suebi y-dna input in north portugal and galicia

[suebiking]

So I wonder why there is so much I(y-dna) in the braga region as portraied by beleza et al because there is ~18% of I(y-dna). I also know that this city was the capital of the suebi kingdom in galicia and noth portugal but in this specific area there is much more I(y-dna) than even in some parts of north europe.Could this be till this day the genetic input of the suebi people or there is something more to it.Since I am from the braga(minho) area I am curious to see what do you guys think because in terms of phenotype there are lots of blonds and blue/green eyed people but so much I(y-dna) when comparing with eupedia numbers of I(y-dna) for north european countries.As for the phenotype I am not saying we are different from other iberians, actually I think my family would cluster very well with galicians but people from my area seem to be a bit different from other portuguese in appearence, but never ever get me wrong I love Portugal and Spain as well.

PS: All this thing of the rest of europe sometimes consedering ibereans as different when we are genetically very close to other europeans makes me sad, they talk about some portuguese and spanish mostly from the south not looking european, what they don't consider is that probably the genes that originate that appearence have been here in iberia since a long time in the past maybe paleotithic/mesolithic iberians.

So I am waiting anxiously for your feedback on this matter.

Oh I want you guys to comment all the other data on beleza et al as well if you may. i know it is a mainly portuguese study but i would like very much people from other countries specially spain commenting on the data i would be very pleased.

[Angela]

So I wonder why there is so much I(y-dna) in the braga region as portraied by beleza et al because there is ~18% of I(y-dna). I also know that this city was the capital of the suebi kingdom in galicia and noth portugal but in this specific area there is much more I(y-dna) than even in some parts of north europe.Could this be till this day the genetic input of the suebi people or there is something more to it.Since I am from the braga(minho) area I am curious to see what do you guys think because in terms of phenotype there are lots of blonds and blue/green eyed people but so much I(y-dna) when comparing with eupedia numbers of I(y-dna) for north european countries.As for the phenotype I am not saying we are different from other iberians, actually I think my family would cluster very well with galicians but people from my area seem to be a bit different from other portuguese in appearence, but never ever get me wrong I love Portugal and Spain as well.

PS: All this thing of the rest of europe sometimes consedering ibereans as different when we are genetically very close to other europeans makes me sad, they talk about some portuguese and spanish mostly from the south not looking european, what they don't consider is that probably the genes that originate that appearence have been here in iberia since a long time in the past maybe paleotithic/mesolithic iberians.

So I am waiting anxiously for your feedback on this matter.

Oh I want you guys to comment all the other data on beleza et al as well if you may. i know it is a mainly portuguese study but i would like very much people from other countries specially spain commenting on the data i would be very pleased.

It would be helpful if, in the future, you could provide a link to the papers being cited. In this case, this is the Beleza et al 2006 study in question:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00221.x/full

There are hotspots of certain yDna and mtDna subclades throughout Europe. National averages and even regional averages can be quite different. (Also, total similarity is, in my opinion, much more correlated to autosomal Dna. )

You can find the national averages (and some regional ones) for yDna I1, which is the variety associated with Fenno-Scandia and Germany, and using much more than one paper, at the following link:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Whether, in the case of your particular area, the local "fairer", phenotypes are due to more Suebi ancestors in that area than in others I don't know.

It's ironic, because my au pair was from a Portuguese American community that was almost all from Porto, and they were probably the darkest Europeans I've ever known. That's been a lesson to me not to draw too many conclusions based on some subset of diaspora people when imagining the phenotypes of Europeans.

Oh, as to people who would post that people from anywhere in Spain or Portugal are not European, I would recommend that you consider the source and not take it too seriously. There are strange people out there with strange agendas and beliefs. Best to realize that most people give such opinions short shrift. The world of the anthrofora is not reality, you know.

[Hauteville]

Go quite here Suebi, here is much different from other forums. In other parts of the web there are some insane people with an agenda against some southern Europeans (southern Italians and especially Sicilian and Calabrians are the most trolled by some mad people) but here it is extremely different, luckily.
About your answer, the only link i can post for you is the map of Germanic Y-dna lineages of Europe.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y...shtml#Germanic

[sparkey]

You may be reading just a bit too much into it, considering that the sample size is 51. That makes the error bars almost as big as the total percentage of Haplogroup I in that sample. To me, I don't really see the large difference between the total amount of Haplogroup I in the Braga sample and the total amount of Haplogroup I in the Porto sample as evidence of Braga having a special Suebic or other Germanic influence that Porto lacks. I see it more as evidence of statistical fluctuation, with the Braga sample ending up on the high end by coincidence.

