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Thread: J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Which subclades of E1b1b are common among the Jews?M123, M35 and others?
    E-M34 would be the most dominant E subclade in Jewish populations. E1b1b and M35 are very generic terms and include a number of subclades. This could confuse a person who is not familiar with Ydna and complicates matters. When these are used they are not very specific and too generic for any good analysis.....and the terms keep changing too as they split further

    http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/E1b1b-tree.gif

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Which subclades of E1b1b are common among the Jews?M123, M35 and others?
    Yeah, but M35 is very general, I reckon most AJs who are M35 belong to the M34 subclade while others belong to the E-V13 one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Yeah, but M35 is very general, I reckon most AJs who are M35 belong to the M34 subclade while others belong to the E-V13 one.
    As per M35 in north-east Italy ......boattini states about 12% while NAtgeno states 10.5% , in this area the bulk of M35 , about 80%, are either E-L117 or E-L542

    I am unsure how accurate boattini ( 2013 paper ) is, as the paper also stated 8.2% of L ydna in north-east italy
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    It means common mythological ideas and cultural contact.



    Actually, I'm not saying that Etruscan is actually related with Anatolian, but that they had contact with speakers of Anatolian. And, you're overlooking the fact that by the time of classical Etruria, the Hittite Empire had long-since disappeared. How do you explain a contact if the Etruscans weren't originally in Anatolia? If the Etruscans were Urnfielders form north of the alps, where's your linguistic evidence for such a presence? Is there an Etruscan substrate in Germanic?
    The obvious archeological, cultural, linguistic connection of Etruscans with ancient Ageans and the fact that Heredotus (despite some of his claims are false most of it is correct and the Agean is just side by to Greece), calls Etruscans, descend of Lydians(Indo Europeans from Agaen), kinda speaks more for an Anatolian origin of Etruscans imo. Thats simply too much to be just "coincidence".

    By the way according to Herodotus Etruscans are related to Raetians but the Raetians themselves are also descend of Lydians. The Etruscans fled from the invading Gauls towards Italy.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The obvious archeological, cultural, linguistic connection of Etruscans with ancient Ageans and the fact that Heredotus (despite some of his claims are false most of it is correct and the Agean is just side by to Greece), calls Etruscans, descend of Lydians(Indo Europeans from Agaen), kinda speaks more for an Anatolian origin of Etruscans imo. Thats simply too much to be just "coincidence". By the way according to Herodotus Etruscans are related to Raetians but the Raetians themselves are also descend of Lydians. The Etruscans fled from the invading Gauls towards Italy.
    There is nothing obvious, never found so far the smoking gun that show that Herodotus was right. Moreover there aren't archeological connections that link the Etruscans with ancient Ageans and actually the linguistic connection is due to one single inscription, the Lemnos stele. Etruscan language is not considered Indo-European so the connection with the Lydians is problematic as well, not to mention that there was no similar language to Etruscan in Anatolia. Furthermore all the genetic studies didn't prove a mass migration from Anatolia to Central Italy around 1000/800 BC neither the archeological nor the historical studies and Central Italy was already inhabited by a civilization called "Villanovan culture" branched from the Urnfield culture.

    Well, there were certainly many contacts between Italy, Greece and Anatolia, one of the most important trade routes. Etruscans were known as experienced sailors and the Etruscan civilization passed through an Orientalizing period roughly at the same time of the archaic phase of ancient Greeks. The transformation of the "Villanovan culture" into the Etruscan civilization is most likely due also to these contacts but these contacts could date back to the Cardium Pottery culture as well because there is evidence that the Etruscan civilization developed in situ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In terms of the important "Jewish" areas in Italy, as I'm sure you know but others may not, there were also large communities, perhaps the largest, in Rome, where Jews were resident since the days of ancient Rome, and in Piemonte, where the landscape was dotted with synogogues, the largest and most impressive being in Torino. The Jewish community of Torino was numerous, very influential after emancipation, active in the movement for Italian independence, in industry, and in the arts, and highly assimilated. Then there is, of course, Venice, which is where the word "ghetto" was first used. Sicily once had a large Jewish population, and although most of them were expelled, there is a record that some remained and converted.

