Could Haplogroup Q in Europe be actually of Indo-European origin?

[Melancon]

>>> There seemed to be no forum for Haplogroup Q, so I decided I would post it here in the Y-DNA forum instead. I apologize.



The generally accepted theory is that haplogroup Q entered the European gene-pool with a possible Hunnic or Mongolian invasion into Europe. It also seems that haplogroup Q peaks in the Kets and the Selkups of North Asia. (Both of Mongoloid ethnicities) carry Haplogroup Q at a very large frequency. However, the problem is: they are a very small population. (Kets having only 1,600 people; while the Selkups have only a population of 3,649. according to Wikipedia)

I think, given the small amount of their population; it seems very doubtful that a small tribe of Mongoloids could have enslaved Europe and spread this haplogroup around. Supposedly found in Europe as well as in Asia, among both Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations; this theory doesn't seem to hold up well. For Haplogroup Q to have a Hunnic (or Mongoloid) origin seems to be quite impossible to me.

In Uzbekistan, Haplogroup Q1a is carried at 10% frequency in their population; and about 14% in population among Turkmenistan population. Which makes for a total of about 4 million Uzbeks and Turkmen carrying Haplogroup Q. Still, this doesn't seem big enough for a Hunnic or Mongoloid origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242

Kets:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people

Selkups:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkup_people


So, at least to me; in theory, since haplogroup R1a and R1b are descendants of Haplogroup P; and so is Haplogroup Q. Would it not make better sense that Haplogroup Q1a was merely a minor subclade; that was carried with Indo-Europeans? In other words, could Caucasoids have carried haplogroup Q without any Hunnic or Mongoloid admixture? Haplogroup Q seems to be the most prominent in Europe among people of Germanic and Slavic ancestry; just like R1a.


We must also remember the Indo-Iranians and the Tocharian Indo-Europeans who once had these territories (Central Asia); and also carried haplogroup R1a at a high frequency.

If Haplogroup Q in Europe is Hunnic/Mongoloid; what happened to all the Mongoloid Asian women and men? Did they get killed off in a massive holocaust by the Germans, Scythians and Slavic people? This is where we have the problem with this Hunnic hypothesis.

Haplogroup-Q.jpg


Notice the small droplet of Haplogroup Q near the region of Savoy in France; near Switzerland. It seems very reminiscent of Haplogroup R1a in France:

Haplogroup-R1a.jpg

R1a and Q may have been brought to Southeast France by the Burgundians; who were an Eastern Germanic tribe. (inhabiting what is now Poland, which population has the most R1a in Europe.)


So, any comments? Discuss.

[Rethel]

Hg Q surely isn't indoeuropean at origin.

As I said before, and what you partialy repeated:

The map made by Maciamo shows, that presence of Q can have diffrent origin. For example,
presence in Britain, Burgundy, Normandy, Germany, south baltic lands, Novgorod-Land and
some part of Ukraine and even in Sicily can be from Scandinavia. The scandinavian Qpeople
can be simply non known migration from Syberia like the uralic N-people. It doesn't have to
be a great or very ancient migration. It could be very old migrantion of course, but could be
independent too. Rest of Q in south Poland, Balkans & Ukraine can be remains after Hunns,
Avars, Bulgars, Kumans, Pechingans, Hungarians, Tatars, Ottomans and Mongols invasions.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post453480

For hg Q is not need to be indoeuropean at origin, and it is obvious
that this haplogroup is binded in Eurasia with Yeniseian languages.
People simply could travel thoughout whole northern Eurasia.
Especialy if they were HG or reindeer herders in antiquity...

[Melancon]

Hg Q surely isn't indoeuropean at origin.

