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Thread: The Italian Language

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    It is obvious you are avoiding the main question.

    We agree Italian was created by Dante in Florence, but you avoid an explanation on why after nearly 500 years since it's creation only 2% of the italian peninsula spoke Italian. Answer this question and you can answer the other questions you have asked.
    Actually we don't know the exact number of people in Italy that spoke Tuscan/Italian around 1861.

    2% (or better 2,5%) is just an hypothesis of Italian linguist Tullio De Mauro (Tullio De Mauro, Storia linguistica dell’Italia unita, Roma - Bari, Laterza, 2 voll., 1976 - 1a ed. 1963 - p. 43) but according to another Italian linguist Arrigo Castellani (Arrigo Castellani, Quanti erano gl’italofoni nel 1861?, «Studi linguistici italiani» 8, 1982, pp. 3-26.) they were the 10%, considering that in 1861 in Italy 75% of the population was illiterate according to many studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    He speaks Italian with a very slight Gallo-Italic intonation but not so strong. I guess some kind of Emilian but it sounds to me different from the Bolognese. As the Spezzino dialect sounds to me very different from the Genoese. I like very much Lunigiana but I think that there is a bit too much propaganda, especially on the web, about the so called liguri apuani. Actually we still know little about the ancient Ligurians (Beyond Liguria ancient Ligurians settled in most of Northern Tuscany, in Piedmont, Lombardy and Emilia as well).
    I wasn't aware that anyone in the internet world paid much attention to it...well, apart from me, that is... It's a bit of a rural backwater...and not much of a tourist mecca......although the English are beginning to discover it as a destination for vacation homes as prices are still pretty low.

    I'm not very much into any of this kind of thing...neither about the Liguri Apuani nor about the Celtici over the Appennini where my father's family originated.. I'm not saying they're not part of our heritage...it's just that the Romans are too, and I'm sure some Etruschi must have crossed the Magra as well, even if there were no settlements, not to mention the Neolithic base in the whole of the peninsula.

    I only posted him because he comes from a village very close to my mother's and very close to where I was born, and he speaks the way the old country people of that area speak...the area 'dialetto', not refined, and not trying to ape any particular 'posh' accent. I guess I'm saying that he sounds typical of older common people native to that particular area.

    Someone once told me it sounded like emiliano un po' ligurizzato, with the Emilian part being close to Pramzàn and the Ligurian part being Spezzino, which itself is, as you say, quite different from what is spoken in Genova. On the other hand, strangers I meet when I'm traveling in Italy tell me I sound a bit Tuscan. I don't know why that would be unless it's in the local intonation and accent. I just wanted another opinion, and to see if you could hear any trace of toscano in it after a couple of hundred years of being administered by them. I don't hear it myself, at least not in the accent. I think you have to go to Massa to start really hearing it.

    Thanks for the response.


    Ed. Mystery solved...it must be because my university professor in Italian here, and all of them for my year at university in Italy were Tuscans or long established there. They must have affected my speech a bit...It's all good, as long as I don't have that aspiration all over the place.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wasn't aware that anyone in the internet world paid much attention to it...well, apart from me, that is... It's a bit of a rural backwater...and not much of a tourist mecca......although the English are beginning to discover it as a destination for vacation homes as prices are still pretty low.

    I'm not very much into any of this kind of thing...neither about the Liguri Apuani nor about the Celtici over the Appennini where my father's family originated.. I'm not saying they're not part of our heritage...it's just that the Romans are too, and I'm sure some Etruschi must have crossed the Magra as well, even if there were no settlements, not to mention the Neolithic base in the whole of the peninsula.
    Especially in the Italian websites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I only posted him because he comes from a village very close to my mother's and very close to where I was born, and he speaks the way the old country people of that area speak...the area 'dialetto', not refined, and not trying to ape any particular 'posh' accent. I guess I'm saying that he sounds typical of older common people native to that particular area.

    Someone once told me it sounded like emiliano un po' ligurizzato, with the Emilian part being close to Pramzàn and the Ligurian part being Spezzino, which itself is, as you say, quite different from what is spoken in Genova. On the other hand, strangers I meet when I'm traveling in Italy tell me I sound a bit Tuscan. I don't know why that would be unless it's in the local intonation and accent. I just wanted another opinion, and to see if you could hear any trace of toscano in it after a couple of hundred years of being administered by them. I don't hear it myself, at least not in the accent. I think you have to go to Massa to start really hearing it.

