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Thread: J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    since when? and why? is ?Gedrosian or Altaic component dismissed in your DNA?
    and who are my people?
    Yes I am a racist,
    since you are not? why you do not take these new comers to your 'Europe"?
    Besides it was Europe's policies to create that tsunami,
    and help to an equal distribution?
    But your laws and treaties say that these people must return to the country of entrance,
    so we allow people to travel through out Europe and find a job, but we do not allow these people, and we gather them in the countries of entrance,
    thank you mr 'Non Racist',

    problem is that a law needs to be in place in Europe........no papers, we send you back to where your boat came from. When we have your papers, then we proceed with your acceptance or decline for immigration. lost papers is not an excuse, neither is stolen papers etc ..............Europe is not united because it has nations, remove nations, and give power to brussels. If you do not like this, then leave the EU and make your own rules ........what are they going to do if you refuse to take in 100% illegal immigrants
    Malta refuses 100% , they boat them to Italy and Greece
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Thanks Pax, these datas are perfect for some pathetic people who says that southern Italians are Arabs in Europe. lol
    The term arab is wrong as it represents a creation from after the Roman period, the correct term is Bedouin. Arabs came from southern arabia and pushed into the middle-east and north africa less than 2000 years ago. So ancient J1 are not arabs, but it is a semetic marker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    problem is that a law needs to be in place in Europe........no papers, we send you back to where your boat came from. When we have your papers, then we proceed with your acceptance or decline for immigration. lost papers is not an excuse, neither is stolen papers etc ..............Europe is not united because it has nations, remove nations, and give power to brussels. If you do not like this, then leave the EU and make your own rules ........what are they going to do if you refuse to take in 100% illegal immigrants
    Malta refuses 100% , they boat them to Italy and Greece
    Did you miss the post where I stated that this discussion is off topic and to post it in the appropriate thread?

    See post #41: any discussion of immigration into Europe should take place in the appropriate thread.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Did you miss the post where I stated that this discussion is off topic and to post it in the appropriate thread?

    See post #41: any discussion of immigration into Europe should take place in the appropriate thread.
    due to the fact I have to log in 2 to 3 times ( in a hurry as I might loose everything ) to write anything, then of course I missed it.................fix my issue and it will not happen again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    due to the fact I have to log in 2 to 3 times ( in a hurry as I might loose everything ) to write anything, then of course I missed it.................fix my issue and it will not happen again
    I merely called the fact to your attention.

    If you have complaints about the way the program is timing you out, I'm afraid I can't help you as I'm not the owner of the forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The term arab is wrong as it represents a creation from after the Roman period, the correct term is Bedouin. Arabs came from southern arabia and pushed into the middle-east and north africa less than 2000 years ago. So ancient J1 are not arabs, but it is a semetic marker
    Eupedia about J1:

    The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. Like many other successful lineages from the Middle East, J1 is thought to have undergone a major population expansion during the Neolithic period.

    Chiaroni et al. (2010) found that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 haplotypes was found in eastern Anatolia, near Lake Van in central Kurdistan. Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros mountains are the region where goats and sheep were first domesticated, some 11,000 years ago. Chiaroni et al. estimated that J1-P58 started expanding 9,000 to 10,000 years ago as pastoralists from the Fertile Crescent. Although they did not analyze the other branches, it is most likely that all surviving J1 lineages share the same origin as goat and sheep herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains.

    The mountainous terrain of the Caucasus, Anatolia and modern Iran, which wasn't suitable for early cereal farming, was an ideal ground for goat and sheep herding and catalyzed the propagation of J1 pastoralists. Having colonised most of Anatolia, J1 herders would have settled the mountainous regions of Europe, including the southern Balkans, the Carpathians, central and southern Italy (Apennines, Sicily, Sardinia), southern France (especially Auvergne), and most of the Iberian peninsula. Hotspots of J1 in northern Spain (Cantabria, Asturias) appear to be essentially lineages descended from these Southwest Asian Neolithic herders.

