J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)

@Angela

I think there has been a misunderstanding.

I mentioned in the Frontex thread that the migrants in the Med were mostly African and Syrian.

I did not mention J1 and Etruscans.

You're correct. It was my mistake.
 
Vallicanus and Yetos, any discussion of immigration into Europe should take place in the appropriate thread. However, keep it civil and fact based. Your comments are objectionable. Consider yourselves both cautioned.
 
J-M267 is found in many sub-populations in southern Europe, so the Etruscans can't be the reason. Or better, it can not be ruled out but certainly J-M267 is not related with the Etruscans only. And the highest percentages of J-M267 in Italy and Europe are not found in Tuscany.


PopulationSample sizeTotal J-M267J-M267(xP58)J-P58
publication
Malta907.8%NANAEl-Sibai 2009[4]
Crete1938.3%NANAKing 2008
Greece (mainland)1714.7%NANAKing 2008
Macedonia (Greece)561.8%NANASemino 2004
Greece2491.6%NANADi Giacomo 2004
Bulgaria8083.4%NANAKarachanak 2013
Romania1301.5%NANADi Giacomo 2004
Russia2230.4%NANADi Giacomo 2004
Republic of Macedonia Albanian speakers646.3%NANABattaglia 2008
Albania563.6%NANASemino 2004
Slovenia751.3%NANABattaglia 2008
Italians (northeast)670.0%NANABattaglia 2008
Italians9150.7%NANACapelli 2009
Sicily2363.8%NANADi Gaetano 2008
Provence (France)512%NANAKing 2011
Portugal (North)1011.0%NANAGonçalves 2005
Portugal (Centre)1024.9%NANAGonçalves 2005
Portugal (South)1007.0%NANAGonçalves 2005
Açores1212.5%NANAGonçalves 2005
Madeira1290.0%NANAGonçalves 2005






I agree.

Thank you for the data Pax Augusta, but could you post the paper from which it is drawn?
 
Indeed, J1 is more frequent in Greece, Malta, Albania and parts of Iberia.

As helpful as it is, this is one paper. The Eupedia map of the distribution of J1 is more informative because it shows an average of many papers. It's true that it doesn't break it down into subclades, but for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter, because it shows a paucity of any of it in Toscana, and therefore there is no strong evidence of a "particular" link of J1 with the Etruscans. However, I never expected Y dna C in Mesolithic Europe either. Ancient dna always seems to surprise.
 
As helpful as it is, this is one paper. The Eupedia map of the distribution of J1 is more informative because it shows an average of many papers. It's true that it doesn't break it down into subclades, but for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter, because it shows a paucity of any of it in Toscana, and therefore there is no strong evidence of a "particular" link of J1 with the Etruscans. However, I never expected Y dna C in Mesolithic Europe either. Ancient dna always seems to surprise.

The complete absence of J1 in the Raetic homeland on the Alps is even a better evidence.
 
Thanks Pax, these datas are perfect for some pathetic people who says that southern Italians are Arabs in Europe. lol
 
In Boattini et al 2013, which covers all of Italy, Table S1 shows frequencies by area and also divides J1 up into "J1e", the so called "Arabic" J1 marker, versus the rest. I think that's a bit of a misnomer, by the way. J1e has its overwhelming presence in Saudi Arabia and parts of the southern Levant because of founder effect. It doesn't mean there isn't J1e which was never in the Arabian peninsula. Therefore, J1e in other parts of the world did not necessarily come by way of the Arabian peninsula or even the southern Levant, much less the non J1e varieties. We'd need a lot more subclade resolution, in my opinion, to make these kinds of determinations.

This is the link to the paper. Then just click on Table S1.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

Area IV would include the original "Etruria". J1e is 1.6%, and the non J1e percentage is also 1.6%.

Table S2 is more detailed in that it lists the clade, the STR values, and the specific town of origin.

The J1 generally seems to come from Grosseto/Siena and Pistoia because there is only one J1 in La Spezia.

