
    Scythian unlikely because they would have been rather Q1b. Hun maybe, becaue Huns were mixed Scythians, Massagaeta and Mongols. Khazar likely because they were Turkic, although with strong Iranic element like all Turkic groups.

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    Isn't Q common in pre-colonial America?

    Q is descendent of P which branched into Q and R.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmon View Post

    Q is descendent of P which branched into Q and R.
    Long time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Long time ago.
    The Ps made it all over the world. Qs were in MesoAmerica and Rs are in Western Europe.

    They both show up around the same time wolves are allegedly domesticated. MesoAmerican Qs had dogs. Western Europeans Rs had dogs.

    They might have gotten there on dog sleds... just saying. The Qs probably come from the same place Rs come from... a place with lots of wolves.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmon View Post
    The Ps made it all over the world. Qs were in MesoAmerica and Rs are in Western Europe.

    They both show up around the same time wolves are allegedly domesticated. MesoAmerican Qs had dogs. Western Europeans Rs had dogs.

    They might have gotten there on dog sleds... just saying. The Qs probably come from the same place Rs come from... a place with lots of wolves.
    What I wanted to know basically was that is it possible that the Haplogroup Q in Europe was of a Caucasoid origin (European) or a Mongoloid origin. (Asian)

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