    Most J1 Europeans belong to the J1-Z1828 branch, which is also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus, but not in Arabic countries. The Z1842 subclade of Z1828 is the most common variety of J1 in Armenia and Georgia. There are also two other minor European branches: J1-Z2223, which has been found in Anatolia, Germany, Belgium, Ireland and Spain, andJ1-M365.1, identified only in England and Spain at the moment. Their very upstream position in the phylogenetic tree and their scarcity in the Middle East suggests that these were among the earliest J1 lineages to leave the Middle East, probably in the Early Neolithic, or possibly even as Late Paleolithic hunter-gatherers that wandered outside Anatolia and ended up in western Europe.

    Within the Middle East, SNP analysis shows that the J1-L136 branch migrated south from eastern Anatolia and split in three directions: the Levant, the southern Zagros (and southern Mesopotamia ?), and the mountainous south-western corner of the Arabian peninsula (mostly in Yemen), bypassing the Arabian Desert. That latter group, consisting essentially of J1-P56 lineages, crossed the Red Sea to settle Sudan, Eritrea, Djibouti and northern Somalia. The climate would have been considerably less arid than today during the Neolithic period, allowing for a relatively easy transmigration across the Middle East with herds of goats.

    Neolithic J1 goat herders were almost certainly not homogenous tribes consisting exclusively of J1 lineages, but in all likelihood a blend of J1 and T1 lineages. So much is evident from the presence of both J1 and T1 in north-east Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, but also in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus and the mountainous parts of southern Europe. Maternal lineages also correlate. Wherever J1 and T1 are found in high frequency, mtDNA haplogroups HV, N1 and U3are also present, as well as J, K and T to a lower extent (=>see Correlating the mtDNA haplogroups of the original Y-haplogroup J1 and T1 herders). It is unclear whether goats were domesticated by a tribe that already comprised both J1 and T1 lineages, or if the merger between the two groups happened during the Neolithic expansion, when two separate tribes would have bumped into each others, intermixed, and thereafter propagated together.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

    Highest frequency of J1 is found among North East Caucasians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Area IV would include the original "Etruria". J1e is 1.6%, and the non J1e percentage is also 1.6%.

    Table S2 is more detailed in that it lists the clade, the STR values, and the specific town of origin.

    The J1 generally seems to come from Grosseto/Siena and Pistoia because there is only one J1 in La Spezia.

    As good as I think the Boattini paper is, the sample numbers are small. For the purposes of this topic I think Maciamo's map shows that J1 doesn't look like it would be the Etruscan marker, but ancient dna always surprises, so who knows. If it was involved, I don't think it would have been of the J1e variety.
    Samples numbers are too small indeed. Grosseto/Siena has the same percentage of Cuneo in west Piedmont, while Pistoia (same percentage of Bologna, Emilia-Romagna) is just one sample. Ironically J1 is lower in the traditional Etruscan territories and stronger in the Appennines. It's clear that J1 can have many different origins, also Jewish in Europe but could be a minor Neolithic lineage as well. Interesting that the Kubachi and Dargins from Dagestan in the Northeast Caucasus have over 80% of J1 lineages. I think that considering the J1e an Arabic or a Proto-Semitic marker is stretching the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Eupedia about J1:

    The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. Like many other successful lineages from the Middle East, J1 is thought to have undergone a major population expansion during the Neolithic period.

    Chiaroni et al. (2010) found that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 haplotypes was found in eastern Anatolia, near Lake Van in central Kurdistan. Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros mountains are the region where goats and sheep were first domesticated, some 11,000 years ago. Chiaroni et al. estimated that J1-P58 started expanding 9,000 to 10,000 years ago as pastoralists from the Fertile Crescent. Although they did not analyze the other branches, it is most likely that all surviving J1 lineages share the same origin as goat and sheep herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains.

    The mountainous terrain of the Caucasus, Anatolia and modern Iran, which wasn't suitable for early cereal farming, was an ideal ground for goat and sheep herding and catalyzed the propagation of J1 pastoralists. Having colonised most of Anatolia, J1 herders would have settled the mountainous regions of Europe, including the southern Balkans, the Carpathians, central and southern Italy (Apennines, Sicily, Sardinia), southern France (especially Auvergne), and most of the Iberian peninsula. Hotspots of J1 in northern Spain (Cantabria, Asturias) appear to be essentially lineages descended from these Southwest Asian Neolithic herders.

