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Thread: J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for the only nugget of new data in your post which advances the argument even an iota, why does this Hunter-Gatherer's lack of "Near Easternness" mean R1b itself couldn't have originated in Siberia? Even if you find that unconvincing (and I have my doubts as well), if R1b arrived in the steppe from, say, some nexus area in Central/Asia the upper Near East even five hundred years before the date of this specific R1b sample, any autosomal "Near Eastern" component could have been long gone. You are aware that an autosomal component can be washed out in a couple of hundred years if there is no new admixture, aren't you? As with the Ashkenazim? Can you trace such ancestry in a European if there was only a small admixture event in 1200 AD?

    Besides, do you have a reasonable date for when the "Near Eastern" component would have been present in those areas? How does that correlate with TMRCA's of various branches of R1b?
    Exactly, just within ten generations a component can be washed out to as low as 0.05% if there is no up following admixture. If we take ~25 years per generation thats roughly 250 years. Exctly with the same reasoning we could argue that "because Assyrians lack North European ancestry despite high frequency of R1b, it couldn't be that this Haplogroup originated outside of the Near East". Thats the conclusion if we use the same logic. He also seems to not understand that "Near Eastern " should not be used in the same sentence as EHG, because these are two components of completely different timeframes. "Near Easterners" by 5000 BC most likely had already allot of ANE type ancestry themselves. Who says that ANE couldn't have originated somewhere between South_Central Asia and Iran? This region is at least closer to the supposed homeland of P*, N* and O*. Who says that WHG didn't existed in Western Asia already (since it is prominent in all Levantines, heck even Arabians)?

    Ask him why the Neolithic Iberian sample, which at the same time belongs to a lineage closer to the root, is typically EEF. By the way the Samara H&G did have some ~7% Proto Gedrosia type ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    That's an interesting way of avoiding the question I asked you. Unless you're ready to answer it without coming up with irrelevant processes, or even downright incorrect assumptions, I'll just conclude you haven't read the Haak et al. study (especially the parts addressing the EHG cluster and how it relates to ANE).

    Oh, and if you're looking for straw man arguments and misrepresentation, I suggest you have a good look at what Alan and Sile just wrote (does "Duwa logic" ring a bell?).
    How on earth did I not answer your question?

    Question:
    Semitic Duwa: how do you explain the fact that the Samaran HG had no Near Eastern ancestry and formed an "EHG" cluster with the Karelian HG already? I keep forgetting.
    Answer: Maybe it arose in Siberia. Or maybe it came from Central Asia, and if it contained any "Near Eastern" genetic material at that point, it might have washed out in as little as 250 years after the arrival of R1b on the steppe. That's what the following means. Are you reading other people's responses?

    Angela: why does this Hunter-Gatherer's lack of "Near Easternness" mean R1b itself couldn't have originated in Siberia? Even if you find that unconvincing (and I have my doubts as well), if R1b arrived in the steppe from, say, some nexus area in Central/Asia the upper Near East even five hundred years before the date of this specific R1b sample, any autosomal "Near Eastern" component could have been long gone. You are aware that an autosomal component can be washed out in a couple of hundred years if there is no new admixture, aren't you?
    You were also asked some questions. I'll repeat them, and I honestly want to know if you have an explanation, because, as I said, I don't think that the issue is at all settled. If R1b originated in the steppe around Samara, how do you explain the Neolithic R1b in Iberia, and how do you explain the trajectory of V88?

    Also, is it your position that "R" arose in Siberia and moved directly to the steppe? Do you not think that it's possible that because of the LGM it moved south toward Central Asia/Iran and re-expanded from there?

    Ed. Another cross post, I see. I can't keep up. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Answer: Maybe it arose in Siberia. Or maybe it came from Central Asia, and if it contained any "Near Eastern" genetic material at that point, it might have washed out in as little as 250 years after the arrival of R1b on the steppe. That's what the following means. Are you reading other people's responses?
    The thing is, EHG inscribes itself within a continuum along with WHG and ANE, some argue it can be modeled as WHG + ANE. At this point, this strongly suggests R1b is native to the Pontic-Caspian steppe and that Eastern Europe was a bifurcation hotspot for R1. Phylogenetically, that's the only model which makes sense considering the EHG cluster.
    Unless we find some sort of EHG population in the Zagros/Transcaucasus, I don't see this changing anytime soon.

    Either way, we are way OT, I came here to discuss J1, not R1b so that's exactly what I'm going to do:

    Recently, I've noticed that the Gulf seems to harbour quite a lot of J1 diversity. This could be due to sampling bias in the Gulf... However, if the diversity is "real" then the Gulf Oasis hypothesis could bridge some of the gaps regarding J1's origin (and J2's for that matter) since an Early Holocene expansion from a population reservoir in the now-inundated Gulf would provide a smooth model for J1's expansion.