    Thanks for the response.
    Yes, probably more pramzàn than bulgnais. I don't find in him neither a Tuscan nor a Ligurian infuence but I need other videos with longer speeches of him. On a general level I think it depends by the specific area of Lunigiana. I have heard people from Lunigiana with a Tuscan influence, others with a Ligurian influence. As I heard in some people from Sarzana (so Spezzino dialect) a Tuscan influence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ed. Mystery solved...it must be because my university professor in Italian here, and all of them for my year at university in Italy were Tuscans or long established there. They must have affected my speech a bit...It's all good, as long as I don't have that aspiration all over the place.
    If you mean the Tuscan aspiration is basically concentrated in the northern-eastern Tuscan (Florentine, Pistoiese, Pratese....) and to a lesser extent in the Sienese, but not so strong in the western Tuscan (Lucchese, Pisano-Livornese...).

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    Pax Augusta;455204]Especially in the Italian websites.
    Well, I sure don't read about it at Marco Travaglio's blog, or university ones, or culture sites. I rarely meet anyone in Italy who knows anything about it, other than that it's the hinterland of LaSpezia. Trust me, the food and scenery and outdoor pursuits are great, but compared to Parma or Genova or almost anywhere in Toscana? I mean, I love it, because it's mine, and I think the people are the finest in the world, but it was never a hub of art or architecture or culture on a par with those other places...it was too poor for that.

    Yes, probably more pramzàn than bulgnais. I don't find in him neither a Tuscan nor a Ligurian infuence but I need other videos with longer speeches of him. On a general level I think it depends by the specific area of Lunigiana. I have heard people from Lunigiana with a Tuscan influence, others with a Ligurian influence. As I heard in some people from Sarzana (so Spezzino dialect) a Tuscan influence
    Yes, even the map I posted upthread shows an influence from all three regions. The region where you can hear the Tuscan influence clearly is in Fivizzano and surrounding villages, I think. They maintain lots more cultural ties with Toscana as well, whereas where I was born we have more to do with La Spezia, and, in the areas near the passes over the mountains, with Parma. Further south you start to get more Ligurian influence, although, as you said, Spezzino is not like the Ligurian of Genova. I think even that has Emilian influences.

    I never thought of Sarzana as having a Tuscan influence, but there's been a lot of movement of people from coastal Toscana and from the mountainous hinterland of Lucca into the area around La Spezia. Sarzana is almost a "bedroom" community of La Spezia now. Heck, so is my own village, which is about fifteen kilometers north of Sarzana. If I have a slight Tuscan accent, it's probably a western coastal one from that emigration's influence. Then, as I said, I studied in Pisa for a while. That's undoubtedly part of why I like the way that Ruffini sounds.

    This is the way that the people from Pontremoli sound (up valley):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Jl0fKdtxo

    This is mid-valley. He starts speaking about 1:35.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWariDiZX6Y

    This is Bugelli again, although he's singing. He may not be the best example, as he's sort of a fake "contadino", if you know what I mean, like a lot of "folk" singers in areas where nobody really speaks in dialect anymore and wouldn't dream of going around singing these songs.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfSW48RsV8

    Vezzano Ligure, which is my maternal grandfather's ancestral town. This one is in actual dialect of course, for comic effect.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZKAs29Fpzo

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    This women speaks exactly the same as my mother

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnuIZB8GPww
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, I sure don't read about it at Marco Travaglio's blog, or university ones, or culture sites. I rarely meet anyone in Italy who knows anything about it, other than that it's the hinterland of LaSpezia. Trust me, the food and scenery and outdoor pursuits are great, but compared to Parma or Genova or almost anywhere in Toscana? I mean, I love it, because it's mine, and I think the people are the finest in the world, but it was never a hub of art or architecture or culture on a par with those other places...it was too poor for that.
    Of course, neither Travaglio nor academic studies but mostly amateur bloggers since the 90s during the spread of neolocalism, neo-irredentism and exasperated sub-regionalisms. Ma la mia non vuole essere una critica all'identità lunigiana, che è assolutamente legittima e ha tutti i caratteri dell'originalità, ma più alle forzature storiche come tentativo di legittimazione di questi localismi esasperati e che non riguardano solamente la Lunigiana, ovviamente.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, even the map I posted upthread shows an influence from all three regions. The region where you can hear the Tuscan influence clearly is in Fivizzano and surrounding villages, I think. They maintain lots more cultural ties with Toscana as well, whereas where I was born we have more to do with La Spezia, and, in the areas near the passes over the mountains, with Parma. Further south you start to get more Ligurian influence, although, as you said, Spezzino is not like the Ligurian of Genova. I think even that has Emilian influences.