    The English language Wiki article is informative and pretty balanced in its representation of the see saws between tolerance and persecution in Italy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Italy

    Still, the numbers of Jews present in Italy since the Middle Ages at least are infinitesimal compared to the numbers in eastern Europe. While being not at all dispositive, I've never seen an Italian score anything more than noise level Ashkenazi at 23andme. On the other hand, if posts at 23andme are anything to go by, quite a number of eastern Europeans score between 1-2% Ashkenazi. Of course, any admixture into the populations of Italy from two thousand or more years ago would be impossible to trace through 23andme, and there is difficulty, as I said, with tracing the Sephardic portion at all times.

    For Italian readers, I quite like this second volume treatment of the Jews in Italy after the expulsions in Spain and Portugal up to more recent times:
    http://www.librimondadori.it/libri/s...#9788852048753

    For a cheaper price it's also available in e book format.

    The earlier periods are covered in the first volume.
    Very informative, Angela. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    There is nothing obvious, never found so far the smoking gun that show that Herodotus was right. Moreover there aren't archeological connections that link the Etruscans with ancient Ageans and actually the linguistic connection is due to one single inscription, the Lemnos stele. Etruscan language is not considered Indo-European so the connection with the Lydians is problematic as well, not to mention that there was no similar language to Etruscan in Anatolia. Furthermore all the genetic studies didn't prove a mass migration from Anatolia to Central Italy around 1000/800 BC neither the archeological nor the historical studies and Central Italy was already inhabited by a civilization called "Villanovan culture" branched from the Urnfield culture.

    Well, there were certainly many contacts between Italy, Greece and Anatolia, one of the most important trade routes. Etruscans were known as experienced sailors and the Etruscan civilization passed through an Orientalizing period roughly at the same time of the archaic phase of ancient Greeks. The transformation of the "Villanovan culture" into the Etruscan civilization is most likely due also to these contacts but these contacts could date back to the Cardium Pottery culture as well because there is evidence that the Etruscan civilization developed in situ.
    Herodotus could be right in the end, at least in terms of some elite migration from Lydia, but I've never understood why the other ancient authors who opined on the subject are never given as much credence.

    Thucydides groups them together with the Pelasgians and associates them with Lemnian pirates and with the pre-Greek population of Attica, and as for the Greek Historian Dionysius of Halicarnassus:

    "For this reason, therefore, I am persuaded that the Pelasgians are a different people from the Tyrrhenians. And I do not believe, either, that the Tyrrhenians were a colony of the Lydians; for they do not use the same language as the latter, nor can it be alleged that, though they no longer speak a similar tongue, they still retain some other indications of their mother country. For they neither worship the same gods as the Lydians nor make use of similar laws or institutions, but in these very respects they differ more from the Lydians than from the Pelasgians."


    This comment goes to some of the points you raised about the language of the Etruscans and what it can tell us about their origin. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that a language even remotely similar to that of the Etruscans was spoken in the area of Lydia or any area in Anatolia at the time they are supposed to be living there. The Lydians spoke a decidedly Indo-European language, which most linguists seem to feel is decidedly not the case for Etruscan. There's also the fact that we have evidence of Etruscan trading in the Aegean, so I don't know why the stele would necessarily mean the Etruscans came from the east.

    Is it possible Pallottino was on the right track and they were one of the Sea Peoples who brought down the Bronze Age Civiliations? That doesn't illuminate matters very much, however, because the "Sea Peoples" were probably a group of not necessarily related peoples. They could have been Italics, Cretans, other Greeks, people from the northern Aegean...Who knows? Maybe they were some late arriving steppe or Caucasus group. Aren't there some linguists who see a link to Indo-European languages? Then there's that reference to similarities to Uralic languages.

    If the linguists could agree on some of these things we might actually get somewhere.

    You know, I quite liked the idea that the Etruscans were fugitive Trojans. I've always sort of been on their side...never much of a fan of the cuckolded, vengeful Menelaus, or Agamemnon, murdering his own daughter, or even of Achilles, although I always liked the wily and clever Ulysses. To be honest though, ever since it started to seem that they might have been Indo-Europeans too I haven't felt quite the same way about ancient Troy. We all have our prejudices, although I try very hard not to let them interfere with intellectual analysis. :)

    Anyway, figuring out the linguistics is above my pay grade, and we've gotten sort of off topic from J1 in northern Italy and Tuscany. :)


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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Alan has an agenda here obviously.

    Etruscans did not differ from other Urnfield groups who spread from Germany to Italy.