As I said before, and what you partialy repeated:

The map made by Maciamo shows, that presence of Q can have diffrent origin. For example,
presence in Britain, Burgundy, Normandy, Germany, south baltic lands, Novgorod-Land and
some part of Ukraine and even in Sicily can be from Scandinavia. The scandinavian Qpeople
can be simply non known migration from Syberia like the uralic N-people. It doesn't have to
be a great or very ancient migration. It could be very old migrantion of course, but could be
independent too. Rest of Q in south Poland, Balkans & Ukraine can be remains after Hunns,
Avars, Bulgars, Kumans, Pechingans, Hungarians, Tatars, Ottomans and Mongols invasions.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post453480

For hg Q is not need to be indoeuropean at origin, and it is obvious
that this haplogroup is binded in Eurasia with Yeniseian languages.
People simply could travel thoughout whole northern Eurasia.
Especialy if they were HG or reindeer herders in antiquity...

No offense, but once again; you are totally ignorant on the matter. The haplogroup Q seen in Sicily and Southern Portugal/Spain is most likely of Phoenician, Jewish or Afro-Asiatic origin. It is the subclade of Haplogroup Q1b; not Q1a. Phoenicians and Jews are Afro-Asiatic speaking Caucasoids/Levant people.

The subclade of Q found in Sicily and South Portugal / South Spain is of Phoenician colonist or Sephardic Jewish origin; entering from North Africa.

[Rethel]

No offense, but once again; you are totally ignorant on the matter. The haplogroup Q seen in Sicily and Southern Portugal/Spain is most likely of Phoenician, Jewish or Afro-Asiatic origin. It is the subclade of Haplogroup Q1b; not Q1a. Phoenicians and Jews are Afro-Asiatic speaking Caucasoids/Levant people.

The subclade of Q found in Sicily and South Portugal / South Spain is of Phoenician colonist or Sephardic Jewish; entering from North Africa.

Did I should enumerate every potential source of Q, to be not called total ignorat?
You forget about Indians and Eskimos who comes to Europe in last 1000 years...
Even in Poland we have some Indians. So, are you a total ignorant?

[Melancon]

Did I should enumerate every potential source of Q, to be not called total ignorat?
You forget about Indians and Eskimos who comes to Europe in last 1000 years...
Even in Poland we have some Indians. So, are you a total ignorant?

I presume when you mention Indian you are talking about Roma people, right? Because they are predominantly of Y-DNA H. No haplogroup Q in them whatsoever.

"You forget about Indians and Eskimos who comes to Europe in last 1000 years..."

Eskimos, right? Mainland Europe isn't Iceland or Greenland, buddy. And the Hunnic Empire only lasted for a few decades in the 5th century before it dispersed. There is no way any Hunnic Mongols could have spread Haplogroup Q in Europe in such a short amount of time. In only 49 years of the Hunnic Empire; these Mongoloids carrying Q1a managed to spread their seed around Europe in only 5 decades. Wow!

You do realize that wherever R1a is very abundant; there also seems to be a small trace frequency of Q1a as well? Norway, Germany and Southeast France are good examples of where R1a and Q seem to correlate/follow each other in frequency.

[Melancon]

Did I should enumerate every potential source of Q, to be not called total ignorat?
You forget about Indians and Eskimos who comes to Europe in last 1000 years...
Even in Poland we have some Indians. So, are you a total ignorant?

How do we know that the Huns were Mongoloids too? What if the Huns were an Indo-European people?

What if the Huns were Goths and Scythians? It would explain why Slavs and Nordic Germans carry R1a and Q.

[bicicleur]

some Q tribes may have joined Indo-Europeans , like here : http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...116-1/abstract http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...dle-Bronze-Age : Q1a2-L54 and R1a-Z93 joined in Karasuk culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasuk_culture
The origins of the Karasuk culture are complex, but it is generally accepted that its origins lie both with the Andronovo culture and local cultures of the Yenisei.^[1] The ethnic identity of the Karasuk is problematic, as the Andronovo culture has been associated with the Indo-Iranians while the local cultures have been considered as unconnected to the steppe

furthermore you must realize Q1a was split in many smaller subclades before arrival in Europe , so each subclade may have arrived in Europe at a different time
during LGM (last ice age 20000 years ago) Q1a1 and Q1a2 were allready several 1000 km apart : Q1a2 (ancestral to Native Americans) was in the Siberian far east (north of Sakhalin peninsula) while Q1a1 (ancestral to Eskimo's) was west of lake Bajkal (Mal'ta or Afantova Gora culture)

[Melancon]

Interestingly; I noticed that R1b is also prevalent among Turkmen at around a 20% frequency. Wonder what this means. After all; Turkmenistan pretty much is Central Asia; the hypothetical origin of R1b.

