J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)

Very interesting, mtDNA study... relates to the Tuscan Y-DNA J1 (J-M267) question that began this whole thread!

Etruscan origins study reveals migration from Armenian Highlands

http://www.peopleofar.com/2014/09/2...dy-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/

. . .

Interesting because the slopes of the Caucasus currently shows the highest frequencies of (Y-DNA) J1 yet measured!

(Balanovsky 2011)




The current village of Kubachi (42°06'N 47°36'E) is about 100 km Northeast of Armenia.


Maybe just my own bias, but this does seem to show another wisp of evidence for an Etruscan-Tuscan J1 (J-M267) connection?

Once again, the blog refers to the Pardo et al paper. The Pardo et al papers have been discussed extensively on a dedicated thread and on this one as well. See my post above and see the following thread.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...263#post456263

I don't know how many times one can say the same things.
 
Maybe just my own bias, but this does seem to show another wisp of evidence for an Etruscan-Tuscan J1 (J-M267) connection?

We can't rule out but it's still not evidence of a connection, and J1 (J-M267) is spread also in other parts of south Europe and Italy.

I suggest to read this as well

Genetic evidence does not support an Etruscan origin in Anatolia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23900768

https://www.academia.edu/5017471/Genetic_Evidence_Does_Not_Support_an_Etruscan_Origin_in_Anatolia
 
Once again, the blog refers to the Pardo et al paper. The Pardo et al papers have been discussed extensively on a dedicated thread and on this one as well. See my post above and see the following thread.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...263#post456263

I don't know how many times one can say the same things.

@ Angela: Thanks. Can you summarize? In essence, it this?

. . . you can't use modern populations to analyze ancient gene flow. Nor can use use IBS segments. IMO,
you need ancient DNA, and absent that, some really sophisticated IBD analysis.
 

It's my belief that EVERYTHING comes from SOMETHING, there is no such thing as INDIGENOUS. (Sorry I don't read Italian so I could not read the whole article in that link. Google translate only gets me about 60% of it.)

If the Etruscans themselves were a "melting pot" why could there not be a component of the J1 from the Caucasus mixed in their civilization that survives until now?

I.E. SOME ETRUSCANS could be J1 originating from the Caucasus (say, 5000 years earlier) with this Y-DNA surviving until today?
 
If the Etruscans themselves were a "melting pot" why could there not be a component of the J1 from the Caucasus mixed in their civilization that survives until now?

I.E. SOME ETRUSCANS could be J1 originating from the Caucasus (say, 5000 years earlier) with this Y-DNA surviving until today?

It could be arrived with the Tyrrhenians (if they really existed) or with the Neolithic farmers or who knows; I mean, it's very difficult to know.

In any case, if your ancestors have always lived in Tuscany in the last 3000 years, you have for sure Etruscan ancestors, whether you are J1 or R1b U-152.
 
It's my belief that EVERYTHING comes from SOMETHING, there is no such thing as INDIGENOUS. (Sorry I don't read Italian so I could not read the whole article in that link. Google translate only gets me about 60% of it.)

If the Etruscans themselves were a "melting pot" why could there not be a component of the J1 from the Caucasus mixed in their civilization that survives until now?

I.E. SOME ETRUSCANS could be J1 originating from the Caucasus (say, 5000 years earlier) with this Y-DNA surviving until today?

Every area is a "melting pot". Every region in Europe has Near Eastern ancestry through the early Neolithic farmers who brought agriculture to Europe, or through the migrations from the Steppe, and in most cases, from both.

Obviously, the people who lived in "Etruria" in the first millennium B.C. would be a mix of at least the early Neolithic farmers (with some absorbed WHG or western hunter-gatherers) and some "Indo-European" groups of various names who came across or around the Alps and who were themselves a mixture of Near Eastern peoples, EHGs, and maybe some additional WHG. So, there would have been most probably a mixture of y lineages in Etruria, among which we would probably see some G2, maybe a few I2, maybe some E, and maybe, who knows, a few J1. Whether or not a group of more recently arrived people from the east were also part of the mix we don't yet know, and if they were we don't know whether they were anything other than a decided minority. We also don't know what yDna lineage they carried. Maybe it was J2. Maybe some J1 was mixed in, maybe it will be even more of a surprise...again, we don't know. Some J1 could also have arrived in Tuscany later through other migrations. There's been no fine scale resolution testing of the academic samples from Italy for J1 so we're in the dark here to some extent.

Over and beyond all of that, there's no way of determining at the present time when and with whom your particularline of J1 arrived in Italy and then Tuscany. Even should it be determined that there was a migration from the east in the first millennium BC to central Italy and J1 was involved, your J1 might be from a different clade which had nothing to do with it.

You may, however, have inherited some bit of ancient Etruscan autosomal dna over the centuries. Your yDna is only one of your many ancestors.
 
@ Angela: Thanks. Can you summarize? In essence, it this?
Summarizing, I understood that the similarity between modern Armenians and Tuscans doesn't prove the conjecture of Armenia as the old Etruscans origin, and that there would be consistent supports for other hypothesis. So, the study doesn't "reveal" nothing, contrary to what the article title assumes.
But this is different from saying, of course, that it's an invalid hypothesis after all.
 
Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites
Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites
 
Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites
Many experts deny the theory that Etruscan j1 could have, which is not realistic in my opinion, one should not fixate on the fact that J1 was worn only by Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites

J1 is almost nonexistent in Tuscany, and Geofan is of Tuscan ancestry but his male ancestors were likely originally from Umbria and they subsequently moved to Tuscany. This has been demonstrated by a man from Umbria who has done a long geneaological research and has the same surname as Geofan and his own Y-DNA. In Umbria and Marche there are here and there quite a few J1.

In any case, J1 predates Jews, Arabs, Phoenicians and other Semites.

Ancient samples with J1 have been found since the Paleolithic and Mesolitich.

A sample of Karelia HG from Russia is J1.


https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...31773183&z=4&mid=1lIgW0PYocrT-vEkg2RKodHEPTZ0
 
I think it is impossible that J1 is Neolithic. Furthermore, even more outlandish mesolithic. At most punctual it must be Bronze Age. So perhaps minor Indo European genealogy? Generally Etruscan bodes well since Tuscany is known for it. What's more, if not that it may be a heredity of the different hired soldiers among the Roman armies (Sarmatian? Greek? Anatolian? Syrian? Caucasian?).

I guess you didn't read the prior post: J1 is almost non-existent in Tuscany. Why would J1 be Indo-European?

I think it's time to go back to the drawing board.
 

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