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J1 and Northern Italy (Tuscany)
Hello Eupedia, this is my 1st post. I found this forum by searching Google for info on my:
Northern Italian (Tuscan) Paternal J1 haplogroup.
Any helpful hints?
My father, paternal grandfather, and great-grandfather all had Tuscan roots. (Any other TSI: Toscans in Italy, J1?)
My paternal grandparents both emigrated from Italy to California in the early 1900s. As a child, I was told many times that they were 100% Northern Italian (and 100% Toscano.)
23andMe test results show that my Y-DNA haplogroup is J1. Paternal Haplogroup J-M267 (J1) with a LOT more haplogroup data to dig into (View differences from ancestral Y as CSV) do I want to do that?
On discussions in 23andMe there are a handful of J1 Northern Italians/Tuscans participating.
According to official records (Vecchiano Registry Office, which is less than 10 km from my grandmother's birthplace near Migliarino, Pisa, Italy) my grandparents and great-grandparents were local to the area in Tuscany between Pisa, Lucca, and Viareggio in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That is confirmed by my oral family history and Italian passports (early 1900s) from my grandparents. Today, in Italy, their surnames are found mostly within a hundred km of this locality.
Checked my surname population density in current Italian phone books here:
www dot gens dot info (use the button: Cognomi or Cerca, fill in the box, then click Trova, to see results on map.)
. . . . . Tried to post image here but need 10 posts first...
It was interesting to learn that a nearby town in Tuscany, where my surname is often found (between Pisa, Lucca, and Florence) is about 7.5% J1 but the average in Tuscany is only about 2% or 3% J1 with a lot of variation from town to town.
Other sites have discussed that J1 could be more common with the (ancient) Etruscans in Tuscany.
There is much to learn... genomics and genetic genealogy are very rapidly developing, it seems the picture may become clearer in the future. Current sample sizes in any given location of Tuscany are fairly small. Being new to DNA anthropology and DNA genealogy, I am very curious.
Last edited by GeoFan; 16-04-15 at 19:09.
Welcome GeoFan to Eupedia. Don't forget to check Maciamo's write up about J1.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml
Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.
J1 isn't one of the most common hgs in Tuscany and neither in North-Central Italy. We don't know for sure, but it could be linked with the Etruscans (but I don't think that was the most common hg among the Etruscans), with Greeks (also in this case not the most common hg among Greeks) but also with foreigner merchants who settled in the maritime Republic of Pisa in the middle ages. J1 is also found in France, Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Slovenia, Portugal and Spain and they are all mostly J-M267. The highest are the Cretans in Europe. While J1-Z2223 is found in Germany, Belgium, Spain and Ireland according to Eupedia.Originally Posted by GeoFan
J1 m267 in Tuscany most likely Etruscan, but could have also come with merchants or warriors from the east.
On what do you base that opinion, Alan?
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
Yes indeed, Geofan, welcome.
In order to get a handle on the path your J1 ancestor took into Italy, it is helpful to get further subclade resolution. Did you test only at 23andme and is this the only information you were given?
I think it is unlikely that J1 is Neolithic. And even less likely mesolithic. At earliest it must be Bronze Age. So maybe minor Indo European lineage? Otherwise Etruscan makes sense because Tuscany is known for it. And if not that it might be a lineage of the various mercenaries among the Roman legions (Sarmatian? Greek? Anatolian? Syrian? Caucasian?).
Last edited by Alan; 15-04-15 at 14:20.
Unlikely? Why? The type of distribution (broader area of central-southern Europe, low percentages) would make think the opposite.
I think that there could be many different sources. Of course, the one does not exclude the other.
Please see this detailed testing of Italians,from whole Italy.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0065441.s013
It is a table (.xls) download it on your computer and look in it,are males from all over Italy.Are 884 samples of males,so is a lot to look on.
Here is the test:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441
And here is the table with the areas from where samples were collected:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441
I think you should make some autosomal testing,to know more about your genetics.
welcome
in regards to surnames...gens was good , best to use
http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...aliani/LOVISON
example of one of my ancestors
you can drill down further into each region , basically to town level
and also
http://www.ganino.com/cognomi_italiani_l
which you can translate to english on the site
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
Unlikely because no J found in neolithic Europe.
I'm assuming we're speaking about J1 M267 here? Well, it's certainly true we haven't found it or any Neolithic era J1 in Italy yet, but that isn't to say that we won't find any. It's certainly also possible that this clade in particular was a minor Indo-European lineage. I don't think many people expected to see a Bronze Age Indo-European from Hungary carrying J2a, either.
