The Italian Language



the term, Toscano co lengua Romano .............was due to the comment Dante stated about the Roman dialect, .............the later modifiers of Dante's Italian dialect tried to clear up this Dante comment by making the changes of the Italian dialect from Rome,


I state that Italian scholars are not inferior to English Scholars, but state a nationalistic bias is supported for their papers. If in Italy, one does not conform with what the nation wants the populace to learn in school, then it will not go ahead.


The quote you have provided is not in any way probative because it concerns Dante's opinion of the "language" spoken in Rome in his time, and explains why he considered it inferior to Florentine, the Florentine which developed into standard Italian. Nowhere does the phrase "lingua toscana in bocca romana"appear in your quote.

Please provide a source which explains that specific phrase as applying to any deliberate modification of standard Italian by Pietro Bembo or anyone else which then made its way back into Tuscany, which is what you stated upthread.* If it exists, I'd like to see it. If it doesn't exist, then your interpretation is, I'm afraid, incorrect.

Perhaps the confusion arises because you are not giving sufficient weight to the meaning of the phrase "in bocca"? It means literally "in the mouth". It refers to pronunciation.

*Indeed, Tuscans, in my experience, especially when speaking amongst themselves, do not necessarily aim for either the "Roman" pronunciation or the "quasi Milanese" one even today, and some still display some version of the distinctive "gorgia". You can hear it in the following youtube video.

A young Tuscan homesick for Tuscany because he has been living in Spain writes a collection of Tuscan expressions which he calls a Tuscan "Vohabolario", poking fun at the propensity of people with a strong Tuscan accent for sometimes turning the "hard" c into h.

I think Matteo Renzi can sound pretty "down home" at times.

No less an authority than Claudio Marazzini, Torinese, Professor of Italian at the University of Piemone, Editor of the text "Parlare e Scrivere", and President of the reknowned Accademia della Crusca, one of the arbiters of the Italian language, in response to the statement and question that "It is said that the best Italian is spoken in Florence. How do you judge the language of Renzi, the ex-mayor of Florence?" (and now leader of Italy) not only commented on Renzi's Italian but discussed the birth of Italian.

"L’italiano è nato a Firenze, ma non tutto il fiorentino è passato nell’italiano standard. Certo, il possesso dell’italiano da parte dei fiorentini è sempre entusiasmante. In un bar qui vicino ho sentito la parola “nocchino”, per indicare un piccolo buffetto. È una delizia ascoltarli.

"Italian was born in Florence, but not all of the Florentine language passed into standard Italian."

In my opinion, that's a very precise and accurate answer. I would also add that other language traditions, foreign influences etc., can be seen in standard Italian, as well as just natural evolution through time, and the Florentine dialects themselves have developed since the time of Dante. There is nothing unique about this. It is just part of the fact that languages evolve through time. English today is not the English of Chaucer, or Shakespeare, or even that of the Romantics and Victorians. Foreign influences, especially that of French, have had a profound impact upon it. Languages constantly evolve; if they don't it's because they are dead languages really not spoken by anyone...like Latin.

He then goes on to describe what a delight it is to listen to the exciting and inventive way Florentines use the language. As to Renzi, he has this to say:

Renzi parla un italiano marcatamente toscano, ma non sempre. Come tutti i toscani, il presidente del Consiglio ha certamente delle doti di affabulazione notevoli e lui ci aggiunge una grande capacità comunicativa.

Renzi speaks an Italian that is markedly Tuscan, although that is not always the case. Like all Tuscans, the President of the Council of Ministers has great story telling (or fable making) skills, to which he adds skills with communication. :)

I wonder how Tuscan other members think he sounds in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cVRN_RieWM

I quite like the way another Tuscan speaks...Paolo Ruffini... or maybe I just like him. He's completely adorable, especially when the the 60 year old makes him blush. :) The segment was filmed in Pistoia. The discussion is slightly risque, so beware if you understand Italian and are sensitive about such things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEgLEfmVQF8
 
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The quote you have provided is not in any way probative because it concerns Dante's opinion of the "language" spoken in Rome in his time, and explains why he considered it inferior to Florentine, the Florentine which developed into standard Italian. Nowhere does the phrase "lingua toscana in bocca romana"appear in your quote.

Please provide a source which explains that specific phrase as applying to any deliberate modification of standard Italian by Pietro Bembo or anyone else which then made its way back into Tuscany, which is what you stated upthread.* If it exists, I'd like to see it. If it doesn't exist, then your interpretation is, I'm afraid, incorrect.

Perhaps the confusion arises because you are not giving sufficient weight to the meaning of the phrase "in bocca"? It means literally "in the mouth". It refers to pronunciation.

*Indeed, Tuscans, in my experience, especially when speaking amongst themselves, do not necessarily aim for either the "Roman" pronunciation or the "quasi Milanese" one even today, and some still display some version of the distinctive "gorgia". You can hear it in the following youtube video.