As good as I think the Boattini paper is, the sample numbers are small. For the purposes of this topic I think Maciamo's map shows that J1 doesn't look like it would be the Etruscan marker, but ancient dna always surprises, so who knows. If it was involved, I don't think it would have been of the J1e variety.
 
since when? and why? is ?Gedrosian or Altaic component dismissed in your DNA?
and who are my people?
Yes I am a racist,
since you are not? why you do not take these new comers to your 'Europe"?
Besides it was Europe's policies to create that tsunami,
and help to an equal distribution?
But your laws and treaties say that these people must return to the country of entrance,
so we allow people to travel through out Europe and find a job, but we do not allow these people, and we gather them in the countries of entrance,
thank you mr 'Non Racist',


problem is that a law needs to be in place in Europe........no papers, we send you back to where your boat came from. When we have your papers, then we proceed with your acceptance or decline for immigration. lost papers is not an excuse, neither is stolen papers etc ..............Europe is not united because it has nations, remove nations, and give power to brussels. If you do not like this, then leave the EU and make your own rules ........what are they going to do if you refuse to take in 100% illegal immigrants
Malta refuses 100% , they boat them to Italy and Greece
 
Thanks Pax, these datas are perfect for some pathetic people who says that southern Italians are Arabs in Europe. lol

The term arab is wrong as it represents a creation from after the Roman period, the correct term is Bedouin. Arabs came from southern arabia and pushed into the middle-east and north africa less than 2000 years ago. So ancient J1 are not arabs, but it is a semetic marker
 
problem is that a law needs to be in place in Europe........no papers, we send you back to where your boat came from. When we have your papers, then we proceed with your acceptance or decline for immigration. lost papers is not an excuse, neither is stolen papers etc ..............Europe is not united because it has nations, remove nations, and give power to brussels. If you do not like this, then leave the EU and make your own rules ........what are they going to do if you refuse to take in 100% illegal immigrants
Malta refuses 100% , they boat them to Italy and Greece

Did you miss the post where I stated that this discussion is off topic and to post it in the appropriate thread?

See post #41: any discussion of immigration into Europe should take place in the appropriate thread.
 
Did you miss the post where I stated that this discussion is off topic and to post it in the appropriate thread?

See post #41: any discussion of immigration into Europe should take place in the appropriate thread.

due to the fact I have to log in 2 to 3 times ( in a hurry as I might loose everything ) to write anything, then of course I missed it.................fix my issue and it will not happen again
 
due to the fact I have to log in 2 to 3 times ( in a hurry as I might loose everything ) to write anything, then of course I missed it.................fix my issue and it will not happen again

I merely called the fact to your attention.

If you have complaints about the way the program is timing you out, I'm afraid I can't help you as I'm not the owner of the forum.
 
The term arab is wrong as it represents a creation from after the Roman period, the correct term is Bedouin. Arabs came from southern arabia and pushed into the middle-east and north africa less than 2000 years ago. So ancient J1 are not arabs, but it is a semetic marker

Eupedia about J1:

The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. Like many other successful lineages from the Middle East, J1 is thought to have undergone a major population expansion during the Neolithic period.

Chiaroni et al. (2010) found that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 haplotypes was found in eastern Anatolia, near Lake Van in central Kurdistan. Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros mountains are the region where goats and sheep were first domesticated, some 11,000 years ago. Chiaroni et al. estimated that J1-P58 started expanding 9,000 to 10,000 years ago as pastoralists from the Fertile Crescent. Although they did not analyze the other branches, it is most likely that all surviving J1 lineages share the same origin as goat and sheep herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains.

The mountainous terrain of the Caucasus, Anatolia and modern Iran, which wasn't suitable for early cereal farming, was an ideal ground for goat and sheep herding and catalyzed the propagation of J1 pastoralists. Having colonised most of Anatolia, J1 herders would have settled the mountainous regions of Europe, including the southern Balkans, the Carpathians, central and southern Italy (Apennines, Sicily, Sardinia), southern France (especially Auvergne), and most of the Iberian peninsula. Hotspots of J1 in northern Spain (Cantabria, Asturias) appear to be essentially lineages descended from these Southwest Asian Neolithic herders.

Most J1 Europeans belong to the J1-Z1828 branch, which is also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus, but not in Arabic countries. The Z1842 subclade of Z1828 is the most common variety of J1 in Armenia and Georgia. There are also two other minor European branches: J1-Z2223, which has been found in Anatolia, Germany, Belgium, Ireland and Spain, andJ1-M365.1, identified only in England and Spain at the moment. Their very upstream position in the phylogenetic tree and their scarcity in the Middle East suggests that these were among the earliest J1 lineages to leave the Middle East, probably in the Early Neolithic, or possibly even as Late Paleolithic hunter-gatherers that wandered outside Anatolia and ended up in western Europe.