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    I am finding it interesting how much discussion has ensued from J1-and-Northern-Italy-(Tuscany) with over 150 posts now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoFan View Post
    I am finding it interesting how much discussion has ensued from J1-and-Northern-Italy-(Tuscany) with over 150 posts now.
    If I were you, I'd test with FTDNA and order the J1-M267 SNP panel once your results are in (after joining the J1 FTDNA project), that would enable you to find which subclade you belong to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Exactly, just within ten generations a component can be washed out to as low as 0.05% if there is no up following admixture...
    IS that true of Y-DNA which is directly inherited via the paternal line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    If I were you, I'd test with FTDNA and order the J1-M267 SNP panel once your results are in (after joining the J1 FTDNA project), that would enable you to find which subclade you belong to.
    Thanks, that sounds like a good idea. I have been spending all my spare time following up with 23andMe info for a few months and I have a lot more to learn.

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    Etruscan origins study reveals migration from Armenian Highlands

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You have absolutely no way of knowing that given the current level of verifiable data either archaeological or genetic. We just don't know yet. Vallicanus' statement about J1 being all African and Syrian is even worse, because we know it is in fact not the case.

    No one who approaches these matters objectively with any kind of scientific or historical rigor is at all persuaded by these kinds of statements.
    Look this: peopleofar.com/2014/09/26/etruscan-origins-study-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/

    Source: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105920#pone-0105920-g001

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    Quote Originally Posted by cattel View Post
    http://peopleofar.com/2014/09/26/etruscan-origins-study-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/

    Source: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105920#pone-0105920-g001
    Very interesting, mtDNA study... relates to the Tuscan Y-DNA J1 (J-M267) question that began this whole thread!

    Etruscan origins study reveals migration from Armenian Highlands

    http://www.peopleofar.com/2014/09/26...ian-highlands/

    . . .

    Interesting because the slopes of the Caucasus currently shows the highest frequencies of (Y-DNA) J1 yet measured!

    (Balanovsky 2011)

    "The small isolated population of the Kubachi, in which haplogroup J1*-M267(xP58) became virtually fixed (99%, Table 2)"

    The current village of Kubachi (42°06'N 47°36'E) is about 100 km Northeast of Armenia.


    Maybe just my own bias, but this does seem to show another wisp of evidence for an Etruscan-Tuscan J1 (J-M267) connection?
    Last edited by GeoFan; 07-05-15 at 01:32. Reason: Balanovsky 2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by cattel View Post
    Look this: peopleofar.com/2014/09/26/etruscan-origins-study-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/

    Source: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105920#pone-0105920-g001
    There is an entire thread devoted to that paper...with 94 posts. See the following:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...263#post456263

    It is also discussed in this thread. It might help to read it from the beginning.

    I don't know what more can be said...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoFan View Post
    Very interesting, mtDNA study... relates to the Tuscan Y-DNA J1 (J-M267) question that began this whole thread!

    Etruscan origins study reveals migration from Armenian Highlands

    http://www.peopleofar.com/2014/09/26...ian-highlands/

    . . .

    Interesting because the slopes of the Caucasus currently shows the highest frequencies of (Y-DNA) J1 yet measured!

    (Balanovsky 2011)




    The current village of Kubachi (42°06'N 47°36'E) is about 100 km Northeast of Armenia.


    Maybe just my own bias, but this does seem to show another wisp of evidence for an Etruscan-Tuscan J1 (J-M267) connection?
    Once again, the blog refers to the Pardo et al paper. The Pardo et al papers have been discussed extensively on a dedicated thread and on this one as well. See my post above and see the following thread.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...263#post456263

    I don't know how many times one can say the same things.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Etruscans were indigenous population of modern Tuscany.
    http://www.nationalgeographic.it/pop...a_noi-1499113/
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoFan View Post
    Maybe just my own bias, but this does seem to show another wisp of evidence for an Etruscan-Tuscan J1 (J-M267) connection?
    We can't rule out but it's still not evidence of a connection, and J1 (J-M267) is spread also in other parts of south Europe and Italy.

    I suggest to read this as well

    Genetic evidence does not support an Etruscan origin in Anatolia.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23900768

    https://www.academia.edu/5017471/Gen...in_in_Anatolia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Once again, the blog refers to the Pardo et al paper. The Pardo et al papers have been discussed extensively on a dedicated thread and on this one as well. See my post above and see the following thread.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...263#post456263

    I don't know how many times one can say the same things.
    @ Angela: Thanks. Can you summarize? In essence, it this?

    . . . you can't use modern populations to analyze ancient gene flow. Nor can use use IBS segments. IMO,
    you need ancient DNA, and absent that, some really sophisticated IBD analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Etruscans were indigenous population of modern Tuscany.
    http://www.nationalgeographic.it/pop...a_noi-1499113/
    It's my belief that EVERYTHING comes from SOMETHING, there is no such thing as INDIGENOUS. (Sorry I don't read Italian so I could not read the whole article in that link. Google translate only gets me about 60% of it.)

