J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)

Grazie, Maleth. Very interesting post. More likely a coincidence but the Tuscan area (Livorno, Pisa) from where the OP's ancestors are said to come from had the largest Jewish community in Tuscany, the so called "Nazione Ebrea" ("Hebrew nation") composed of Sephardi and Italkim. The other important communities were in Florence, Siena and Pitigliano (Grosseto) but not only. The Grand Duchy of Tuscany had laws generally tolerant towards the Jews but according to many sources there were many converts ("neofiti") though. J1 has clearly many different sources, most could be of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin indeed.

I agree with all of that. The major problem is that while R1b and R1a have been heavily analyzed and many subclades discovered and tracked, that hasn't been done for J1. Different migrations would have had different J1 subclades. One of the reasons I like the Boattini et al study is that at least it separates out the J1e which is heavily present in both the Arabian peninsula and among Jews. It is not very frequent in the Caucasus. That said, even J1e could have been part of prior migrations because, as I said, the thinking, to the best of my recollection, is that J1e formed in the north, moved south with certain groups of herders, and through patriarchy and a huge founder effect, is the predominant J1 lineage in the south. We just don't know yet.

All of that said, it's true that some of the J1e anywhere in Europe in currently non religiously or genetically Jewish people could be the result of conversions in the past. If it's within the last 2-300 years the Ashkenazi part, at least, would show up in the autosomes as measured at 23andme. The specifically Sephardi type might not, although through intermarriage with Ashkenazim, that portion of the ancestry might shown up, and might, given the area, alert the tester to Sephardi ancestry.

In terms of the important "Jewish" areas in Italy, as I'm sure you know but others may not, there were also large communities, perhaps the largest, in Rome, where Jews were resident since the days of ancient Rome, and in Piemonte, where the landscape was dotted with synogogues, the largest and most impressive being in Torino. The Jewish community of Torino was numerous, very influential after emancipation, active in the movement for Italian independence, in industry, and in the arts, and highly assimilated. Then there is, of course, Venice, which is where the word "ghetto" was first used. Sicily once had a large Jewish population, and although most of them were expelled, there is a record that some remained and converted.

The English language Wiki article is informative and pretty balanced in its representation of the see saws between tolerance and persecution in Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Italy

Still, the numbers of Jews present in Italy since the Middle Ages at least are infinitesimal compared to the numbers in eastern Europe. While being not at all dispositive, I've never seen an Italian score anything more than noise level Ashkenazi at 23andme. On the other hand, if posts at 23andme are anything to go by, quite a number of eastern Europeans score between 1-2% Ashkenazi. Of course, any admixture into the populations of Italy from two thousand or more years ago would be impossible to trace through 23andme, and there is difficulty, as I said, with tracing the Sephardic portion at all times.

For Italian readers, I quite like this second volume treatment of the Jews in Italy after the expulsions in Spain and Portugal up to more recent times:
http://www.librimondadori.it/libri/...olume-secondo-riccardo-calimani#9788852048753

For a cheaper price it's also available in e book format.

The earlier periods are covered in the first volume.
 
One can't compare Malta and Italy, since Jews were never expelled from the former.

The highest frequency of J1 in Italy is in the regions of Umbria, Marche and Abruzzo by the way.
 
Grazie, Maleth. Very interesting post.

Prego Pax Augusta.

More likely a coincidence but the Tuscan area (Livorno, Pisa) from where the OP's ancestors are said to come from had the largest Jewish community in Tuscany, the so called "Nazione Ebrea" ("Hebrew nation") composed of Sephardi and Italkim. The other important communities were in Florence, Siena and Pitigliano (Grosseto) but not only. The Grand Duchy of Tuscany had laws generally tolerant towards the Jews but according to many sources there were many converts ("neofiti") though. J1 has clearly many different sources, most could be of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin indeed.