More useful to me are the aggregated numbers. The Viana do Castelo + Braga + Porto samples combined give a sample size of 228 (much better) and an average Haplogroup I percentage of 8.4. That result is closely collaborated by Goncalves et al 2006's 7% Haplogroup I result for their "North Portugal" sample of 101 individuals. After extracting the M26 (the most clearly non-Germanic Haplogroup I subclade) it seems that we end up left with between 5-7% Germanic (or at least apparently Germanic) Haplogroup I in North Portugal.

[suebiking]

You may be reading just a bit too much into it, considering that the sample size is 51. That makes the error bars almost as big as the total percentage of Haplogroup I in that sample. To me, I don't really see the large difference between the total amount of Haplogroup I in the Braga sample and the total amount of Haplogroup I in the Porto sample as evidence of Braga having a special Suebic or other Germanic influence that Porto lacks. I see it more as evidence of statistical fluctuation, with the Braga sample ending up on the high end by coincidence.

More useful to me are the aggregated numbers. The Viana do Castelo + Braga + Porto samples combined give a sample size of 228 (much better) and an average Haplogroup I percentage of 8.4.

Well i would be a foul if i did not agree That the sample size is too small to take any big conclusions of it but what i said about the phenotype does not change. People from porto being less fairer well maybe they werent native from there however even braga That has lote of very White People has some darker People That also happens in galicia
After all there are no pure populations even in germany you see whiter and darker People.lets Just say That while most of the population has the typical portuguese skintone which is a bit darker than germanics or germanic skintone,there are also darker People

[suebiking]

I forgot to say That the North of Portugal is a very mountanous place and every population is different so the best to do was have more samples from braga.it is not wise to join all the North.it is like joining galicia with castille-leon só it shouldn't be done but hey this is only my perspective because i know this populations well but i agree That in other peoples eyes the North of Portugal is a already very small area to separate into even smaller ones but believe me it should be done.

Dont you guys find curious that in beleza et al there was found no j2 in Braga which even with the small sample size is considerable when the table from eupedia shows 9.5 for Portugal

[Mars]

I hope it's not too off topic, however, I find the journey of the Vandals (who were allied with the Subi if I'm not wrong), across Europe and North Africa very interesting. How much genetic input did they leave? Are there traces left in North Africa? I know they were expelled at a certain point, but according to Wikipedia Many Vandals went to Saldae (today called Béjaïa in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Many others were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom). Some Vandal women married Byzantine soldiers and settled in north Algeria and Tunisia.

[Aaron1981]

So I wonder why there is so much I(y-dna) in the braga region as portraied by beleza et al because there is ~18% of I(y-dna). I also know that this city was the capital of the suebi kingdom in galicia and noth portugal but in this specific area there is much more I(y-dna) than even in some parts of north europe.Could this be till this day the genetic input of the suebi people or there is something more to it.Since I am from the braga(minho) area I am curious to see what do you guys think because in terms of phenotype there are lots of blonds and blue/green eyed people but so much I(y-dna) when comparing with eupedia numbers of I(y-dna) for north european countries.As for the phenotype I am not saying we are different from other iberians, actually I think my family would cluster very well with galicians but people from my area seem to be a bit different from other portuguese in appearence, but never ever get me wrong I love Portugal and Spain as well.

PS: All this thing of the rest of europe sometimes consedering ibereans as different when we are genetically very close to other europeans makes me sad, they talk about some portuguese and spanish mostly from the south not looking european, what they don't consider is that probably the genes that originate that appearence have been here in iberia since a long time in the past maybe paleotithic/mesolithic iberians.

So I am waiting anxiously for your feedback on this matter.

Oh I want you guys to comment all the other data on beleza et al as well if you may. i know it is a mainly portuguese study but i would like very much people from other countries specially spain commenting on the data i would be very pleased.

I2 in several varieties has been found in Neolithic Spain, but not limited to I2-M26 and I2-M223 and was therefore likely present during the mesolithic period. You might be referring to I1, which could have been isolated mostly to northern and/or eastern Europe. In such a scenario, it may have more likely spread with Germanic speakers - you are correct. However, there is nowhere in Spain which will turn up 18% I1, it just won't happen. Maybe when you take a small sample of 30 men who are all related in a small village, but that's not representative of a population as a whole. Sample size should always be considered and throwing out percentages at random holds little value.