Thanks for all the good tips. The links that Sile posted were very interesting to me.
Here is the complete info provided on Y-DNA by 23andMe...
My 23andme Results Y-DNA 20150414 .txt
ANCESTRY TOOLS :: HAPLOGROUP TREE MUTATION MAPPER
The 23andMe Personal Genome Service® uses thousands of SNPs to describe hundreds of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome haplogroups. This experimental feature will tell you which SNPs we use to define a given haplogroup. The list begins with the mutation that defines that haplogroup's most recent branch on the mitochondrial or Y chromosome tree and works backward to the root. Because the Haplogroup Tree Mutation Mapper is an experimental feature in 23andMe Tools, it may not work as well or provide as much documentation as our supported features.
Paternal line (Y chromosome)
J1 defining mutations
variant :: call anc der
rs9341313 (M267) G T G
J defining mutations
rs13447352 (M304) C A C
I/J defining mutations
rs17250163 (P126) G C G
rs17250887 (P130) T A T
rs17306671 (M429) A T A
rs17306699 (P129) G A G
rs17315772 (P124) C A C
rs17315821 (P123) C T C
rs7892893 (P127) T C T
I/J/K defining mutations
rs9786139 (L15) A G
rs9786714 (L16) G A
F defining mutations
i4000053 (P14) I D I
rs16980391 (P149) A G A
rs16980396 (P148) T C T
rs16980459 (P139) G A
rs16980478 (P138) C T C
rs16980499 (P166) T C T
rs16980711 (P133) G A
rs16981340 (P146) C T
rs17174528 (P187) G T
rs17842387 (P145) A G A
rs2032652 (M89) T C T
rs2032665 (M213) C T C
rs4589047 (P163) T A T
rs4988808 (P142) G A
rs7067496 (M235) T G
rs9306845 (P141) A G A
rs9306848 (P160) C A C
rs9785905 (P159) A C A
rs9785908 (P136) G T G
rs9785913 (P158) T C T
rs9786095 (P157) C T C
rs9786502 (P135) T C T
rs9786636 (P140) C G C
rs9786707 (P151) C T C
rs9786877 (P134) C G
C/F defining mutations
rs4141886 (P143) A G A
C/T defining mutations
i4000227 (P9.1) C A
rs2032595 (M168) T C T
rs9341317 (M294) T C T
B/T defining mutations
i4000077 (M139) D I D
rs13447347 (M299) G T G
rs2032630 (M42) T A T
rs2032647 (M94) A C A
===
View differences from ancestral Y as CSV
# Differences between user's SNP calls and the ancestral state, for all SNPs on the 23andMe Y tree
# This does not include SNPs for which the ancestral state is not stored (i.e. those not on the tree)
# Format:
# chromosome,snp_id,chromosome_position,user_call,an cestral_call
Y,i4000095,2649694,T,G
Y,i4000275,6740172,G,T
Y,rs9306845,6941218,A,G
Y,rs17842387,8424089,A,G
Y,rs9306848,8474189,C,A
Y,rs17250887,8558969,T,A
Y,rs7892893,8590752,T,C
Y,rs9786707,8680661,C,T
Y,rs17306671,14031334,A,T
Y,rs17306699,14144593,G,A
Y,rs4141886,14197867,A,G
Y,rs16980478,14199284,C,T
Y,rs2032595,14813991,T,C
Y,i4000152,14819693,T,G
Y,i4000140,15478017,G,A
Y,rs2032665,15526751,C,T
Y,rs4589047,16242316,T,A
Y,rs16980499,17256018,T,C
Y,i4000287,17287673,T,G
Y,rs9786636,17311975,C,G
Y,i4000053,17398597,I,D
Y,rs9785913,17493513,T,C
Y,rs9785905,18097251,A,C
Y,rs16980391,18578476,A,G
Y,rs17315772,19038302,C,A
Y,i4000127,19092559,C,G
Y,rs17315821,19166861,C,T
Y,rs16980396,19349615,T,C
Y,rs17250163,21225770,G,C
Y,rs4481791,21409706,G,C
Y,rs9786502,21618856,T,C
Y,i4000077,21706386,D,I
Y,i4000065,21765281,T,A
Y,i4000086,21866675,A,G
Y,rs2032630,21866840,T,A
Y,rs2032651,21907538,D,I
Y,rs2032652,21917313,T,C
Y,rs2032647,21938158,A,C
Y,rs9341312,22741728,T,A
Y,rs9341313,22741818,G,T
Y,rs9341317,22744945,T,C
Y,rs13447347,22748506,G,T
Y,rs13447352,22749853,C,A
Y,rs9785908,23040647,G,T
Y,rs9786095,24359931,C,T
Y,rs2268591,24464597,G,C
As a beginner, I am very curious about family DNA and ancestral DNA, and am just beginning to understand some of this.