    Both J1 and J1e arrived in Italy with late Neotlich goat herders from Southern Caucasus.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    There is nothing obvious, never found so far the smoking gun that show that Herodotus was right. Moreover there aren't archeological connections that link the Etruscans with ancient Ageans and actually the linguistic connection is due to one single inscription,
    There is, the user Taranis listed some and as far as I remember some Etruscan pottery is also extremely similar to that of Agaens. Of course it could all be wrong. But than, I still think a Anatolian origin is very plausible and even likely. It doesn't necessary needs to be Lydians. But maybe other tribes near by. Heredotus was right in most placings but he wasn't familiar with the relationship of the tribes he was talking about. For example he knew that Massagetaens and Scythians were related and originated from the same place but he was wrong in that Massagetaens were Scythians. In fact it was the Massageteans who forced the Scythians to the westward migration into Cimmeria.

    But thats all just my opinion of course.
    Last edited by Alan; 29-04-15 at 17:28.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There is, the user Taranis listed some and as far as I remember some Etruscan pottery is also extremely similar to that of Agaens. Of course it could all be wrong. But than, I still think a Anatolian origin is very plausible and even likely. It doesn't necessary needs to be Lydians. But maybe other tribes near by. Heredotus was right in most placings but he wasn't familiar with the relationship of the tribes he was talking about. For example he knew that Massagetaens and Scythians were related and originated from the same place but he was wrong in that Massagetaens were Scythians. In fact it was the Massageteans who forced the Scythians to the westward migration into Cimmeria.

    But thats all just my opinion of course.
    The main case for the Etruscan origin in the eastern Mediterranean, to me, is the attestation of the Lemnian language (written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet), from the island of Lemnos in the Aegean. Another issue is the Etruscan mythological figure of Tarc(h)un (whence the name "Tarquinia", both the city and the later Roman noble family), which appears as overly similar to the name of the Hittite thunder god, Tarhun. So in my opinion, how do you explain cultural contact between Etruscans and speakers of Anatolian languages, if not, at one point, they actually were somewhere in Anatolia, probably western Anatolia (e.g. in or near Lydia, as Herodotus claimed).

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    There's also the Troy theory; Etruscans as Trojans, leaving Troy to settle in Italy (from which Aeneas' story). Controversial, though interesting at least to think about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The main case for the Etruscan origin in the eastern Mediterranean, to me, is the attestation of the Lemnian language (written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet), from the island of Lemnos in the Aegean. Another issue is the Etruscan mythological figure of Tarc(h)un (whence the name "Tarquinia", both the city and the later Roman noble family), which appears as overly similar to the name of the Hittite thunder god, Tarhun. So in my opinion, how do you explain cultural contact between Etruscans and speakers of Anatolian languages, if not, at one point, they actually were somewhere in Anatolia, probably western Anatolia (e.g. in or near Lydia, as Herodotus claimed).
    And this contact must have been in Asia Minor, because Hittite Tarhun is derived from Hurrian Teshub (Thunder and Sky God). Teshub itself is equivalent to Greek Zeus nd maybe even Nordic Odin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The main case for the Etruscan origin in the eastern Mediterranean, to me, is the attestation of the Lemnian language (written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet), from the island of Lemnos in the Aegean. Another issue is the Etruscan mythological figure of Tarc(h)un (whence the name "Tarquinia", both the city and the later Roman noble family), which appears as overly similar to the name of the Hittite thunder god, Tarhun. So in my opinion, how do you explain cultural contact between Etruscans and speakers of Anatolian languages, if not, at one point, they actually were somewhere in Anatolia, probably western Anatolia (e.g. in or near Lydia, as Herodotus claimed).
    The Hittite thunder god, Tarhun, is the same of the Hurrian Teshub, the Hattian Taru, the Celtic Taranis, the Old Norse Thor, and they all belong to the Indo-European pantheon. How can be an Indo-European god very common among many different Indo-European populations the smoking gun that proves that Etruscans come from Anatolia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Hittite thunder god, Tarhun, is the same of the Hurrian Teshub, the Hattian Taru, the Celtic Taranis, the Old Norse Thor, and they all belong to the Indo-European pantheon. How can be an Indo-European god very common among many different Indo-European populations the smoking gun that proves that Etruscans come from Anatolia?
    I already mentioned it.

    But the issue here is that Hittite Tarhun and Hattian Taru are all derived from Hurrian Teshub. There are archeological evidences that Hattians/Hittites adopted the Hurrian Sky God. Also Hurrians were the first of these groups. Yet why Teshub is equivalent to Odin and Zeus thats the mystery.