[Power77]

No offense, but once again; you are totally ignorant on the matter. The haplogroup Q seen in Sicily and Southern Portugal/Spain is most likely of Phoenician, Jewish or Afro-Asiatic origin. It is the subclade of Haplogroup Q1b; not Q1a. Phoenicians and Jews are Afro-Asiatic speaking Caucasoids/Levant people.

The subclade of Q found in Sicily and South Portugal / South Spain is of Phoenician colonist or Sephardic Jewish origin; entering from North Africa.

I believe hg Q1b in some modern Afro-Asiatic people (ie, Jews, Lebanese) could be explained by admixture from either a source Iranic (ie, Indo-European) or Upper Paleolithic pre-Semitic (and pre-Indo-European) population.

[Drac II]

No offense, but once again; you are totally ignorant on the matter. The haplogroup Q seen in Sicily and Southern Portugal/Spain is most likely of Phoenician, Jewish or Afro-Asiatic origin. It is the subclade of Haplogroup Q1b; not Q1a. Phoenicians and Jews are Afro-Asiatic speaking Caucasoids/Levant people.

The subclade of Q found in Sicily and South Portugal / South Spain is of Phoenician colonist or Sephardic Jewish origin; entering from North Africa.

And the Hunnic Empire only lasted for a few decades in the 5th century before it dispersed. There is no way any Hunnic Mongols could have spread Haplogroup Q in Europe in such a short amount of time. In only 49 years of the Hunnic Empire; these Mongoloids carrying Q1a managed to spread their seed around Europe in only 5 decades. Wow!

How do we know that the Huns were Mongoloids too? What if the Huns were an Indo-European people?

1- It is not possible to conclude that Q1b in southern Iberia has to be due wholly or even mostly to "Phoenician colonists or Sephardic Jews", you already tried arguing this before and you saw that the same sub-clade appears elsewhere in Europe as well (like Central Europe)

2- The Huns were already in Europe during Roman times quite before their roughly 80 year long empire had even begun. Romans employed Huns as mercenaries in their armies. And you said it yourself, the Hunnish empire simply "dispersed", it was never "expelled". It basically imploded due to the inability of the successors of Attila to keep up the empire.

3- Because archaeologists and anthropologists have actually bothered to look into Hunnish burial grounds in Europe and have found a high proportion of Mongoloid and/or Mongoloid-admixed skeletons in them. Even some Germanic tribes, like the Lombards, show craniological evidence of some Mongoloid admixture likely due to contact with the Huns:

"In the meanwhile, the Huns contributed a mongoloid element, diluted through mixture with the Gepidae... Lombard crania from two sites: from Nikitsch in the Oberpullendoff district of Burgenland, and Vinzen, near Regensburg, in Lower Austria; both dating from the fifty year interval which the Lombards spent north of the mountains before their final burst into Italy in 568 A.D. Eight skulls are those of the usual Germanic variety of Nordics, with some exceptionally tall- and large-skulled individuals, while five others ranging in cranial index from 77 to 93, show in their flat faces and broad nasal bones clear traces of mongoloid mixture." - Carleton Coon, "The Races of Europe".

[Melancon]

1- It is not possible to conclude that Q1b in southern Iberia has to be due wholly or even mostly to "Phoenician colonists or Sephardic Jews", you already tried arguing this before and you saw that the same sub-clade appears elsewhere in Europe as well (like Central Europe)

Oh gosh, not this guy again.