    Most J1 Europeans belong to the J1-Z1828 branch, which is also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus, but not in Arabic countries. The Z1842 subclade of Z1828 is the most common variety of J1 in Armenia and Georgia. There are also two other minor European branches: J1-Z2223, which has been found in Anatolia, Germany, Belgium, Ireland and Spain, andJ1-M365.1, identified only in England and Spain at the moment. Their very upstream position in the phylogenetic tree and their scarcity in the Middle East suggests that these were among the earliest J1 lineages to leave the Middle East, probably in the Early Neolithic, or possibly even as Late Paleolithic hunter-gatherers that wandered outside Anatolia and ended up in western Europe.

    Within the Middle East, SNP analysis shows that the J1-L136 branch migrated south from eastern Anatolia and split in three directions: the Levant, the southern Zagros (and southern Mesopotamia ?), and the mountainous south-western corner of the Arabian peninsula (mostly in Yemen), bypassing the Arabian Desert. That latter group, consisting essentially of J1-P56 lineages, crossed the Red Sea to settle Sudan, Eritrea, Djibouti and northern Somalia. The climate would have been considerably less arid than today during the Neolithic period, allowing for a relatively easy transmigration across the Middle East with herds of goats.

    Neolithic J1 goat herders were almost certainly not homogenous tribes consisting exclusively of J1 lineages, but in all likelihood a blend of J1 and T1 lineages. So much is evident from the presence of both J1 and T1 in north-east Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, but also in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus and the mountainous parts of southern Europe. Maternal lineages also correlate. Wherever J1 and T1 are found in high frequency, mtDNA haplogroups HV, N1 and U3are also present, as well as J, K and T to a lower extent (=>see Correlating the mtDNA haplogroups of the original Y-haplogroup J1 and T1 herders). It is unclear whether goats were domesticated by a tribe that already comprised both J1 and T1 lineages, or if the merger between the two groups happened during the Neolithic expansion, when two separate tribes would have bumped into each others, intermixed, and thereafter propagated together.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

    Highest frequency of J1 is found among North East Caucasians.
    so, you are saying J1 ydna travelled with T1 mtdna ( as per your link) ...............so, where did you find this union ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If it can help with this discussion Malta has around 8% J1 which is probably the highest after Crete (in a Eurpean perspective). In Europe even thou it can even be considered like a small sample since the whole population of the Islands is considered like a medium sized town. Probably there are regions or Towns in southern Europe who might have a bigger percentage then this but calculated and absorbed on the General population of the country or region. However this is not the point.

    We have 4 surnames (so far) in the local project which are J1. Two of them are unmistakably Jewish in origin who arrived in Malta from Spain in the 15th century and converted to Christianity anyway. Strangely enough one of them is the first documented baptism documented at the Cathedral in Mdina (that was the capital city then). There have also been many slaves brought in by the knights where piracy was at that time part of the economy. (North Africa is very high on J1 and not only E-81) Unlike what we might think some of these slaves were freed by time and some remained on the Island and even converted to Christianity and married to local women. The same is known to have happened the other way round (Maltese and other southern Europeans taken as slaves to North Africa in similar piracy and raids which must have left a similar minimal imprint of say E-V13, R1b and I2a in north Africa (or at least contributed towards it) I am not disputing the fact that J1 can also be a product of more ancient times and it has been round enough to be possible, but one cannot totally ignore much more recent inputs considering the well documented of more recent events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    If it can help with this discussion Malta has around 8% J1 which is probably the highest after Crete (in a Eurpean perspective). In Europe even thou it can even be considered like a small sample since the whole population of the Islands is considered like a medium sized town. Probably there are regions or Towns in southern Europe who might have a bigger percentage then this but calculated and absorbed on the General population of the country or region. However this is not the point.