    Also another reason why Etruscan Tarchun has to be from Asian Minor, beside it's attributes, is the name. If we would assume that it is from the common "Indo European" origin. Why on earth Tarchun like the Hittite Tarhun and Hurrian Teshub instead of something similar to Zeus or Thor? This in combination to Heredotus records, linguistic and archeological affinities. There are too many evidences that it can be explained simply by "coincidence".

    And now the most "stunning" part. Hurrians "are not Indo Europeans". One of the many reasons why I am sceptical of an "Steppic" origin of Proto Indo Europeans and instead tend to the area between the Zagros/Albruz and Taurus mountains.
    Last edited by Alan; 29-04-15 at 20:42.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The main case for the Etruscan origin in the eastern Mediterranean, to me, is the attestation of the Lemnian language (written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet), from the island of Lemnos in the Aegean. Another issue is the Etruscan mythological figure of Tarc(h)un (whence the name "Tarquinia", both the city and the later Roman noble family), which appears as overly similar to the name of the Hittite thunder god, Tarhun. So in my opinion, how do you explain cultural contact between Etruscans and speakers of Anatolian languages, if not, at one point, they actually were somewhere in Anatolia, probably western Anatolia (e.g. in or near Lydia, as Herodotus claimed).
    You don't find J.P. Mallory persuasive on this topic? Or perhaps he's changed his mind since he wrote "Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture"?
    https://books.google.com/books?id=tz...=onepage&q=J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans&f=false

    J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans.JPG

    J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans 2.JPG

    Given all the attested Etruscan trade in the east, including the Aegean, how can we be so sure that the inscription in the Lemnian language isn't by Etruscans moving east or having trading outposts in the east rather than Anatolians or northern Aegean people moving west?

    There's also The Great Sea, where David Abulafia mentions the intense rivalry in eastern and northeastern Greece and the general Aegean between the Etruscans and the Euboeans. Interestingly, he says that Lemnian, related to Etruscan, was spoken not only on Lemnos, but also on Imbros and in Chalcis (Euboea) as well. Does anyone know anything specifically about that? If it's true I suppose it could either mean an origin near there, or Etruscans, perhaps traders, settled there.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=9C...age&q=Etruscan trade and cultural links with Greece and Anatolia&f=false

    Also, why would the fact that it is written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet be dispositive of anything when we already know of the extensive Greek influence on the culture of the Etruscans? If we want to extend it into the genetic sphere, that might point to a movement from Greece, but how would it point to a movement from Lydia necessarily?
    https://books.google.com/books?id=8p...age&q=Etruscan trade and cultural links with Greece and Anatolia&f=false

    That leaves the mythological figure of Tarhun and his supposed similarity to a Hittite thunder god. Does anyone have a source that goes into some detail about this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I already mentioned it.

    But the issue here is that Hittite Tarhun and Hattian Taru are all derived from Hurrian Teshub. There are archeological evidences that Hattians/Hittites adopted the Hurrian Sky God. Also Hurrians were the first of these groups. Yet why is Teshub equivalent to Odin and Zeus thats the mystery.

    Also another reason why Etruscan Tarchun has to be from Asian Minor, beside it's attributes, is the name. If we would assume that it is a common "Indo European" goddes. Why on earth Tarchun like the Hittite Tarhun and Hurrian Teshub instead of something similar to Zeus or Thor? This in combination to Heredotus records, linguistic and archeological affinities. There are too many evidences that it can be explained simply by "coincidence".

    And now the most "stunning" part. Hurrians "are not Indo Europeans". One of the many reasons why I am sceptical of an "Steppic" origin of Proto Indo Europeans and instead tend to the area between the Zagros/Albruz and Taurus mountains.
    I don't think I'm following your reasoning here.

    Did the Celts come from Anatolia in the first millennium as well?

    Or the Celts got it from the steppe (whether or not it originally came from eastern Anatolia/the Caucasus), but based on the tale by Herodotus and the fact that a similar word for a similar god is attested in Anatolia seals the deal?