    I never thought of Sarzana as having a Tuscan influence, but there's been a lot of movement of people from coastal Toscana and from the mountainous hinterland of Lucca into the area around La Spezia. Sarzana is almost a "bedroom" community of La Spezia now. Heck, so is my own village, which is about fifteen kilometers north of Sarzana. If I have a slight Tuscan accent, it's probably a western coastal one from that emigration's influence. Then, as I said, I studied in Pisa for a while. That's undoubtedly part of why I like the way that Ruffini sounds.

    This is the way that the people from Pontremoli sound (up valley):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Jl0fKdtxo

    This is mid-valley. He starts speaking about 1:35.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWariDiZX6Y

    This is Bugelli again, although he's singing. He may not be the best example, as he's sort of a fake "contadino", if you know what I mean, like a lot of "folk" singers in areas where nobody really speaks in dialect anymore and wouldn't dream of going around singing these songs.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfSW48RsV8

    Vezzano Ligure, which is my maternal grandfather's ancestral town. This one is in actual dialect of course, for comic effect.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZKAs29Fpzo

    Probably the allochthonous influences are stronger in the coastal areas, less closed than the Mountain Areas.

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    Pax Augusta;455521]Of course, neither Travaglio nor academic studies but mostly amateur bloggers since the 90s during the spread of neolocalism, neo-irredentism and exasperated sub-regionalisms. Ma la mia non vuole essere una critica all'identità lunigiana, che è assolutamente legittima e ha tutti i caratteri dell'originalità, ma più alle forzature storiche come tentativo di legittimazione di questi localismi esasperati e che non riguardano solamente la Lunigiana, ovviamente.
    I don't know what's written on blogs or sites like that because I am absolutely not in sympathy with any such movements, which, frankly, smack of racism of a sort to me, and so I don't seek them out. I am in sympathy with what Loris Jacopo Bononi said about how the people of the Lunigiana should treasure their history, although even his words and deeds are sometimes misused. What he says about the Lunigiana is also true for Italy as a whole...we have to know our history and our culture and value it.



    You can, however, in my opinion, love the culture of your own area, feel that you should know the history of your ancestors because it is part of your identity, and even feel some sadness that its distinctiveness is passing, without thinking that there is something inherently genetically or even culturally superior about it, and that this somehow gives you permission to disrespect that of others.

    Probably the allochthonous influences are stronger in the coastal areas, less closed than the Mountain Areas.
    Yes, I think you're right, particularly with respect to Sarzana and even perhaps La Spezia proper in terms of the accent nowadays. As for dialects, virtually no one speaks it on a regular basis anymore. Vezzano Ligure, which although very close as the crow flies is different, at least in terms of the accent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know what's written on blogs or sites like that because I am absolutely not in sympathy with any such movements, which, frankly, smack of racism of a sort to me, and so I don't seek them out. I am in sympathy with what Loris Jacopo Bononi said about how the people of the Lunigiana should treasure their history, although even his words and deeds are sometimes misused. What he says about the Lunigiana is also true for Italy as a whole...we have to know our history and our culture and value it.

    You can, however, in my opinion, love the culture of your own area, feel that you should know the history of your ancestors because it is part of your identity, and even feel some sadness that its distinctiveness is passing, without thinking that there is something inherently genetically or even culturally superior about it, and that this somehow gives you permission to disrespect that of others.
    I do agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I think you're right, particularly with respect to Sarzana and even perhaps La Spezia proper in terms of the accent nowadays. As for dialects, virtually no one speaks it on a regular basis anymore. Vezzano Ligure, which although very close as the crow flies is different, at least in terms of the accent.
    Another example of transitional area between the Gallo-Italic and the Tuscan is the Alto Reno, divided into the Alto Reno Bolognese and the Alto Reno Pistoiese. Unfortunately this area is not yet well studied. Some amateur scholars use the term "Gallo-Toscano linguistic system" due to the fact that in some little villages Emilian and Tuscan are so mixed and it's indistinguishable if the main language spoken is the Emilian or the Tuscan. I'd be curious to know the opinion of some academics.

    Besides the so-called linea La Spezia-Rimini (which some linguist renamed linea Massa-Senigallia, but the first name is still the most commonly used) there is another language border in Italy, the so-called linea Roma-Ancona, another line of demarcation marked by bundles of isoglosses.