    We have 4 surnames (so far) in the local project which are J1. Two of them are unmistakably Jewish in origin who arrived in Malta from Spain in the 15th century and converted to Christianity anyway. Strangely enough one of them is the first documented baptism documented at the Cathedral in Mdina (that was the capital city then). There have also been many slaves brought in by the knights where piracy was at that time part of the economy. (North Africa is very high on J1 and not only E-81) Unlike what we might think some of these slaves were freed by time and some remained on the Island and even converted to Christianity and married to local women. The same is known to have happened the other way round (Maltese and other southern Europeans taken as slaves to North Africa in similar piracy and raids which must have left a similar minimal imprint of say E-V13, R1b and I2a in north Africa (or at least contributed towards it) I am not disputing the fact that J1 can also be a product of more ancient times and it has been round enough to be possible, but one cannot totally ignore much more recent inputs considering the well documented of more recent events.
    Grazie, Maleth. Very interesting post. More likely a coincidence but the Tuscan area (Livorno, Pisa) from where the OP's ancestors are said to come from had the largest Jewish community in Tuscany, the so called "Nazione Ebrea" ("Hebrew nation") composed of Sephardi and Italkim. The other important communities were in Florence, Siena and Pitigliano (Grosseto) but not only. The Grand Duchy of Tuscany had laws generally tolerant towards the Jews but according to many sources there were many converts ("neofiti") though. J1 has clearly many different sources, most could be of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin indeed.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Grazie, Maleth. Very interesting post. More likely a coincidence but the Tuscan area (Livorno, Pisa) from where the OP's ancestors are said to come from had the largest Jewish community in Tuscany, the so called "Nazione Ebrea" ("Hebrew nation") composed of Sephardi and Italkim. The other important communities were in Florence, Siena and Pitigliano (Grosseto) but not only. The Grand Duchy of Tuscany had laws generally tolerant towards the Jews but according to many sources there were many converts ("neofiti") though. J1 has clearly many different sources, most could be of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin indeed.
    I agree with all of that. The major problem is that while R1b and R1a have been heavily analyzed and many subclades discovered and tracked, that hasn't been done for J1. Different migrations would have had different J1 subclades. One of the reasons I like the Boattini et al study is that at least it separates out the J1e which is heavily present in both the Arabian peninsula and among Jews. It is not very frequent in the Caucasus. That said, even J1e could have been part of prior migrations because, as I said, the thinking, to the best of my recollection, is that J1e formed in the north, moved south with certain groups of herders, and through patriarchy and a huge founder effect, is the predominant J1 lineage in the south. We just don't know yet.

    All of that said, it's true that some of the J1e anywhere in Europe in currently non religiously or genetically Jewish people could be the result of conversions in the past. If it's within the last 2-300 years the Ashkenazi part, at least, would show up in the autosomes as measured at 23andme. The specifically Sephardi type might not, although through intermarriage with Ashkenazim, that portion of the ancestry might shown up, and might, given the area, alert the tester to Sephardi ancestry.

    In terms of the important "Jewish" areas in Italy, as I'm sure you know but others may not, there were also large communities, perhaps the largest, in Rome, where Jews were resident since the days of ancient Rome, and in Piemonte, where the landscape was dotted with synogogues, the largest and most impressive being in Torino. The Jewish community of Torino was numerous, very influential after emancipation, active in the movement for Italian independence, in industry, and in the arts, and highly assimilated. Then there is, of course, Venice, which is where the word "ghetto" was first used. Sicily once had a large Jewish population, and although most of them were expelled, there is a record that some remained and converted.

    The English language Wiki article is informative and pretty balanced in its representation of the see saws between tolerance and persecution in Italy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Italy

    Still, the numbers of Jews present in Italy since the Middle Ages at least are infinitesimal compared to the numbers in eastern Europe. While being not at all dispositive, I've never seen an Italian score anything more than noise level Ashkenazi at 23andme. On the other hand, if posts at 23andme are anything to go by, quite a number of eastern Europeans score between 1-2% Ashkenazi. Of course, any admixture into the populations of Italy from two thousand or more years ago would be impossible to trace through 23andme, and there is difficulty, as I said, with tracing the Sephardic portion at all times.

    For Italian readers, I quite like this second volume treatment of the Jews in Italy after the expulsions in Spain and Portugal up to more recent times:
    http://www.librimondadori.it/libri/s...#9788852048753

    For a cheaper price it's also available in e book format.