If anything interesting jumps out at anyone, I'd like to know more.
Is M267 the most important fact here?
Any online tools that will accept the 23andMe (V4) data and give me more info?
It's very frustrating that GEDmatch has been unable to accept any new registrations due to a technical glitch for many weeks now.
Last edited by GeoFan; 15-04-15 at 03:50. Reason: Is M267 the most important fact here?
download your 23andme raw data, then go to this site
http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html
and download the tool, then upload your raw 23andme data into the tool and it will find your positive and negative SNP's
then you can use chris Morley data to upload the results and it will give you an idea where you sit in the tree OR upload it instead , here
http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/isogg-y...le-chrome.html
if you use chrome
Thanks. I will try that. Thanks again to everyone for your additions above.
Last edited by GeoFan; 15-04-15 at 20:43.
All neolitich samples so far are from Germany, Sweden, Spain, Hungary and Russia, so we don't know what there was in the Balkans or Italy back then. Do not forget that before Haak et al, everyone believed that R1b and R1a arrived into Europe from the Levant, so...
Anyway Etruscans originated from the German Urnfield culture and are related to the Rhaetians of Austria and Southern Germany.
J1 in Italy is frequent on the Apennines but rare on the costal areas of Tuscany, Latium and Campania where major Etruscan cities were located.
That's correct.giuseppe rossi;455763]All neolitich samples so far are from Germany, Sweden, Spain, Hungary and Russia, so we don't know what there was in the Balkans or Italy back then. Do not forget that before Haak et al, everyone believed that R1b and R1a arrived into Europe from the Levant, so...
J1 in Italy is frequent on the Apennines but rare on the costal areas of Tuscany, Latium and Campania where major Etruscan cities were located.
This is a map of all of J1, not just the subclade under discussion. Still, the relative paucity of J1 in the central Etrurian area certainly mitigates against it being specifically associated with the Etruscans.
That's only one theory, which I'm sure you know. For what it's worth, given the J2 that was found in Bronze Age Hungary, and the autosomal analysis of the Urnfield culture showing some slightly higher West Asian component in them compared to other Bronze Age groups, I don't think it's impossible. However, we need an autosomal and ydna analysis of ancient Etruscan samples, and ancient dna samples from the Greeks as well, for that matter, because I don't think that the Haak et al paper elucidates all the migrations of the "Indo-Europeans" into Europe. Even then, I don't know if we will be absolutely sure, because we will in all probability never be able to get dna for the Villanovans, and the elite Etruscans who would provide the samples might not be representative of the mass of the population. (We do have some analysis of ancient Etruscan mtDna, 27 samples in fact, but the latest papers indicate that at the level of resolution that they did it's impossible to know when those lineages arrived in Italy. Unfortunately, from Barbujani's speech as recorded in a youtube video, my impression was that the samples can't be retested because the process actually destroys the bone. So, we will need new samples. I'm sure that there are other bones available in museums; I just hope that things have progressed enough that testing won't destroy the samples.)Anyway Etruscans originated from the German Urnfield culture and are related to the Rhaetians of Austria and Southern Germany.
My own personal opinion is that given the archaeological record, which shows no discontinuity at all, it's unlikely that there was a mass migration from Anatolia to Toscana in the 8th century BC. Other than that, I am keeping an open mind.
At any rate, if people want to get into a detailed discussion of Etruscan ethnicity, please go to the following:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ans#post435782
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Etruscan+mtDna
As to Urnfield in this context, see this thread where the last post by Moesan is of particular interest.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Urnfield
Etruscans were related ONLY to the Urnfield people of Austria and Southern Germany, aka the Rhaetians.
If Etruscans were Anatolian, then also the Rhaetians were.
You have absolutely no way of knowing that given the current level of verifiable data either archaeological or genetic. We just don't know yet. Vallicanus' statement about J1 being all African and Syrian is even worse, because we know it is in fact not the case.
No one who approaches these matters objectively with any kind of scientific or historical rigor is at all persuaded by these kinds of statements.