    Treccani:

    Distinguiamo allora nel dominio italo-romanzo le seguenti macroaree (con le loro principali suddivisioni, fig. 1):


    Macroarea italiana settentrionale (o alto-italiana):
    area gallo-italica
    area veneta
    area istriana (dialetti istrioti)
    [Linea «La Spezia-Rimini»]
    Macroarea toscana (o di tipo toscano, o centrale non mediana)
    [Linea «Roma-Ancona»]
    Macroarea italiana centro-meridionale:
    area mediana
    area meridionale (o alto-meridionale, o meridionale-intermedia)
    Macroarea italiana meridionale estrema


    Altre lingue italo-romanze: sardo, friulano, ladino

    Another important line of demarcation should be the one between the Gallo-Italic and the area veneta but both are included in the Macroarea italiana settentrionale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post


    Another example of transitional area between the Gallo-Italic and the Tuscan is the Alto Reno, divided into the Alto Reno Bolognese and the Alto Reno Pistoiese. Unfortunately this area is not yet well studied. Some amateur scholars use the term "Gallo-Toscano linguistic system" due to the fact that in some little villages Emilian and Tuscan are so mixed and it's indistinguishable if the main language spoken is the Emilian or the Tuscan. I'd be curious to know the opinion of some academics.

    Besides the so-called linea La Spezia-Rimini (which some linguist renamed linea Massa-Senigallia, but the first name is still the most commonly used) there is another language border in Italy, the so-called linea Roma-Ancona, another line of demarcation marked by bundles of isoglosses.











    Treccani:

    Distinguiamo allora nel dominio italo-romanzo le seguenti macroaree (con le loro principali suddivisioni, fig. 1):


    Macroarea italiana settentrionale (o alto-italiana):
    area gallo-italica
    area veneta
    area istriana (dialetti istrioti)
    [Linea «La Spezia-Rimini»]
    Macroarea toscana (o di tipo toscano, o centrale non mediana)
    [Linea «Roma-Ancona»]
    Macroarea italiana centro-meridionale:
    area mediana
    area meridionale (o alto-meridionale, o meridionale-intermedia)
    Macroarea italiana meridionale estrema


    Altre lingue italo-romanze: sardo, friulano, ladino

    Another important line of demarcation should be the one between the Gallo-Italic and the area veneta but both are included in the Macroarea italiana settentrionale.
    Thanks for these, Pax Augusta,

    I'm not a linguist, but from just listening to these people speak, the different demarcation lines in Massa Carrara and the La Spezia area make absolute sense to me. Vezzano Ligure (my maternal grandfather's area) is definitely north and west of all those lines, as is Pontremoli. The area where line 1 terminates looks to be pretty close to the ancestral villages of my mother's mother. Line 3, more in the black and white version than the colored one tracks the Magra River for part of the way, with the accents to the west being less influenced by Tuscan.* It's always been and is still extraordinary to me that there could be such a difference across a river that in the height of summer is often mostly dry and thus you can walk to the other side. However, even into my father's time if not my mother's (he was much older) to cross the river from where I was born was impossible for most of the year. You had to go far up or down river to reach a bridge. Interestingly, in Roman times there was a large bridge there. Lines 2,4,6 and 7 are in the Garfagnana, which definitely sounds more Tuscan to me, and the Fivizzano of Bonomi is under their influence.

    *I don't have the link handy, but the division around this area is much earlier even than Diocletian's administrative reforms. Even in the earliest times the Magra served as a boundary (a secondary one after the Arno) between the "Etruschi" and the Celti-Liguri. For example, although the Etruschi were not far, no settlements have been found in the Lungiana, just trade goods, and, interestingly, some written Etruscan on some of our statue stele The earliest Roman administrators drew the administrative line nearby as well, at Luni at the mouth of the Magra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I do agree with you.



    Another example of transitional area between the Gallo-Italic and the Tuscan is the Alto Reno, divided into the Alto Reno Bolognese and the Alto Reno Pistoiese. Unfortunately this area is not yet well studied. Some amateur scholars use the term "Gallo-Toscano linguistic system" due to the fact that in some little villages Emilian and Tuscan are so mixed and it's indistinguishable if the main language spoken is the Emilian or the Tuscan. I'd be curious to know the opinion of some academics.

    Besides the so-called linea La Spezia-Rimini (which some linguist renamed linea Massa-Senigallia, but the first name is still the most commonly used) there is another language border in Italy, the so-called linea Roma-Ancona, another line of demarcation marked by bundles of isoglosses.