    The earlier periods are covered in the first volume.

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    One can't compare Malta and Italy, since Jews were never expelled from the former.

    The highest frequency of J1 in Italy is in the regions of Umbria, Marche and Abruzzo by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Grazie, Maleth. Very interesting post.
    Prego Pax Augusta.

    More likely a coincidence but the Tuscan area (Livorno, Pisa) from where the OP's ancestors are said to come from had the largest Jewish community in Tuscany, the so called "Nazione Ebrea" ("Hebrew nation") composed of Sephardi and Italkim. The other important communities were in Florence, Siena and Pitigliano (Grosseto) but not only. The Grand Duchy of Tuscany had laws generally tolerant towards the Jews but according to many sources there were many converts ("neofiti") though. J1 has clearly many different sources, most could be of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin indeed.
    Sounds like it could have been a similar structure since Malta was part of the kingdom of the two Scicilies by then, who in turn could have some similar political structures in place to the regions further north. In the old capital Mdina there is a street called Jewry street which signifies the importance of the Jewish community prior to the expulsions. As you have stated and also Angela it is also very probable that J1 can also be know to be of ancient and very ancient presence too from different sources, but so far its not very clear.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Malta

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    One can't compare Malta and Italy, since Jews were never expelled from the former.
    Malta and Sicily came under Aragonese rule and the 1492 Edict of Expulsion forced all Jews to leave the country. Because they made up such a large portion of the island's population the Spanish Crown forced them to pay compensation for the losses caused by their expulsion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Malta

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    One can't compare Malta and Italy, since Jews were never expelled from the former.

    The highest frequency of J1 in Italy is in the regions of Umbria, Marche and Abruzzo by the way.
    Thing is, Jews never numbered more than a couple of hundreds in Malta. Also, J2 and E3b are much more common among Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews than J1 is among them, with J2 being around 20% among both, and E3b at around 15% (including myself), with only about 10% of AJs belonging to J1.

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    It depends how many Jews stayed and how many Jews left Italy, Spain, Malta, Greece etc
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Malta and Sicily came under Aragonese rule and the 1492 Edict of Expulsion forced all Jews to leave the country. Because they made up such a large portion of the island's population the Spanish Crown forced them to pay compensation for the losses caused by their expulsion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Malta
    Yes true

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Thing is, Jews never numbered more than a couple of hundreds in Malta. Also, J2 and E3b are much more common among Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews than J1 is among them, with J2 being around 20% among both, and E3b at around 15% (including myself), with only about 10% of AJs belonging to J1.
    Thats a good point, some of the Jewish converts could also have been J2 and E3b so one can calculate when considering Sephardic ydna percentages how much of it was due to Jewish intermixing. The rest would have arrived from different sources, different ages and circumstances.

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    Jews in Malta were expelled in 1492, but the island was given to the Knights of Malta who imported many of Jewish slaves from Greece and Anatolia.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Thing is, Jews never numbered more than a couple of hundreds in Malta. Also, J2 and E3b are much more common among Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews than J1 is among them, with J2 being around 20% among both, and E3b at around 15% (including myself), with only about 10% of AJs belonging to J1.
    Frequencies of major haplogroups:

    Ashkenazi Jews:

    19% J1
    19% J2
    20.5% E

    Sephardi Jews:

    22% J1
    25% J2
    9% E

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Jews in Malta were expelled in 1492, but the island was given to the Knights of Malta who imported many of Jewish slaves from Greece and Anatolia.
    The Knights of Malta brought with them a large population of Rhodians (considering the population of the time) when they lost the island (Rhodes) to the ottomans. They were not slaves but Rhodians fleeing Ottoman rule who accompanied the Knights. Slaves were brought in through raids and piracy not much different to what happened example in Venice and Genoa. Raiding and piracy was big business for maritime powers. This happened all over Europe example Northern France (St Malo) preying on English cargo and others. The knights of Malta were well known for their galleons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with all of that. The major problem is that while R1b and R1a have been heavily analyzed and many subclades discovered and tracked, that hasn't been done for J1. Different migrations would have had different J1 subclades. One of the reasons I like the Boattini et al study is that at least it separates out the J1e which is heavily present in both the Arabian peninsula and among Jews. It is not very frequent in the Caucasus. That said, even J1e could have been part of prior migrations because, as I said, the thinking, to the best of my recollection, is that J1e formed in the north, moved south with certain groups of herders, and through patriarchy and a huge founder effect, is the predominant J1 lineage in the south. We just don't know yet.