Within the Middle East, SNP analysis shows that the J1-L136 branch migrated south from eastern Anatolia and split in three directions: the Levant, the southern Zagros (and southern Mesopotamia ?), and the mountainous south-western corner of the Arabian peninsula (mostly in Yemen), bypassing the Arabian Desert. That latter group, consisting essentially of J1-P56 lineages, crossed the Red Sea to settle Sudan, Eritrea, Djibouti and northern Somalia. The climate would have been considerably less arid than today during the Neolithic period, allowing for a relatively easy transmigration across the Middle East with herds of goats.

Neolithic J1 goat herders were almost certainly not homogenous tribes consisting exclusively of J1 lineages, but in all likelihood a blend of J1 and T1 lineages. So much is evident from the presence of both J1 and T1 in north-east Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, but also in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus and the mountainous parts of southern Europe. Maternal lineages also correlate. Wherever J1 and T1 are found in high frequency, mtDNA haplogroups HV, N1 and U3are also present, as well as J, K and T to a lower extent (=>see Correlating the mtDNA haplogroups of the original Y-haplogroup J1 and T1 herders). It is unclear whether goats were domesticated by a tribe that already comprised both J1 and T1 lineages, or if the merger between the two groups happened during the Neolithic expansion, when two separate tribes would have bumped into each others, intermixed, and thereafter propagated together.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

Highest frequency of J1 is found among North East Caucasians.
 
Area IV would include the original "Etruria". J1e is 1.6%, and the non J1e percentage is also 1.6%.

Table S2 is more detailed in that it lists the clade, the STR values, and the specific town of origin.

The J1 generally seems to come from Grosseto/Siena and Pistoia because there is only one J1 in La Spezia.

As good as I think the Boattini paper is, the sample numbers are small. For the purposes of this topic I think Maciamo's map shows that J1 doesn't look like it would be the Etruscan marker, but ancient dna always surprises, so who knows. If it was involved, I don't think it would have been of the J1e variety.

Samples numbers are too small indeed. Grosseto/Siena has the same percentage of Cuneo in west Piedmont, while Pistoia (same percentage of Bologna, Emilia-Romagna) is just one sample. Ironically J1 is lower in the traditional Etruscan territories and stronger in the Appennines. It's clear that J1 can have many different origins, also Jewish in Europe but could be a minor Neolithic lineage as well. Interesting that the Kubachi and Dargins from Dagestan in the Northeast Caucasus have over 80% of J1 lineages. I think that considering the J1e an Arabic or a Proto-Semitic marker is stretching the truth.
 
Eupedia about J1:

The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. Like many other successful lineages from the Middle East, J1 is thought to have undergone a major population expansion during the Neolithic period.

Chiaroni et al. (2010) found that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 haplotypes was found in eastern Anatolia, near Lake Van in central Kurdistan. Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros mountains are the region where goats and sheep were first domesticated, some 11,000 years ago. Chiaroni et al. estimated that J1-P58 started expanding 9,000 to 10,000 years ago as pastoralists from the Fertile Crescent. Although they did not analyze the other branches, it is most likely that all surviving J1 lineages share the same origin as goat and sheep herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains.

The mountainous terrain of the Caucasus, Anatolia and modern Iran, which wasn't suitable for early cereal farming, was an ideal ground for goat and sheep herding and catalyzed the propagation of J1 pastoralists. Having colonised most of Anatolia, J1 herders would have settled the mountainous regions of Europe, including the southern Balkans, the Carpathians, central and southern Italy (Apennines, Sicily, Sardinia), southern France (especially Auvergne), and most of the Iberian peninsula. Hotspots of J1 in northern Spain (Cantabria, Asturias) appear to be essentially lineages descended from these Southwest Asian Neolithic herders.

Most J1 Europeans belong to the J1-Z1828 branch, which is also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus, but not in Arabic countries. The Z1842 subclade of Z1828 is the most common variety of J1 in Armenia and Georgia. There are also two other minor European branches: J1-Z2223, which has been found in Anatolia, Germany, Belgium, Ireland and Spain, andJ1-M365.1, identified only in England and Spain at the moment. Their very upstream position in the phylogenetic tree and their scarcity in the Middle East suggests that these were among the earliest J1 lineages to leave the Middle East, probably in the Early Neolithic, or possibly even as Late Paleolithic hunter-gatherers that wandered outside Anatolia and ended up in western Europe.