    Treccani:

    Distinguiamo allora nel dominio italo-romanzo le seguenti macroaree (con le loro principali suddivisioni, fig. 1):


    Macroarea italiana settentrionale (o alto-italiana):
    area gallo-italica
    area veneta
    area istriana (dialetti istrioti)
    [Linea «La Spezia-Rimini»]
    Macroarea toscana (o di tipo toscano, o centrale non mediana)
    [Linea «Roma-Ancona»]
    Macroarea italiana centro-meridionale:
    area mediana
    area meridionale (o alto-meridionale, o meridionale-intermedia)
    Macroarea italiana meridionale estrema


    Altre lingue italo-romanze: sardo, friulano, ladino

    Another important line of demarcation should be the one between the Gallo-Italic and the area veneta but both are included in the Macroarea italiana settentrionale.
    a more exacting ( recent , 2 to 3 years old ) picture of the languages of the northern italian lands..............note even the cimbrian languages

    The bergamo area , known as east-lombard has a very high concentration of venetian in it............most likely due to the 350 years of venetian control

    http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/...uePadanesi.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for these, Pax Augusta,

    I'm not a linguist, but from just listening to these people speak, the different demarcation lines in Massa Carrara and the La Spezia area make absolute sense to me. Vezzano Ligure (my maternal grandfather's area) is definitely north and west of all those lines, as is Pontremoli. The area where line 1 terminates looks to be pretty close to the ancestral villages of my mother's mother. Line 3, more in the black and white version than the colored one tracks the Magra River for part of the way, with the accents to the west being less influenced by Tuscan.* It's always been and is still extraordinary to me that there could be such a difference across a river that in the height of summer is often mostly dry and thus you can walk to the other side. However, even into my father's time if not my mother's (he was much older) to cross the river from where I was born was impossible for most of the year. You had to go far up or down river to reach a bridge. Interestingly, in Roman times there was a large bridge there. Lines 2,4,6 and 7 are in the Garfagnana, which definitely sounds more Tuscan to me, and the Fivizzano of Bonomi is under their influence..
    The different demarcation lines in Massa Carrara and the La Spezia area demonstrate how the passage from Tuscan to Gallo-Italic (and vice versa) is gradual and that the Magra river could have had a role indeed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    *I don't have the link handy, but the division around this area is much earlier even than Diocletian's administrative reforms. Even in the earliest times the Magra served as a boundary (a secondary one after the Arno) between the "Etruschi" and the Celti-Liguri. For example, although the Etruschi were not far, no settlements have been found in the Lungiana, just trade goods, and, interestingly, some written Etruscan on some of our statue stele The earliest Roman administrators drew the administrative line nearby as well, at Luni at the mouth of the Magra.
    Yes, Luni as most of modern-day Lunigiana was in Etruria region during the reign of Augustus. The mouth of the Magra seems to be the historical border. True that no Etruscan settlements have been found in the Lunigiana but according to historical sources (Titus Livius Patavinus known as Livy) Luni was an ancient Etruria town just before being occupied by Ligurians and then by Romans. Not to mention that there is another Luni in Italy and it's located in southern Etruria, modern-day Latium, Luni sul Mignone, but probably just a coincidence. In Liguria Etruscan remains were found, however, if I remember correctly in Genoa and other places (Chiavari?). Anyway the interactions between Ligurians and Etruscans, probably very ancient, deserve some other posts. I will be back on this.


    Titus Livius Patavinus known as Livy, (XLI, 13)

    .... De Ligure captus is ager erat. Etruscorum antequam Ligurum, fuerat.
    Livy said that Ager Lunensis (Lunigiana) was Etruscan before than Ligurian.


    Emanuele Repetti (he was born in Carrara), Dizionario geografico, fisico, storico della Toscana: contenente la descrizione di tutti i luoghi del granducato, ducato di Lucca, Garfagnana e Lunigiana, 1833-1845.

    "LUNI (LUNA) nella Val di Magra. Piccola città distrutta di origine etrusca, per quanto sia stata per molto tempo dominata dai Liguri, cui sottentrarono i Romani, dai quali la, città col suo distretto fu riunita al governo di Pisa, e conseguentemente alla provincia toscana. Quindi Luni sotto il triumvirato di Ottaviano, M. Antonio e Lepido dov� acocogliere una colonia militare. Dal dominio imperiale passò in potere dei Visigoti. quindl tornò ligia degl'Imperatori d'Oriente, cui fu tolta al prinicipio del secolo VII dai Longobardi che la riunirono pacificamente al loro regno. Vinti cotesti, ed espulsi dai Franchi, Luni decadde ogni giorno più sotto il regno de'Carolingi. Finalmente saccheggiata varie volte da genti di mare e disertata di abitatori dai ristagni palustri, che resero ogni giorno più malsano quel suolo, nel secolo XV fu totalmente abbandonata anche dal clero, quando si trasportarono a Sarzana con le reliquie di Luni le onorificenze di città."
    http://www.archeogr.unisi.it/repetti...sk.php?id=2513






    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    a more exacting ( recent , 2 to 3 years old ) picture of the languages of the northern italian lands..............note even the cimbrian languages

    The bergamo area , known as east-lombard has a very high concentration of venetian in it............most likely due to the 350 years of venetian control

    http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/...uePadanesi.png
    Thanks. My gf has Cimbrian ancestors. I will post something about them later.