Sounds like it could have been a similar structure since Malta was part of the kingdom of the two Scicilies by then, who in turn could have some similar political structures in place to the regions further north. In the old capital Mdina there is a street called Jewry street which signifies the importance of the Jewish community prior to the expulsions. As you have stated and also Angela it is also very probable that J1 can also be know to be of ancient and very ancient presence too from different sources, but so far its not very clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Malta
 
One can't compare Malta and Italy, since Jews were never expelled from the former.

The highest frequency of J1 in Italy is in the regions of Umbria, Marche and Abruzzo by the way.
Thing is, Jews never numbered more than a couple of hundreds in Malta. Also, J2 and E3b are much more common among Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews than J1 is among them, with J2 being around 20% among both, and E3b at around 15% (including myself), with only about 10% of AJs belonging to J1.
 
It depends how many Jews stayed and how many Jews left Italy, Spain, Malta, Greece etc
 
Thing is, Jews never numbered more than a couple of hundreds in Malta. Also, J2 and E3b are much more common among Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews than J1 is among them, with J2 being around 20% among both, and E3b at around 15% (including myself), with only about 10% of AJs belonging to J1.

Thats a good point, some of the Jewish converts could also have been J2 and E3b so one can calculate when considering Sephardic ydna percentages how much of it was due to Jewish intermixing. The rest would have arrived from different sources, different ages and circumstances.
 
Jews in Malta were expelled in 1492, but the island was given to the Knights of Malta who imported many of Jewish slaves from Greece and Anatolia.

Thing is, Jews never numbered more than a couple of hundreds in Malta. Also, J2 and E3b are much more common among Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews than J1 is among them, with J2 being around 20% among both, and E3b at around 15% (including myself), with only about 10% of AJs belonging to J1.

Frequencies of major haplogroups:

Ashkenazi Jews:

19% J1
19% J2
20.5% E

Sephardi Jews:

22% J1
25% J2
9% E

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
 
Jews in Malta were expelled in 1492, but the island was given to the Knights of Malta who imported many of Jewish slaves from Greece and Anatolia.

The Knights of Malta brought with them a large population of Rhodians (considering the population of the time) when they lost the island (Rhodes) to the ottomans. They were not slaves but Rhodians fleeing Ottoman rule who accompanied the Knights. Slaves were brought in through raids and piracy not much different to what happened example in Venice and Genoa. Raiding and piracy was big business for maritime powers. This happened all over Europe example Northern France (St Malo) preying on English cargo and others. The knights of Malta were well known for their galleons.
 
I agree with all of that. The major problem is that while R1b and R1a have been heavily analyzed and many subclades discovered and tracked, that hasn't been done for J1. Different migrations would have had different J1 subclades. One of the reasons I like the Boattini et al study is that at least it separates out the J1e which is heavily present in both the Arabian peninsula and among Jews. It is not very frequent in the Caucasus. That said, even J1e could have been part of prior migrations because, as I said, the thinking, to the best of my recollection, is that J1e formed in the north, moved south with certain groups of herders, and through patriarchy and a huge founder effect, is the predominant J1 lineage in the south. We just don't know yet.

All of that said, it's true that some of the J1e anywhere in Europe in currently non religiously or genetically Jewish people could be the result of conversions in the past. If it's within the last 2-300 years the Ashkenazi part, at least, would show up in the autosomes as measured at 23andme. The specifically Sephardi type might not, although through intermarriage with Ashkenazim, that portion of the ancestry might shown up, and might, given the area, alert the tester to Sephardi ancestry.

In terms of the important "Jewish" areas in Italy, as I'm sure you know but others may not, there were also large communities, perhaps the largest, in Rome, where Jews were resident since the days of ancient Rome, and in Piemonte, where the landscape was dotted with synogogues, the largest and most impressive being in Torino. The Jewish community of Torino was numerous, very influential after emancipation, active in the movement for Italian independence, in industry, and in the arts, and highly assimilated. Then there is, of course, Venice, which is where the word "ghetto" was first used. Sicily once had a large Jewish population, and although most of them were expelled, there is a record that some remained and converted.