If you have any evidence for Etruscan (or a related language, i.e. Raetian - which is only attested from southern Tyrol) ever been used north of the Alps (Southern Germany), I'd really like to see your linguistic evidence. Where are your Etruscan place names in southern Germany? :)
Conversely, I'd like to bring up that there's another language related to Etruscan attested from the Agaean, Lemnian (from the island of Lemnos), which is located off the coast of... you've guessed it, Anatolia.
Lemnians were Etruscan colonists in Greece.
There have been found plenty of Italic and Etruscan inscriptions in the East Med area.
Read this article.
http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/02/...search-results
Rhaetian inscriptions have been found mostly in Tyrol and Western Austria.
Distributions of Tyrsenian languages.
It includes Southern Germany.
Why is it that there's common Etruscan and Hittite religious material, in particular the Etruscan Tarkhun (whence the Roman name "Tarquinius") and the Hittite "Tarhun"? Its more likely that the Etruscans of Etruria were colonists from Anatolia, than the other way round.
First, Dienekes talks about Osco-Umbrian, and I have to say, I find the idea that Eteocretan/Minoan is Osco-Umbrian quite hair-raising. No offense to him, but has the guy actually ever taken a look at the Linear B or Linear A scripts?!There have been found plenty of Italic and Etruscan inscriptions in the East Med area.
Read this article.
http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/02/...search-results
That map is from Wikipedia, its inaccurate about the distribution of Raetian (my idea is that they take the provincial boundaries of Roman Raetia and make that as language distribution - which works totally well, of course). There are no Raetian inscriptions from southern Germany, and I'm also unaware of any Raetian inscriptions from Vorarlberg, the Salzburger Land or even Upper Austria (Oberösterreich), which that map claims. If I'm wrong there, please pinpoint me to any inscriptions that I'm not aware of. Likewise, where are your Etruscan names (from Greek or Roman sources, maybe) north of the Alps?Rhaetian inscriptions have been found mostly in Tyrol and Western Austria.
Distributions of Tyrsenian languages.
It includes Southern Germany.
^^
First of all Hittites were not native of Anatolia, but recent incomers from the Russian steppe. The fact that the Hittite and Etruscan languages share 1 or 2 words means very little, otherwise I could also claim that Indo Europeans came from India.
Then the Etruscans were a mixture of native neolich farmers and Urnfielders from Central Europe. That's supported by archeology.
On the other hand the theory of the Anatolian origin of the Etruscans is neither supported by linguistics or archeology.
Actually I don't get your point: the distribution of Raetian language is based on the archeology. Otherwise since we have very little or no Slavic, Germanic and Celtic inscriptions in Europe, we must suppose that those people originated on Mars.
I'm not sure it could push things forwards but concerning Y-J1-M267, Wiki says it's the basic SNP of J1 nothing else - but it says too the most of the semitic speaking populations of Near-Eastern and Arabia, AND Africa had developped a high percentage of P58 upon this M267 "root" what is not the case concerning Europeans and Caucasus people of today. they are not sure of a birthpalce of J1-M267, helas.
what can that tell us? a few chances it came to Europe from semitic Phoenicians or we have to think the P58 is recent, I don't know (shame!)- it has more chances to be come here brought by people from Caucasus or Anatolia, what DOESN'T ELIMINATE A NEOLITHIC INTRODUCTION by the way. the distribution in Eastern Europe in Slavic lands doesn't tell us a lot of things; it's not too far from the distribution of tthers southeastern haplo's or aDNA among whoù we cannot tell the Neolithic part from the Metals part; the only but uncertain fact we have today is the absence of J-M267 among the ancient Neolithikers aDNA...
the low frequence in Galicia, rich for other southern haplos, even "semitic-like", doesn' t speak more for Phoenicians so not too much more for Maures - but Etruscans in Portugal? I don't know, so the Neolithic hypothesis cannot be ruled out completely. more than a wave has been suggested by surveys. We need surveys about subclades, even upon STRs (I'm not too found of but?)
OK, some of your points are logical, but not all of them - Archeology, you say? it doesn't give us always what ethny is concerned, some material cultural traits have been shared by different ehtnies (it seems it is the case for late Urnfields) - we need linguistic inscriptions, or reports about place-names: Celtic, Germanic or Slavic place-names and anthroponyms are known. And the thesis about linguistic links between etruscan and some western anatolian (pre-I-E) or egean toponyms is not completley dispelled for I kow
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