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    Sorry, guys, I was trying to edit my post and I accidentally removed the whole thing.

    @PaxAugusta,

    Yes, Luni was a Roman colonia, and before that mixed Etruscan and Ligure. After the final fall of Luni, the inhabitants dispersed into the interior under their Bishop, including to Sarzana.

    I apologize that this map is smallish, but I think you can enlarge it a bit. Somewhere I have a paper that posits that Etruscan influence tracks mostly to Luni and then north and then easterly along the right or south bank of the Magra to Aulla and then basically followed the Aulella to just around Fivizzano. (I hope I can find it.) So, I don't know that I'd say that the majority of the modern Lunigiana was under Etruscan influence. Of course, these river boundaries were not impenetrable. It's interesting, however, that even today that tracks pretty well with the areas of strongest "Tuscan" influence on the language. It's amazing to me that such small boundaries can make a difference in speech patterns.



    They probably weren't terribly interested in the more mountainous areas. The most prosperous part of the Lunigiana has always been the low, fertile valley of the Magra nearer to the coast.

    Perhaps this gives a better view:



    There are dozens of maps out there based on the intensity of the Etruscan influence and also different depending on the time period, but this is one which is based on the fact that some scholars see the major demarcation line as the Arno, and the areas to the northwest of it as mixed Ligure and Etruscan.



    This creator obviously saw it differently, as this includes Luni and the lower valley.




    This one has the influence going all the way through northern Italy to the Swiss border and beyond, which makes sense if the Etruscans fled north.



    It's difficult to know precisely how Livy's "Lunigiana" would correspond to the modern Lunigiana.

    Certainly, when geneticists go looking for Italians to test for similarity to ancient Etruscan dna they don't go to the Lunigiana or LaSpezia or even Sarzana. (I do see that Barbujani got them to test in Adria. Like me, it seems he always wanted his area to have some Etruscan influence. :))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post








    In venetian we use

    Sal for salt
    Cavei or caveji for hair
    pan for bread
    unco for today ( oggi)

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    The Italian language is very similar to the Spanish language, and during the learning of the Italian language I often mixed the words form both languages .. The language is very sonorous and easy to learn

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    @ Sile
    I'm not a specialist about Italian dialects so I 'll leave Italian speakers do the most of the work here.
    Just:
    latin 'pômum' "fruit" >> popular latin 'pôma' french 'pomme,: "apple" ('aval' in breton): 'poma' spite it's a semantic and /gender morphologic evolution, is Italian', not a foreign word -
    'giorno' and 'di' have the same root; 'giorno' is an evolution of 'diurn-' >> french 'djourn' >> 'jour(n)', welsh 'dydd': "day" and 'diwrnod' :"daytime".
    all the today states standard languages are evolutions of a dominant dialect + loanwords (dialects and foreign) + new words of popular AND scholar creation; (except German, a more artificial creation of the southern group of chancelleries, after the printing system elaboration of Gutemberg; very often you can find synonyms of diverse origins, some popularly some scholarly created.
    more generally, the classification of dialects is a very hard work; the vocabulary is the less efficient way to discriminate dialects, because words travel with traders and stuff, and when dialects are no more in dense use, they tend to loose richness and select different words among the synonyms, creating a patchwork of holes, or of full and empty compartments for every word or seme; it's the case in Italian dialects for 'poma'/'mela' and other words, as in breton, french or any big or small language;
    phonetics evoluate more slowly and it's why, searching about past population moves or gravity centers of social life, I put more attention to phonetic isoglosses;
    in Italy, ranges of isoglosses seem interesting concerning History, dividing the country in parts which seem having some worth for History; the words distribution only could not give us as valuable clues; the 'toscan' classification for corsicanS dialectS is for me a badly based one, by example: more "administrative" (influence zone) than "ethnic" (origin and habits of speakers);
    Just my impressions. I leave the knowers to speak for details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @ Sile
    I'm not a specialist about Italian dialects so I 'll leave Italian speakers do the most of the work here.
    Just:
    latin 'pômum' "fruit" >> popular latin 'pôma' french 'pomme,: "apple" ('aval' in breton): 'poma' spite it's a semantic and /gender morphologic evolution, is Italian', not a foreign word -
    'giorno' and 'di' have the same root; 'giorno' is an evolution of 'diurn-' >> french 'djourn' >> 'jour(n)', welsh 'dydd': "day" and 'diwrnod' :"daytime".
    all the today states standard languages are evolutions of a dominant dialect + loanwords (dialects and foreign) + new words of popular AND scholar creation; (except German, a more artificial creation of the southern group of chancelleries, after the printing system elaboration of Gutemberg; very often you can find synonyms of diverse origins, some popularly some scholarly created.
    more generally, the classification of dialects is a very hard work; the vocabulary is the less efficient way to discriminate dialects, because words travel with traders and stuff, and when dialects are no more in dense use, they tend to loose richness and select different words among the synonyms, creating a patchwork of holes, or of full and empty compartments for every word or seme; it's the case in Italian dialects for 'poma'/'mela' and other words, as in breton, french or any big or small language;
    phonetics evoluate more slowly and it's why, searching about past population moves or gravity centers of social life, I put more attention to phonetic isoglosses;
    in Italy, ranges of isoglosses seem interesting concerning History, dividing the country in parts which seem having some worth for History; the words distribution only could not give us as valuable clues; the 'toscan' classification for corsicanS dialectS is for me a badly based one, by example: more "administrative" (influence zone) than "ethnic" (origin and habits of speakers);
    Just my impressions. I leave the knowers to speak for details.
    clearly the occitan influence in the 10th and 11th centuries (via the bards who travelled from Barcelona to Venice ) in north-italy and catalonia has stood the test of time ................