    All of that said, it's true that some of the J1e anywhere in Europe in currently non religiously or genetically Jewish people could be the result of conversions in the past. If it's within the last 2-300 years the Ashkenazi part, at least, would show up in the autosomes as measured at 23andme. The specifically Sephardi type might not, although through intermarriage with Ashkenazim, that portion of the ancestry might shown up, and might, given the area, alert the tester to Sephardi ancestry.

    In terms of the important "Jewish" areas in Italy, as I'm sure you know but others may not, there were also large communities, perhaps the largest, in Rome, where Jews were resident since the days of ancient Rome, and in Piemonte, where the landscape was dotted with synogogues, the largest and most impressive being in Torino. The Jewish community of Torino was numerous, very influential after emancipation, active in the movement for Italian independence, in industry, and in the arts, and highly assimilated. Then there is, of course, Venice, which is where the word "ghetto" was first used. Sicily once had a large Jewish population, and although most of them were expelled, there is a record that some remained and converted.

    The English language Wiki article is informative and pretty balanced in its representation of the see saws between tolerance and persecution in Italy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Italy

    Still, the numbers of Jews present in Italy since the Middle Ages at least are infinitesimal compared to the numbers in eastern Europe. While being not at all dispositive, I've never seen an Italian score anything more than noise level Ashkenazi at 23andme. On the other hand, if posts at 23andme are anything to go by, quite a number of eastern Europeans score between 1-2% Ashkenazi. Of course, any admixture into the populations of Italy from two thousand or more years ago would be impossible to trace through 23andme, and there is difficulty, as I said, with tracing the Sephardic portion at all times.

    For Italian readers, I quite like this second volume treatment of the Jews in Italy after the expulsions in Spain and Portugal up to more recent times:
    http://www.librimondadori.it/libri/s...#9788852048753

    For a cheaper price it's also available in e book format.

    The earlier periods are covered in the first volume.
    the bulk of jews in Venice arrived from Valencia after they where thrown out by the Spanish ...they would be Sephardic

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...jw/Venice.html

    the word Calle means street ( strada in italian ) in Venetian

    After reading many books on the jews in Venice, my conclusion was that Venice wanted the state to be superior to any religious groups, this non acceptance of this line meant jews where moved on by venetians to other parts of the world...........Venice got their way. Only 2500 jews where present when Napoleon entered Venice in 1797 . this represents about 1% of the populace at the time.

    in 23andme , which seeks ashkenazi lines, has me ( the most of my family tested ) as 0.3%

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    Knights were from Rhodes and Cyprus and imported some of people from the two Greek islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Jews in Malta were expelled in 1492, but the island was given to the Knights of Malta who imported many of Jewish slaves from Greece and Anatolia.



    Frequencies of major haplogroups:

    Ashkenazi Jews:

    19% J1
    19% J2
    20.5% E

    Sephardi Jews:

    22% J1
    25% J2
    9% E

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    Guess I have been quite off, but my point stands, J2 and J1 are equal in number and more AJs belong to E, which is a euphemism for E3b in the case of AJs, and that's without talking about roughly 10% belonging to R1a, 9% to R1b, 5% to Q, 4% to I and 2% to T.

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    Which subclades of E1b1b are common among the Jews?M123, M35 and others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Knights were from Rhodes and Cyprus and imported some of people from the two Greek islands.
    To be more precise they were monks turning to soldiers and came from the noble houses around Europe to be able to serve. That was still all Catholic at the time. They started off as hospitaliers to care for the Christian pilgrims visiting the holyland and became militants when they established themselves in Rhodes. After the protestant reformation they were left with the Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French and British/German languages. The French languages (3) were the largest group.

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