[suebiking]

it is not in spain but in portugal altough what you said is most likely correct it is just i am portuguese not spanish

[Johannes]

I hope it's not too off topic, however, I find the journey of the Vandals (who were allied with the Subi if I'm not wrong), across Europe and North Africa very interesting. How much genetic input did they leave? Are there traces left in North Africa? I know they were expelled at a certain point, but according to Wikipedia Many Vandals went to Saldae (today called Béjaïa in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Many others were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom). Some Vandal women married Byzantine soldiers and settled in north Algeria and Tunisia.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information about certain historical people. The Vandals fought a series of wars with The Byzantine Empire for the control of North Africa and the Western Mediterranean. These wars eventually killed most of the Vandal men. The ones who survived eventually migrated to the Visigothic Kingdom and all the widowed Vandal women were married off to Byzantine men and went back to Greece or Italy. The Vandals lived only in Tunisia and did not mix with the Berbers. Therefore their genetic input would have been nil.

[Johannes]

I am very well-read in Spanish History and I read all the journals I could find on Medieval Spanish History while I was a graduate student and know about the Moorish occupation. However, there is very little studies on the History of Portugal, especially the Medieval period. I do know that after the Berber Revolt of 750 almost all the Berbers were allowed to settle in the Algarve region of Portugal. The other region were the Berbers settled was in the Granada region and Murcia regions. After the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa (1212) the chronicles of Castile state that all the Berbers were ethnically cleansed from Andalusia (many by emigration and others by force). Thus very little numbers of Berbers and other non-Europeans were left in Andalusia. I have seen some Portuguese and have noticed some are dark-skinned and do not resemble Europeans. However, since I am not well versed in Portuguese History can you tell me if the Berbers were ethnically cleansed from Southern Portugal? As far as the sources I read before they never mentioned this (they always focused on Spain as opposed to Portugal). Probably many Berbers were allowed to remain in Portugal because they converted to Christianity? Do you know?

[Pedro Gomes]

That is awesome. I would like to know the source. High frequencies of I1in Portugal are explained by the settlement of the suebi in Porto and Braga. Do not forget Povoa de Varzim strong Viking heritage. Some of the fishermen from Povoa look like Scandinavians.

[suebiking]

Well, I don't know for sure about the berber question in south portugal, it is very probable that some were allowed to stay.About the suebi and viking heritage it is very likely that the number of suebi along with other tribes was much bigger than what was estimated but they settled in particular areas( mountainous) more confined to inbreading, this is the case with povoa do varzim as well. It is also not uncommon to see brothers some with nordic features and others with more atlantic and even mediterranean ones.For example my paternal side out of ten siblings, two/three are nordic and the others I wouldn't quite classify they well may be nordic with atlanto mediterranean and although most are light skinned, all of them except the nordic types get really tanned in the summer and look somewhat palid in the winter. Maybe the result of miscigenation between germanics and the natives and has expected the native traits are more prevalent even today. Curious the nordic types are all men. Portugal is a very interesting place to study genetics. You can see a complete nordic type or a person with more berberian traits. I would love to study the region of the minho myself, I reallly would.

[Pedro Gomes]

There were about 30 to 40 thousand suebi invaders. Most of them settled around today Porto and Braga. I can tell you my grandmother had ash-blond hair and was the tallest in our village.

[Pedro Gomes]

Could you provide me with further genetic results? I want the source of the studies

[suebiking]

Unfortunately you only have one y-dna study that has done research on different portuguese districts and not the generic north vs south type of study.This was the case of beleza et al, there is only one problem, they only separated the E subclades and on the I subclades only I from I-m26, I think so you cannot get an idea. Even worse is that the sample size is too small to be conclusive, you only get an idea. I will provide you with a link to beleza et al, there is a y-dna table there. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00221.x/full

[suebiking]

Just out of curiosity Pedro Gomes, where are you from?, I am from Braga( Capitalis du minhus superum est ) " just a beer slogan in Braga.