The English language Wiki article is informative and pretty balanced in its representation of the see saws between tolerance and persecution in Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Italy

Still, the numbers of Jews present in Italy since the Middle Ages at least are infinitesimal compared to the numbers in eastern Europe. While being not at all dispositive, I've never seen an Italian score anything more than noise level Ashkenazi at 23andme. On the other hand, if posts at 23andme are anything to go by, quite a number of eastern Europeans score between 1-2% Ashkenazi. Of course, any admixture into the populations of Italy from two thousand or more years ago would be impossible to trace through 23andme, and there is difficulty, as I said, with tracing the Sephardic portion at all times.

For Italian readers, I quite like this second volume treatment of the Jews in Italy after the expulsions in Spain and Portugal up to more recent times:
http://www.librimondadori.it/libri/...olume-secondo-riccardo-calimani#9788852048753

For a cheaper price it's also available in e book format.

The earlier periods are covered in the first volume.

the bulk of jews in Venice arrived from Valencia after they where thrown out by the Spanish ...they would be Sephardic

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Venice.html

the word Calle means street ( strada in italian ) in Venetian

After reading many books on the jews in Venice, my conclusion was that Venice wanted the state to be superior to any religious groups, this non acceptance of this line meant jews where moved on by venetians to other parts of the world...........Venice got their way. Only 2500 jews where present when Napoleon entered Venice in 1797 . this represents about 1% of the populace at the time.

in 23andme , which seeks ashkenazi lines, has me ( the most of my family tested ) as 0.3%
 
Knights were from Rhodes and Cyprus and imported some of people from the two Greek islands.
 
Jews in Malta were expelled in 1492, but the island was given to the Knights of Malta who imported many of Jewish slaves from Greece and Anatolia.



Frequencies of major haplogroups:

Ashkenazi Jews:

19% J1
19% J2
20.5% E

Sephardi Jews:

22% J1
25% J2
9% E

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Guess I have been quite off, but my point stands, J2 and J1 are equal in number and more AJs belong to E, which is a euphemism for E3b in the case of AJs, and that's without talking about roughly 10% belonging to R1a, 9% to R1b, 5% to Q, 4% to I and 2% to T.
 
Which subclades of E1b1b are common among the Jews?M123, M35 and others?
 
Knights were from Rhodes and Cyprus and imported some of people from the two Greek islands.

To be more precise they were monks turning to soldiers and came from the noble houses around Europe to be able to serve. That was still all Catholic at the time. They started off as hospitaliers to care for the Christian pilgrims visiting the holyland and became militants when they established themselves in Rhodes. After the protestant reformation they were left with the Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French and British/German languages. The French languages (3) were the largest group.
 
Which subclades of E1b1b are common among the Jews?M123, M35 and others?

E-M34 would be the most dominant E subclade in Jewish populations. E1b1b and M35 are very generic terms and include a number of subclades. This could confuse a person who is not familiar with Ydna and complicates matters. When these are used they are not very specific and too generic for any good analysis.....and the terms keep changing too as they split further

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/E1b1b-tree.gif
 
Which subclades of E1b1b are common among the Jews?M123, M35 and others?
Yeah, but M35 is very general, I reckon most AJs who are M35 belong to the M34 subclade while others belong to the E-V13 one.
 
Yeah, but M35 is very general, I reckon most AJs who are M35 belong to the M34 subclade while others belong to the E-V13 one.

As per M35 in north-east Italy ......boattini states about 12% while NAtgeno states 10.5% , in this area the bulk of M35 , about 80%, are either E-L117 or E-L542

I am unsure how accurate boattini ( 2013 paper ) is, as the paper also stated 8.2% of L ydna in north-east italy
 
It means common mythological ideas and cultural contact.



