Semitic Duwa
בלי עין הרע
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 29
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Half-Jewish (paternal) & Half-British (maternal)
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J1-Z18271 (Kohen)
- mtDNA haplogroup
- J1c5
I see. My fault. I wasn't aware that you (and Forum Biodiversity) are the world wide authority on J1 and ISOGG are pikers in comparison. You certainly have a healthy sense of self esteem, Semitic Duwa.
Indeed, compared to ISOGG, I am an expert on J1. And the worst part is that I'm not even exaggerating, all you need to do in order to realise this is to have a good look at ISOGG's J1 tree and try to find 3 of the subclades I spoke of in the aforementioned thread... Good luck, because you're gonna need loads of it!
Perhaps you would care to point me to the post where I stated that J1 was a major Neolithic player? Isn't that a bit of a straw man argument? (I am also quite aware of what yDna has been found in a Neolithic context in Europe. We do manage in our humble way here to keep up with the relevant papers. There are threads for all of those papers.)
I think you're missing the point quite frankly, let me put it this way: I1, R1b, E-V13, C1a2 and T-M70 have far better odds of being Neolithic markers than either J1 or J2, neither of which were found in a Neolithic context.
There you go again. Certainly I've never thought or posted any such thing. Perhaps you could point me to a place here where it has been said that J1 was the driver of the spread of Neolithic farmers from the Near East?
I'm not singling you out in particular, my initial post merely highlighted the fact that many are eager to invoke Neolithic dispersals in order to explain J1's distribution in Europe.... Despite the fact that J1 hasn't even been found in ancient remains to date, let alone Neolithic remains.
Yet again, I fail to see what's so controversial about this, some J1 subclades might've been minor Neolithic markers at some point... Or not, it's better to keep an open mind in the absence of archeogenetic data.
Sorry, wasn't that what I've been saying not only in this thread but in others? The whole point has been that research on J1 has lagged and that as a result we don't have subclade resolution for the J1 in Italy or anywhere else in Europe.
Apparently not, especially considering all the talk about "Neolithic J1" in this thread. Also, if you'd taken the time to read the thread I directed you to you'd notice that we've made tremendous progress as far as research on J1 is of concern, I can confidently say that J1's phylogeny is far more complete than J2 and E-M35.1's phylogenies put together. While some regions (such as, say, East Africa and Soqotra) deserve serious scrutiny, Italy certainly isn't one of them (again, in the thread I directed you to I mention the Caprio cluster, so Italian J1 is anything but understudied).
Great. So precisely how does that conflict with what I've been saying? How do we know how much of that is in Italy, even if you're correct?
I'd say a sizeable chunk of Italian J1 is YSC234+, the Caprio cluster for instance belongs to a branch of YSC234 (FGC4745), the branch which led to my marker (ZS241) was found in a singleton sample in Italy, L829 (another YSC234>L858 subclade) is found in Italy and Malta and so on... So there's that.
That's not to say YSC234- folks don't exist in Italy, what I am saying though is that they probably came during the Bronze Age (much like J2), the Neolithic (even Late Neolithic) doesn't sound very plausible at this point.
Well, if you agree with it I must be right.
You'd be amazed
I must say that I have the strange feeling I get when someone is facing me and addressing me but is actually directing his comments to someone else over my shoulder. If you have a disagreement with the opinion of a particular poster, perhaps it would be best if you address that specific poster. Also, it's not helpful to exaggerate people's opinions to the point of absurdity...to wit, to say that some branches of J1 in Europe may be older than the Bronze Age or the Iron Age or the modern age for that matter, or that it is not all Semitic is not to say that J1 was a major Neolithic lineage, or the driver of the Neolithic or that some, perhaps a lot of the J1 might not turn out to be "Semitic".
As I said, I'm not singling you out in particular, I'm merely pointing out that all the talk about Neolithic dispersals is kind of unwarranted as far as J1 goes, especially considering the complete absence of J1 in ancient remains to date. This tendency to bring up the Neolithic in order to explain J1's distribution in Europe is quite mind-boggling, it's as if some people have been living in a cave recently and missed all of the Neolithic results we've uncovered.
J1 is about the same age as R1b and every bit as diverse, one should be careful not to make easy shortcuts such as "Non-Semitic J1 = Neolithic".
Yet again, everything we say is an educated guess at this point.
As for the forum "drama", I apologize if I associated you incorrectly with The Apricity, although I have to be honest and say I don't find forum biodiversity much better...more lip service to the papers, but very unbalanced and biased interpretations by many of the posters, in my opinion, which could hardly be otherwise given the stated opinions of the site owner and many of the posters. I understand it's been cleaned up lately (those crashes have proved very fortuitous, have they not?), but people have sent me hair raising screen shots of comments on there, particularly in the past. Have those leopards really changed their spots? I doubt it. However, I don't have enough exposure to it to indite all the posters, and I don't actually recall your posts there so none of this is personal.
Also, I was actually going by the fact that when I raised the issue that a member of The Apricity was "trawling" for 23andme data on Sicilians and southern Italians for use in his infamous threads about these people (totally misinterpreting them, in my opinon) and how they are really Middle Easterners in disguise and not Europeans, I thought it was you who came to his defense. I assumed it was because you were from The Apricity. Again, I apologize if that wasn't the case. I can't go back and check now because 23andme apparently agreed with me, and proceeded to pull the thread. I understand he still posts hundreds of pictures of people at discotheques in southern Italy at forum biodiversity however, yes? Very scientific indeed.
I think you're referring to a user called "tauromenion", either way I'm not that familiar with him in the first place. As far as ABF goes, it's far more intellectual-leaning than The Apricity, no doubt about it... You might not like Elias, but I for one am glad to count him as one of my friends (and obviously, we don't agree on everything, and that's just fine) and I can only praise him for weeding out most of the "trawls" on ABF despite the fact that I don't post that much back there anymore.