"It is not possible to conclude" - We have been through this before Drac. It is obvious that no other source could have brought Q1b to the Iberian peninsula or Sicily than Levantine people. (most likely Phoenician colonists or Sephardic Jews). So yes it is possible. Did you not notice the small strip of haplogroup Q in Southern Iberia? Nobody else could have brought that there but Phoenicians. They arrived there long before the Bronze Age. And, there are no records of Mongol invasions of Iberia from North Africa...So how else did Q get there?

And I have never seen Q1b in Central Europe....can you give me a source? But I would assume if it was there; it's likely because some Germanic people or the German nobility may have intermarried with Jews. Which I know that this may be true; about a few centuries ago. According to rumors told from some Germans I know.

Please do not hijack my thread into an Iberian history / genetic admixture debate.

[John Doe]

Oh gosh, not this guy again.

"It is not possible to conclude" - We have been through this before Drac. It is obvious that no other source could have brought Q1b to the Iberian peninsula or Sicily than Levantine people. (most likely Phoenician colonists or Sephardic Jews). So yes it is possible. Did you not notice the small strip of haplogroup Q in Southern Iberia? Nobody else could have brought that there but Phoenicians. They arrived there long before the Bronze Age. And, there are no records of Mongol invasions of Iberia from North Africa...So how else did Q get there?

And I have never seen Q1b in Central Europe....can you give me a source? But I would assume if it was there; it's likely because some Germanic people or the German nobility may have intermarried with Jews. Which I know that this may be true; about a few centuries ago. According to rumors told from some Germans I know.

Please do not hijack my thread into an Iberian history / genetic admixture debate.

I can only assume that the time you're talking of, Jews marrying into the German nobility is around the 19th century, I have one great example, Limen Von Sanders, who was the German attache to the Ottoman empire, responsible for the German forces in Syria and for the defenses in key areas such as Gaza during world war 1, was from Prussian nobility, and his father was of Jewish origin. Another example would be the only Jewish family to reach the status of European nobility, the Rothschild family, intermarried the non Jewish European nobility families of Europe, like many other families. In fact, the ruling houses that waged war in Europe a century ago, were almost all related in one way or another. I've heard that Q1b among Ashkenazi Jews may in fact come from Khazars, however, if it's true that Sephardics and modern Lebanese posses it as well, then I can only assume that it wasn't the Khazars.

[bicicleur]

Interestingly; I noticed that R1b is also prevalent among Turkmen at around a 20% frequency. Wonder what this means. After all; Turkmenistan pretty much is Central Asia; the hypothetical origin of R1b.

Indo Europeans were all over the steppe, from the Carpaths to western Mongolia, till Turkic tribes ousted Indo-Europeans from the steppes in northern Kazakhstan.
It is safe to assume that R1b and Q1a in Turkmenistan come from the steppes up north. Is there also R1a in Turkmensistan?

[Melancon]

Indo Europeans were all over the steppe, from the Carpaths to western Mongolia, till Turkic tribes ousted Indo-Europeans from the steppes in northern Kazakhstan.
It is safe to assume that R1b and Q1a in Turkmenistan come from the steppes up north. Is there also R1a in Turkmensistan?

Well, I'm not sure...but it seems that there is a major downturn of R1a in North and Central Asia. Not sure how much this says. Can you give me a broader analysis on what this might mean?




1280px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg.jpg

[epoch]

R1a and Q may have been brought to Southeast France by the Burgundians; who were an Eastern Germanic tribe. (inhabiting what is now Poland, which population has the most R1a in Europe.)


So, any comments? Discuss.

Burgundians originated from Bornholm, part of the high Q area.

[Melancon]

Burgundians originated from Bornholm, part of the high Q area.

Oh. Good find. I understand now.

[Drac II]

Oh gosh, not this guy again.

"It is not possible to conclude" - We have been through this before Drac. It is obvious that no other source could have brought Q1b to the Iberian peninsula or Sicily than Levantine people. (most likely Phoenician colonists or Sephardic Jews). So yes it is possible. Did you not notice the small strip of haplogroup Q in Southern Iberia? Nobody else could have brought that there but Phoenicians. They arrived there long before the Bronze Age. And, there are no records of Mongol invasions of Iberia from North Africa...So how else did Q get there?