    FRA = Pomm piedmont = Poma veneto = Pomo

    even names
    Fra = pierre........north-italy = Pierro and Italy = pietro

    Fra = marissa north-Italy = marisa and italy = MariaLuisa

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The so-called Italian dialects are however not dialects of Italian (standard);
    Italian itself is mostly based on a Tuscan dialect, that of Petrarch and Bocaccio (standrdised by Bembo like German was by Lutherbibel and English by Hakluyt);
    The Italian dialects are diverse dialects of several Romanic branches thus making them sisters to each other and not daughters of "an Italian" language;

    How compatible each dialect was with another from a diff. branch would than depend on the specific dialects; But there are substantial diffs. (for example) between a dialect of Rhaeto-Romanic and a dialect of Italo-Dalmatian;

    A unified Italy (as we know it today) only existed since 1861;
    In 1870 (just 9 years after unification) Charles Dickens Jr. wrote a piece titled 'The Italian Peasant' and in this passage concerning the North Italian peasants/contadini he notes .... To them the lingua Toscana - the national speech of Italy - is a foreign tongue .... Their local speech is not recognised by the law .... (Sermons/Proclamation/Law-suites) are carried on, in a language which is as strange to them as the English language used to be to the inhabitants of the interior of Wales

    He further notes that the middle and upper classes of Lombardy and Venetia spoke a kauderwelsch which included bits of German and French and the Elite (en vogue) language being French at the time;

    Of the Tuscan peasant he notes:
    .... The shepherd-boy who tends his flocks on the mountains of the Val d'Arno, and knows nothing of books except that they have been forbidden by the priest, talks more correctly and pronounces his words better than the average Lombard gentleman

    Charles Dickens Jr. - 'The Italian Peasant' (1870) / p.438(right column)
    All the Year Round - Charles Dickens - Google Books
    Last edited by Nobody1; 20-11-15 at 07:15.

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    I had an Italian for boss and there was a very pretty blond Italian girl there. Having being taught in a Christian Brothers (mostly Irish Brothers, there was an American Brother named Donahue who was a former Marine and taught us to do push ups and to clap our hands on the ups. It was fun) boarding school for boys. I didn't know anything about girls. This pretty blonde winked at me. I didn't know what it meant. I was afraid of her as she was close to my boss. He was nice guy but you never know how he would react if I got too friendly his 'girl' i.e. he treated her like a daughter. Anyway she told me that in Italy one region could not understand speakers from another region which surprised me at the time. Now, that I think about it I missed my chance. That's life.

    She looked like Jackie Evancho here except her nose is slightly smaller and has hair up to her neck and curly hair

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=jacki...ARJtCpw1cQ4%3D
    Last edited by oriental; 21-11-15 at 21:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    I had an Italian for boss and there was a very pretty blond Italian girl there. Having being taught in a Christian Brothers (mostly Irish Brothers, there was an American Brother named Donahue who was a former Marine and taught us to do push ups and to clap our hands on the ups. It was fun) boarding school for boys. I didn't know anything about girls. This pretty blonde winked at me. I didn't know what it meant. I was afraid of her as she was close to my boss. He was nice guy but you never know how he would react if I got too friendly his 'girl' i.e. he treated her like a daughter. Anyway she told me that in Italy one region could not understand speakers from another region which surprised me at the time. Now, that I think about I missed my chance. That's life.
    HAR HAR HAR
    You really were one of the dumbest (dib #its) around when i was still active;
    No changes there;