Within the Middle East, SNP analysis shows that the J1-L136 branch migrated south from eastern Anatolia and split in three directions: the Levant, the southern Zagros (and southern Mesopotamia ?), and the mountainous south-western corner of the Arabian peninsula (mostly in Yemen), bypassing the Arabian Desert. That latter group, consisting essentially of J1-P56 lineages, crossed the Red Sea to settle Sudan, Eritrea, Djibouti and northern Somalia. The climate would have been considerably less arid than today during the Neolithic period, allowing for a relatively easy transmigration across the Middle East with herds of goats.

Neolithic J1 goat herders were almost certainly not homogenous tribes consisting exclusively of J1 lineages, but in all likelihood a blend of J1 and T1 lineages. So much is evident from the presence of both J1 and T1 in north-east Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, but also in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus and the mountainous parts of southern Europe. Maternal lineages also correlate. Wherever J1 and T1 are found in high frequency, mtDNA haplogroups HV, N1 and U3are also present, as well as J, K and T to a lower extent (=>see Correlating the mtDNA haplogroups of the original Y-haplogroup J1 and T1 herders). It is unclear whether goats were domesticated by a tribe that already comprised both J1 and T1 lineages, or if the merger between the two groups happened during the Neolithic expansion, when two separate tribes would have bumped into each others, intermixed, and thereafter propagated together.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

Highest frequency of J1 is found among North East Caucasians.

so, you are saying J1 ydna travelled with T1 mtdna ( as per your link) ...............so, where did you find this union ?
 
If it can help with this discussion Malta has around 8% J1 which is probably the highest after Crete (in a Eurpean perspective). In Europe even thou it can even be considered like a small sample since the whole population of the Islands is considered like a medium sized town. Probably there are regions or Towns in southern Europe who might have a bigger percentage then this but calculated and absorbed on the General population of the country or region. However this is not the point.

We have 4 surnames (so far) in the local project which are J1. Two of them are unmistakably Jewish in origin who arrived in Malta from Spain in the 15th century and converted to Christianity anyway. Strangely enough one of them is the first documented baptism documented at the Cathedral in Mdina (that was the capital city then). There have also been many slaves brought in by the knights where piracy was at that time part of the economy. (North Africa is very high on J1 and not only E-81) Unlike what we might think some of these slaves were freed by time and some remained on the Island and even converted to Christianity and married to local women. The same is known to have happened the other way round (Maltese and other southern Europeans taken as slaves to North Africa in similar piracy and raids which must have left a similar minimal imprint of say E-V13, R1b and I2a in north Africa (or at least contributed towards it) I am not disputing the fact that J1 can also be a product of more ancient times and it has been round enough to be possible, but one cannot totally ignore much more recent inputs considering the well documented of more recent events.
 
If it can help with this discussion Malta has around 8% J1 which is probably the highest after Crete (in a Eurpean perspective). In Europe even thou it can even be considered like a small sample since the whole population of the Islands is considered like a medium sized town. Probably there are regions or Towns in southern Europe who might have a bigger percentage then this but calculated and absorbed on the General population of the country or region. However this is not the point.

We have 4 surnames (so far) in the local project which are J1. Two of them are unmistakably Jewish in origin who arrived in Malta from Spain in the 15th century and converted to Christianity anyway. Strangely enough one of them is the first documented baptism documented at the Cathedral in Mdina (that was the capital city then). There have also been many slaves brought in by the knights where piracy was at that time part of the economy. (North Africa is very high on J1 and not only E-81) Unlike what we might think some of these slaves were freed by time and some remained on the Island and even converted to Christianity and married to local women. The same is known to have happened the other way round (Maltese and other southern Europeans taken as slaves to North Africa in similar piracy and raids which must have left a similar minimal imprint of say E-V13, R1b and I2a in north Africa (or at least contributed towards it) I am not disputing the fact that J1 can also be a product of more ancient times and it has been round enough to be possible, but one cannot totally ignore much more recent inputs considering the well documented of more recent events.

Grazie, Maleth. Very interesting post. More likely a coincidence but the Tuscan area (Livorno, Pisa) from where the OP's ancestors are said to come from had the largest Jewish community in Tuscany, the so called "Nazione Ebrea" ("Hebrew nation") composed of Sephardi and Italkim. The other important communities were in Florence, Siena and Pitigliano (Grosseto) but not only. The Grand Duchy of Tuscany had laws generally tolerant towards the Jews but according to many sources there were many converts ("neofiti") though. J1 has clearly many different sources, most could be of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin indeed.
 

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