    If the Etruscans themselves were a "melting pot" why could there not be a component of the J1 from the Caucasus mixed in their civilization that survives until now?

    I.E. SOME ETRUSCANS could be J1 originating from the Caucasus (say, 5000 years earlier) with this Y-DNA surviving until today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoFan View Post
    If the Etruscans themselves were a "melting pot" why could there not be a component of the J1 from the Caucasus mixed in their civilization that survives until now?

    I.E. SOME ETRUSCANS could be J1 originating from the Caucasus (say, 5000 years earlier) with this Y-DNA surviving until today?
    It could be arrived with the Tyrrhenians (if they really existed) or with the Neolithic farmers or who knows; I mean, it's very difficult to know.

    In any case, if your ancestors have always lived in Tuscany in the last 3000 years, you have for sure Etruscan ancestors, whether you are J1 or R1b U-152.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoFan View Post
    It's my belief that EVERYTHING comes from SOMETHING, there is no such thing as INDIGENOUS. (Sorry I don't read Italian so I could not read the whole article in that link. Google translate only gets me about 60% of it.)

    If the Etruscans themselves were a "melting pot" why could there not be a component of the J1 from the Caucasus mixed in their civilization that survives until now?

    I.E. SOME ETRUSCANS could be J1 originating from the Caucasus (say, 5000 years earlier) with this Y-DNA surviving until today?
    Every area is a "melting pot". Every region in Europe has Near Eastern ancestry through the early Neolithic farmers who brought agriculture to Europe, or through the migrations from the Steppe, and in most cases, from both.

    Obviously, the people who lived in "Etruria" in the first millennium B.C. would be a mix of at least the early Neolithic farmers (with some absorbed WHG or western hunter-gatherers) and some "Indo-European" groups of various names who came across or around the Alps and who were themselves a mixture of Near Eastern peoples, EHGs, and maybe some additional WHG. So, there would have been most probably a mixture of y lineages in Etruria, among which we would probably see some G2, maybe a few I2, maybe some E, and maybe, who knows, a few J1. Whether or not a group of more recently arrived people from the east were also part of the mix we don't yet know, and if they were we don't know whether they were anything other than a decided minority. We also don't know what yDna lineage they carried. Maybe it was J2. Maybe some J1 was mixed in, maybe it will be even more of a surprise...again, we don't know. Some J1 could also have arrived in Tuscany later through other migrations. There's been no fine scale resolution testing of the academic samples from Italy for J1 so we're in the dark here to some extent.

    Over and beyond all of that, there's no way of determining at the present time when and with whom your particularline of J1 arrived in Italy and then Tuscany. Even should it be determined that there was a migration from the east in the first millennium BC to central Italy and J1 was involved, your J1 might be from a different clade which had nothing to do with it.

    You may, however, have inherited some bit of ancient Etruscan autosomal dna over the centuries. Your yDna is only one of your many ancestors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoFan View Post
    @ Angela: Thanks. Can you summarize? In essence, it this?
    Summarizing, I understood that the similarity between modern Armenians and Tuscans doesn't prove the conjecture of Armenia as the old Etruscans origin, and that there would be consistent supports for other hypothesis. So, the study doesn't "reveal" nothing, contrary to what the article title assumes.
    But this is different from saying, of course, that it's an invalid hypothesis after all.

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    Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites
    Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites

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    Quote Originally Posted by franci-s91 View Post
    Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites
    Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites
    J1 is almost nonexistent in Tuscany, and Geofan is of Tuscan ancestry but his male ancestors were likely originally from Umbria and they subsequently moved to Tuscany. This has been demonstrated by a man from Umbria who has done a long geneaological research and has the same surname as Geofan and his own Y-DNA. In Umbria and Marche there are here and there quite a few J1.

    In any case, J1 predates Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites.

    Ancient samples with J1 have been found since the Paleolithic and Mesolitich.

    A sample of Karelia HG from Russia is J1.


    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...Ekg2RKodHEPTZ0

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    Points: 311,020, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by jhonandrson View Post
    I think it is impossible that J1 is Neolithic. Furthermore, even more outlandish mesolithic. At most punctual it must be Bronze Age. So perhaps minor Indo European genealogy? Generally Etruscan bodes well since Tuscany is known for it. What's more, if not that it may be a heredity of the different hired soldiers among the Roman armies (Sarmatian? Greek? Anatolian? Syrian? Caucasian?).
    I guess you didn't read the prior post: J1 is almost non-existent in Tuscany. Why would J1 be Indo-European?

    I think it's time to go back to the drawing board.

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