Actually, I'm not saying that Etruscan is actually related with Anatolian, but that they had contact with speakers of Anatolian. And, you're overlooking the fact that by the time of classical Etruria, the Hittite Empire had long-since disappeared. How do you explain a contact if the Etruscans weren't originally in Anatolia? If the Etruscans were Urnfielders form north of the alps, where's your linguistic evidence for such a presence? Is there an Etruscan substrate in Germanic?

The obvious archeological, cultural, linguistic connection of Etruscans with ancient Ageans and the fact that Heredotus (despite some of his claims are false most of it is correct and the Agean is just side by to Greece), calls Etruscans, descend of Lydians(Indo Europeans from Agaen), kinda speaks more for an Anatolian origin of Etruscans imo. Thats simply too much to be just "coincidence".

By the way according to Herodotus Etruscans are related to Raetians but the Raetians themselves are also descend of Lydians. The Etruscans fled from the invading Gauls towards Italy.
 
The obvious archeological, cultural, linguistic connection of Etruscans with ancient Ageans and the fact that Heredotus (despite some of his claims are false most of it is correct and the Agean is just side by to Greece), calls Etruscans, descend of Lydians(Indo Europeans from Agaen), kinda speaks more for an Anatolian origin of Etruscans imo. Thats simply too much to be just "coincidence". By the way according to Herodotus Etruscans are related to Raetians but the Raetians themselves are also descend of Lydians. The Etruscans fled from the invading Gauls towards Italy.

There is nothing obvious, never found so far the smoking gun that show that Herodotus was right. Moreover there aren't archeological connections that link the Etruscans with ancient Ageans and actually the linguistic connection is due to one single inscription, the Lemnos stele. Etruscan language is not considered Indo-European so the connection with the Lydians is problematic as well, not to mention that there was no similar language to Etruscan in Anatolia. Furthermore all the genetic studies didn't prove a mass migration from Anatolia to Central Italy around 1000/800 BC neither the archeological nor the historical studies and Central Italy was already inhabited by a civilization called "Villanovan culture" branched from the Urnfield culture.

Well, there were certainly many contacts between Italy, Greece and Anatolia, one of the most important trade routes. Etruscans were known as experienced sailors and the Etruscan civilization passed through an Orientalizing period roughly at the same time of the archaic phase of ancient Greeks. The transformation of the "Villanovan culture" into the Etruscan civilization is most likely due also to these contacts but these contacts could date back to the Cardium Pottery culture as well because there is evidence that the Etruscan civilization developed in situ.


In terms of the important "Jewish" areas in Italy, as I'm sure you know but others may not, there were also large communities, perhaps the largest, in Rome, where Jews were resident since the days of ancient Rome, and in Piemonte, where the landscape was dotted with synogogues, the largest and most impressive being in Torino. The Jewish community of Torino was numerous, very influential after emancipation, active in the movement for Italian independence, in industry, and in the arts, and highly assimilated. Then there is, of course, Venice, which is where the word "ghetto" was first used. Sicily once had a large Jewish population, and although most of them were expelled, there is a record that some remained and converted.

The English language Wiki article is informative and pretty balanced in its representation of the see saws between tolerance and persecution in Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Italy

Still, the numbers of Jews present in Italy since the Middle Ages at least are infinitesimal compared to the numbers in eastern Europe. While being not at all dispositive, I've never seen an Italian score anything more than noise level Ashkenazi at 23andme. On the other hand, if posts at 23andme are anything to go by, quite a number of eastern Europeans score between 1-2% Ashkenazi. Of course, any admixture into the populations of Italy from two thousand or more years ago would be impossible to trace through 23andme, and there is difficulty, as I said, with tracing the Sephardic portion at all times.

For Italian readers, I quite like this second volume treatment of the Jews in Italy after the expulsions in Spain and Portugal up to more recent times:
http://www.librimondadori.it/libri/...olume-secondo-riccardo-calimani#9788852048753

For a cheaper price it's also available in e book format.

The earlier periods are covered in the first volume.

Very informative, Angela. Thanks.
 

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