    I just don't see where all this certainty comes from, although it's certainly possible.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Hittite thunder god, Tarhun, is the same of the Hurrian Teshub, the Hattian Taru, the Celtic Taranis, the Old Norse Thor, and they all belong to the Indo-European pantheon. How can be an Indo-European god very common among many different Indo-European populations the smoking gun that proves that Etruscans come from Anatolia?
    I'm actually not ruling out that the name "Tarhun" is etymologically related with the Celtic Taranis and the Germanic Thor/Donar (the idea that this is a native Hittite name for originally Hurrian deity isn't a contradiction of that observation, either). But if we assume an Indo-European origin, then its clear that this is a native Anatolian rendering (as in, the Indo-European Anatolian language family): the Anatolian languages, famously, largely preserve the old Indo-European larngyeals (in particular *h2) while they vanish the other Indo-European branches. Therefore, outside of an Anatolian mediation, I don't see how the Etruscan "Tarc(h)un" could have ended up with that velar. It certainly wasn't from a Celtic or Germanic source. I might add that the name "Tarhun" is also found later on in Lycian (speakers of yet another Luwic language, but dating from the Hellenistic period) as "Traqqas" or "Traqqiz" (I'm quoting M. Hutter, 2003, "Aspects of Luwian religion" in Melchert, "The Luwians", in the issue).

    One issue about the Lydians I might want to you to consider is that, although no doubt speakers of a Luwic language (same with the Lycians), were a people of the post-Bronze Age collapse period. If I may make an analogy here, for example the Burgundians didn't originate in Burgundy, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The main case for the Etruscan origin in the eastern Mediterranean, to me, is the attestation of the Lemnian language (written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet), from the island of Lemnos in the Aegean. Another issue is the Etruscan mythological figure of Tarc(h)un (whence the name "Tarquinia", both the city and the later Roman noble family), which appears as overly similar to the name of the Hittite thunder god, Tarhun. So in my opinion, how do you explain cultural contact between Etruscans and speakers of Anatolian languages, if not, at one point, they actually were somewhere in Anatolia, probably western Anatolia (e.g. in or near Lydia, as Herodotus claimed).
    I thought someone stated etrucan alphabet was from the euboen island area with many finds and the lemnos island ( other side of the aegean ) was only one discovering

    maybe they where lydians who fought for the trojans but not actually trojans
    The Homeric name for the Lydians was "Meiones", cited among the allies of the Trojans during the Trojan War, and from this name "Maeonia" and "Maeonians" derive and while these Bronze Age terms have sometimes been used as alternatives for Lydia and the Lydians, nuances have also been brought between them.



    Herodotus states that the Lydians "were the first men whom we know who coined and used gold and silver currency".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atys_%2...e_Maeonians%29

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    I think one of the main reasons that I'm not totally persuaded by this supposed "Lydian"/Anatolian origin of the majority of the Etruscans has to do with studies like Lazardis et al which did not by the way use the Admixture program to get its "admixture" percentages to the best of my recollection. Here is the K=20.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...-Lazaridis.png
    Just click to enlarge.

    Does anyone see any significant difference between Greeks from Thessaly, Albanians and Tuscans in terms of the "Caucaso/Persian" component? Was there an attested first millennium BC massive migration from Anatolia to Greece and Albania as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post

    By the way according to Herodotus Etruscans are related to Raetians but the Raetians themselves are also descend of Lydians. The Etruscans fled from the invading Gauls towards Italy.
    where did you read this?

    with the recent finds in Val Venosta indicating that the raetians have been in the Alps from 3000BC, would indicate that they where in Anatolia at a time when the etruscans where not there.
    The raetian and etruscan similarity linguistically can only be associated in Italy and only due to trade. The trading centre discovered was near Verona, the place was called Cologna Veneta... an area where also the venetics engaged in this trade triangulation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think I'm following your reasoning here.

    Did the Celts come from Anatolia in the first millennium as well?

    Or the Celts got it from the steppe (whether or not it originally came from eastern Anatolia/the Caucasus), but based on the tale by Herodotus and the fact that a similar word for a similar god is attested in Anatolia seals the deal?

    I just don't see where all this certainty comes from, although it's certainly possible.
    My reasoning is, Etruscans most likely non Indo Europeans. Celts= Indo Europeans. Etruscan Tarchun is much more likely to be connected to Hittite Tarhun or Hattian Taru which are derived from Hurrian Teshub, than Indo European Taranis, Thor or Zeus. Since even the name shows less affinities compared to Anatolian version of Tarhun.

    So we have to decide what we want to believe. Are Etruscans Indo Europeans or not? If not isn't it much more likely that Tarchun derives from Anatolian Tarhun/Taru/Teshub?

    But since "non Indo Europeans" from Western Asia such as Hurrian, who came before any of the above listed groups in history, who had no known contact to the Steppes (at least not early contact we know of who could have brought the figure of Teshub there. Teshub was a pre Mitanni Hurrian deity just for the account, also I have hard time to believe that Mitanni were foreign to the region), had goddess which were equivalent to Indo European deities such as Thor, Zeus and Taranis. I have hard time to believe that the origin of All Indo Europeans (and PIE for that matter) can be explained with a Steppic origin.