And I have never seen Q1b in Central Europe....can you give me a source? But I would assume if it was there; it's likely because some Germanic people or the German nobility may have intermarried with Jews. Which I know that this may be true; about a few centuries ago. According to rumors told from some Germans I know.

Please do not hijack my thread into an Iberian history / genetic admixture debate.

I am not "hijacking" anything, you were the one who brought up this haplogroup and Iberia again. And the source for the fact that Q1b is also found in Central Europe is your very same source for it being found in southern Iberia, namely Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

There were no Phoenicians in Central Europe, so obviously someone else brought it there, so there is nothing impossible in someone else also bringing it to southern Iberia either.

[Sile]

The Q in Spain, Iceland and Britain looks entirely Norse .............

[Melancon]

The Q in Spain, Iceland and Britain looks entirely Norse .............

Do you have a source? Pretty sure the Q in Spain and Portugal is the Q1b subclade.

[Melancon]

I am not "hijacking" anything, you were the one who brought up this haplogroup and Iberia again. And the source for the fact that Q1b is also found in Central Europe is your very same source for it being found in southern Iberia, namely Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

There were no Phoenicians in Central Europe, so obviously someone else brought it there, so there is nothing impossible in someone else also bringing it to southern Iberia either.

Maybe Q1b could also be Indo-European but wouldn't the small residual in Southern Iberia be more likely to be acquainted with Phoenicians or Levantine peoples?

[Melancon]

I am not "hijacking" anything, you were the one who brought up this haplogroup and Iberia again. And the source for the fact that Q1b is also found in Central Europe is your very same source for it being found in southern Iberia, namely Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

There were no Phoenicians in Central Europe, so obviously someone else brought it there, so there is nothing impossible in someone else also bringing it to southern Iberia either.

I apologize for the rude counter-argument. I am often very blunt and wary when I debate with certain people; and can often make people upset out of sarcasm and skepticism. I am not trying to be mean. I will allow you to make your own perspectives and analysis of this subject.

[Rethel]

I didn't watch this yet, but
maybe it will be interesting...

[Alan]

No offense, but once again; you are totally ignorant on the matter. The haplogroup Q seen in Sicily and Southern Portugal/Spain is most likely of Phoenician, Jewish or Afro-Asiatic origin. It is the subclade of Haplogroup Q1b; not Q1a. Phoenicians and Jews are Afro-Asiatic speaking Caucasoids/Levant people.

The subclade of Q found in Sicily and South Portugal / South Spain is of Phoenician colonist or Sephardic Jewish origin; entering from North Africa.

Q1b is Iranic, Q1b in Jews (Mostly Ashkenazi), Phoenicians and Sicilians (was one one of the visit points of Alans) probably got it through contact with Iranic tribes. Q1b is not "Afro Asiatic".

Q1b which is found in Iberia is either of Alanic or Phoenician descend.

[Melancon]

Q1b is Iranic, Q1b in Jews (Mostly Ashkenazi), Phoenicians and Sicilians (was one one of the visit points of Alans). Probably got it through contact with Iranic tribes. Q1b is not "Afro Asiatic.

Q1b is found in Iberia is either of Alanic of Phoenician descend.

I see what you're saying now.

[Alan]

I've heard that Q1b among Ashkenazi Jews may in fact come from Khazars, however, if it's true that Sephardics and modern Lebanese posses it as well, then I can only assume that it wasn't the Khazars.

With the words of Maciamo, unlikely because it is Q1b. Q among Turkic speakers should be Q1a.

However what I found the more likely scenario is a West (Mesopotamian) Parthian origin of the Jewish Q1b. The Parthians called themselves Ashkanians. There was not too far ago also a study on the R1a found in the Ashkenazi Jews and the conclusion was it probably came from a region between the Zagros and Mesopotamia.