[Pedro Gomes]

I am from Porto as everyone of my ancestors. The test on the haplogroups is not too deep. The branch I haplogroup found in Portugal is the ancestor of I-m253, common among Scandinavians. If u notice the same happens
with the r1b. I guess that if a deeper studied was made it would reveal
that I branch is m253. 40000 suebi are not few by the time of the invasion.
They settled mostly in our region Porto and Braga. What happens with Porto is that
was recently populated by people from other regions while Braga and Povoa
were kept more untouched by rural exodus.

[suebiking]

Well as far as I know all my family is from braga as early as 1850 except from one ancestor from nearby vila verde, in the mountains, in valdreu to be specific, I think maciamo's theory is correct, in the cities remained the iberian communities and in the countryside the germanic communities. Both branches of my family are from braga's countryside apart from one ancestor from the mountains 20 km away since braga's district records are one of the best kept in the world I will try to verify it till the early 15th century, yes it can be done, the records are well kept and they feature the complete name of the father, mother and grandparents along with the wife and the years of birth and death making it easy to identify. It might be tougher for you if your ancestors are from porto because it always was a big city while my families records are from small villages that yelded 500 max people at the same time making it easy to search. About all the I haplogroups being I-m253, I believe it is not totally true, you would have found if the subclade tests were done a lot of I-m223 and l38. At the same time for example in another study that is on iberian roots braga had 12% of haplogroup I( I thinkso around that) so you can see the tendency but with more samples and confirming even as less as 6% of I-m253 it would be a huge amount for a place so far way from the place where germanic tribes lived.

[suebiking]

What I don't understand is why so reputed universities as porto and minho don't compare the dna of nowadays braga inhabitants with distant ancestors beeing of braga as well it suebi remains, even roman remains and medieval frankish remains. What are they afraid of, prooving that north-west portuguese are germanic or disproving. What matters is the truth. If a very well-done study on north-west portuguese said that we are just as germanic as other iberian peoples and that our beliefs and our predecessors beliefs about our ancestry are wrong then we would just have to accept the truth. It makes me sick that my town hostes great roman and even germanic festivals, some villages have germanic names(or influenced) and yet they don't care about genetics. It is like the celtic case we hoste celtic festivals in union with galicia and we don't try to prove our heritage just because we are afraid the dna tests could tell us that we are in fact not celtic. Sometimes and only sometimes I am ashamed of my own people's decisions but I have to deal with it. Hopefully I will test my own dna (autosomal,y-dna and mt-dna) then I will prove or disprove my suspicions of germanic heritage along with celtic, italic and even if I have any connection to berbers or basques, the later is most probably true.With time those tests get more accurate.

[Pedro Gomes]

If we joined to the study the r1bbranch u105 we would have a lot of germanic input. It is not only the Ihaplogroup. I am sure our region is one of the most genetically germanicregions compared to the whole of Iberia, most of France, Austria and southernGermany. These haplogroups must come from the suebi and from the Vikings as thehistory records tell. What really happens in Portugal is that media only talksabout history of the south of thecountry. They forget us or want to forget about us since I believe they havesome inferior complex towards northern portuguese being more celtic andgermanic.

[Pedro Gomes]

If we joined to the study the r1bbranch u105 we would have a lot of germanic input. It is not only the Ihaplogroup. I am sure our region is one of the most genetically germanicregions compared to the whole of Iberia, most of France, Austria and southernGermany. These haplogroups must come from the suebi and from the Vikings as thehistory records tell. What really happens in Portugal is that media only talksabout history of the south of thecountry. They forget us or want to forget about us since I believe they havesome inferior complex towards northern portuguese being more celtic andgermanic.

[Pedro Gomes]

Check the I-m253

[Pedro Gomes]

[nuno77]

What really happens in Portugal is that media only talksabout history of the south of thecountry. They forget us or want to forget about us since I believe they havesome inferior complex towards northern portuguese being more celtic andgermanic.

Boas, correcto! É como aquela reportagem do Bandarra na TVI em que foram a Alcácer do Sal e extrapolaram para falar na grande herança africana/árabe/moura.
"Grande" pode ser um exagero na realidade de Portugal. Sim, de facto existem provas, mas é preciso ter em conta alguns aspectos:
- árabes devem ser poucos; podem ser judeus;
- mais do que árabe, existe Berbere do Norte de África;
- mesmo Norte de África e África subsaariana pode ser antes de Cristo: há um estudo na Net que postula que 35% destas linhagens são muito antigas e 65% vieram depois de Cristo.