    How on earth could three so different Indo European groups (Greeks, Germanics and Celts) end up with deities who are equivalent to Hurrian Sky God Teshub, if they didn't originated near by or at least crossed the region at some point of history.

    The only way I can see two groups of different linguistic background can end up with the same deities is if they influenced each other and therefore originated not too far from each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    There's also the Troy theory; Etruscans as Trojans, leaving Troy to settle in Italy (from which Aeneas' story). Controversial, though interesting at least to think about.
    Isn't the latest thinking that the Trojans of the period of the "Trojan War" were also Indo-European speakers?
    http://www.news.leiden.edu/news-2012...ans-speak.html

    https://books.google.com/books?id=bS...=onepage&q=The Trojans spoke an Indo-European language&f=false

    So, a people similar to the Hittites. The question still remains, if one hypothesizes that the "Etruscans" came from either Lydia or Troy why didn't they speak a recognizably Indo-European language? Shouldn't they have been speaking Lydian or Luwian or Hittite?

    This doesn't hang together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think one of the main reasons that I'm not totally persuaded by this supposed "Lydian"/Anatolian origin of the majority of the Etruscans has to do with studies like Lazardis et al which did not by the way use the Admixture program to get its "admixture" percentages to the best of my recollection. Here is the K=20.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...-Lazaridis.png
    Just click to enlarge.

    Does anyone see any significant difference between Greeks from Thessaly, Albanians and Tuscans in terms of the "Caucaso/Persian" component? Was there an attested first millennium BC massive migration from Anatolia to Greece and Albania as well?
    I had this question answered once. The thing here is we shouldn't expect modern Tuscans to be 100% descend of Etruscans. Maybe only 40% of modern Tuscans are. And we shouldn't take modern Anatolians as representative for ancients for that matter.

    But thatn the fact that Tuscans are almost equal to Greeks and Albanians who are closer to Anatolia and therefore should naturally have more affinities to it, is also dubious. Why should Tuscans be like Albanians if they are further away from Anatolia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You don't find J.P. Mallory persuasive on this topic? Or perhaps he's changed his mind since he wrote "Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture"?
    https://books.google.com/books?id=tz...=onepage&q=J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans&f=false

    J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans.JPG

    J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans 2.JPG

    Given all the attested Etruscan trade in the east, including the Aegean, how can we be so sure that the inscription in the Lemnian language isn't by Etruscans moving east or having trading outposts in the east rather than Anatolians or northern Aegean people moving west?

    There's also The Great Sea, where David Abulafia mentions the intense rivalry in eastern and northeastern Greece and the general Aegean between the Etruscans and the Euboeans. Interestingly, he says that Lemnian, related to Etruscan, was spoken not only on Lemnos, but also on Imbros and in Chalcis (Euboea) as well. Does anyone know anything specifically about that? If it's true I suppose it could either mean an origin near there, or Etruscans, perhaps traders, settled there.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=9C...age&q=Etruscan trade and cultural links with Greece and Anatolia&f=false

    Also, why would the fact that it is written in an archaic variant of the Greek alphabet be dispositive of anything when we already know of the extensive Greek influence on the culture of the Etruscans? If we want to extend it into the genetic sphere, that might point to a movement from Greece, but how would it point to a movement from Lydia necessarily?
    https://books.google.com/books?id=8p...age&q=Etruscan trade and cultural links with Greece and Anatolia&f=false

    That leaves the mythological figure of Tarhun and his supposed similarity to a Hittite thunder god. Does anyone have a source that goes into some detail about this?
    There was an error in my above post. The Lemnian language was spoken in Lemnos, Imbros and the Chalcidice peninsula, not Chalcis in Euboea. The Chalcidice peninsula is off Macedonia and not too far from Thrace.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...dard%29_en.svg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    where did you read this?

    with the recent finds in Val Venosta indicating that the raetians have been in the Alps from 3000BC, would indicate that they where in Anatolia at a time when the etruscans where not there.
    The raetian and etruscan similarity linguistically can only be associated in Italy and only due to trade. The trading centre discovered was near Verona, the place was called Cologna Veneta... an area where also the venetics engaged in this trade triangulation
    Sorry it wasn't Heredotus, Livy wrote that the Raetians are Etruscans who fled into the Alps from the Invading Celts.

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    As the 100th post, let me say thanks for the lively and interesting discussions here!

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