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    @ Nobody1
    I agree "italian" dialects cannot be dialects of standard italian for they are older than it; when I say 'Italian', by example, I rhink "of Italy" - the same for French; standard french is roughly an Île-de-France dialect influenced by Touraine/Orléanais dialect (South) and Champagne dialect (Northeast: here I speak of language, not of wine!) because Île-de-France is in contact with both and the France kings in Middle Ages were found of tours in Orlénais; after that, like in every standard language chosen for some political reason, french became enriched with ancient latin and grek forms for science, law, tecnics plus foreign more or less exotic words (trade) etc... how often I heard French people themselves saying to me: "how is it possible these patois (dialects) had deformed so deeply the french language (standard, in their mind)!"

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    Italian dialects: in fact: romance dialects of Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @ Nobody1
    I agree "italian" dialects cannot be dialects of standard italian for they are older than it; when I say 'Italian', by example, I rhink "of Italy" - the same for French; standard french is roughly an Île-de-France dialect influenced by Touraine/Orléanais dialect (South) and Champagne dialect (Northeast: here I speak of language, not of wine!) because Île-de-France is in contact with both and the France kings in Middle Ages were found of tours in Orlénais; after that, like in every standard language chosen for some political reason, french became enriched with ancient latin and grek forms for science, law, tecnics plus foreign more or less exotic words (trade) etc... how often I heard French people themselves saying to me: "how is it possible these patois (dialects) had deformed so deeply the french language (standard, in their mind)!"
    what you agree with or not is highly secondary to me;

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @ Nobody1
    I agree "italian" dialects cannot be dialects of standard italian for they are older than it; when I say 'Italian', by example, I rhink "of Italy" - the same for French; standard french is roughly an Île-de-France dialect influenced by Touraine/Orléanais dialect (South) and Champagne dialect (Northeast: here I speak of language, not of wine!) because Île-de-France is in contact with both and the France kings in Middle Ages were found of tours in Orlénais; after that, like in every standard language chosen for some political reason, french became enriched with ancient latin and grek forms for science, law, tecnics plus foreign more or less exotic words (trade) etc... how often I heard French people themselves saying to me: "how is it possible these patois (dialects) had deformed so deeply the french language (standard, in their mind)!"
    In standard italian as well as standard french ...........the ancient regional linguistic influences ALWAYS penetrate the standard languages , italian from the south is not exact as italian from NE-Itlay or italian from NW -Italy .

    I have same issue with my cousins in Toulouse and Aix-les-Bains ( Savoie) in france , they argue with each other on who speaks the proper standard french because there is a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The so-called Italian dialects are however not dialects of Italian (standard);
    Italian itself is mostly based on a Tuscan dialect, that of Petrarch and Bocaccio (standrdised by Bembo like German was by Lutherbibel and English by Hakluyt);
    The Italian dialects are diverse dialects of several Romanic branches thus making them sisters to each other and not daughters of "an Italian" language;

    How compatible each dialect was with another from a diff. branch would than depend on the specific dialects; But there are substantial diffs. (for example) between a dialect of Rhaeto-Romanic and a dialect of Italo-Dalmatian;

    A unified Italy (as we know it today) only existed since 1861;
    In 1870 (just 9 years after unification) Charles Dickens Jr. wrote a piece titled 'The Italian Peasant' and in this passage concerning the North Italian peasants/contadini he notes .... To them the lingua Toscana - the national speech of Italy - is a foreign tongue .... Their local speech is not recognised by the law .... (Sermons/Proclamation/Law-suites) are carried on, in a language which is as strange to them as the English language used to be to the inhabitants of the interior of Wales

    He further notes that the middle and upper classes of Lombardy and Venetia spoke a kauderwelsch which included bits of German and French and the Elite (en vogue) language being French at the time;

    Of the Tuscan peasant he notes:
    .... The shepherd-boy who tends his flocks on the mountains of the Val d'Arno, and knows nothing of books except that they have been forbidden by the priest, talks more correctly and pronounces his words better than the average Lombard gentleman

    Charles Dickens Jr. - 'The Italian Peasant' (1870) / p.438(right column)
    All the Year Round - Charles Dickens - Google Books


    watch your step................you will be banned for saying this, not from me..............but others here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    HAR HAR HAR
    You really were one of the dumbest (dib #its) around when i was still active;
    No changes there;

    I am glad I made you laugh. We all do stupid things once in a while either from ignorance or by mistake, yes? I don't mind your laughter. I do all of this for fun anyway. I don't take anything too seriously.

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