A young Tuscan homesick for Tuscany because he has been living in Spain writes a collection of Tuscan expressions which he calls a Tuscan "Vohabolario", poking fun at the propensity of people with a strong Tuscan accent for sometimes turning the "hard" c into h.

I think Matteo Renzi can sound pretty "down home" at times.

No less an authority than Claudio Marazzini, Torinese, Professor of Italian at the University of Piemone, Editor of the text "Parlare e Scrivere", and President of the reknowned Accademia della Crusca, one of the arbiters of the Italian language, in response to the statement and question that "It is said that the best Italian is spoken in Florence. How do you judge the language of Renzi, the ex-mayor of Florence?" (and now leader of Italy) not only commented on Renzi's Italian but discussed the birth of Italian.

"L’italiano è nato a Firenze, ma non tutto il fiorentino è passato nell’italiano standard. Certo, il possesso dell’italiano da parte dei fiorentini è sempre entusiasmante. In un bar qui vicino ho sentito la parola “nocchino”, per indicare un piccolo buffetto. È una delizia ascoltarli.

"Italian was born in Florence, but not all of the Florentine language passed into standard Italian."

In my opinion, that's a very precise and accurate answer. I would also add that other language traditions, foreign influences etc., can be seen in standard Italian, as well as just natural evolution through time, and the Florentine dialects themselves have developed since the time of Dante. There is nothing unique about this. It is just part of the fact that languages evolve through time. English today is not the English of Chaucer, or Shakespeare, or even that of the Romantics and Victorians. Foreign influences, especially that of French, have had a profound impact upon it. Languages constantly evolve; if they don't it's because they are dead languages really not spoken by anyone...like Latin.

He then goes on to describe what a delight it is to listen to the exciting and inventive way Florentines use the language. As to Renzi, he has this to say:

Renzi parla un italiano marcatamente toscano, ma non sempre. Come tutti i toscani, il presidente del Consiglio ha certamente delle doti di affabulazione notevoli e lui ci aggiunge una grande capacità comunicativa.

Renzi speaks an Italian that is markedly Tuscan, although that is not always the case. Like all Tuscans, the President of the Council of Ministers has great story telling (or fable making) skills, to which he adds skills with communication. :)

I wonder how Tuscan other members think he sounds in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cVRN_RieWM

I quite like the way another Tuscan speaks...Paolo Ruffini... or maybe I just like him. He's completely adorable, especially when the the 60 year old makes him blush. :) The segment was filmed in Pistoia. The discussion is slightly risque, so beware if you understand Italian and are sensitive about such things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEgLEfmVQF8

why are you deflecting what I am saying and keep referring to italian today.

I will simplify for you as you seem confused on what I said many times .............I will do it in point form

Dante created the artificial italian dialect in Florence for use for the merchant and artisan classes.
- This language was not accepted by the florentines.
- Dante based his articifial italian dialect mostly with tuscan and gallo-italic languages ............other areas less so.
- when dante fled florence and settled in Ravenna is works basically ceased.
- centuries after his death , other scholars took up this artifical dialect and worked on it, change it, added to it etc.
- after 450 years , this artificial dialect was in use for only 2% ( I though it was 3% ) of the 22million italians ( year 1861).

I have already given you some examples of its uselessness and here is another example.

Tomato- referred in English as "Apple of Gold"
In modern Italian , a Tomato is a Pomodoro
The word Pomodoro broken down is
POMO - apple
D -of
ORO - gold
BUT Pomo is not the word for apple in Italian, the word is MELA
WHY is not the word then , for tomato in Italy not Meladoro??????????????

Answer, because italian was artificially created and makes makes very little sense for linguists , it does not accept its own words for many many things.
In modern Italy, Italian is spoken in each region with their own regional languages thrown in. I have seen this personally all over Italy. Since it never was created by a community like every other language, it would be replaced quickly IF any region gained full independence.

In the Media ..RAI as an example , italian has slowly changed to a Neapolitan base ( twang) mode of Italian ( last 20 years ).
 
why are you deflecting what I am saying and keep referring to italian today.

I will simplify for you as you seem confused on what I said many times .............I will do it in point form

Dante created the artificial italian dialect in Florence for use for the merchant and artisan classes.
- This language was not accepted by the florentines.
- Dante based his articifial italian dialect mostly with tuscan and gallo-italic languages ............other areas less so.
- when dante fled florence and settled in Ravenna is works basically ceased.
- centuries after his death , other scholars took up this artifical dialect and worked on it, change it, added to it etc.
- after 450 years , this artificial dialect was in use for only 2% ( I though it was 3% ) of the 22million italians ( year 1861).

I have already given you some examples of its uselessness and here is another example.

Tomato- referred in English as "Apple of Gold"
In modern Italian , a Tomato is a Pomodoro
The word Pomodoro broken down is
POMO - apple
D -of
ORO - gold
BUT Pomo is not the word for apple in Italian, the word is MELA
WHY is not the word then , for tomato in Italy not Meladoro??????????????

Answer, because italian was artificially created and makes makes very little sense for linguists , it does not accept its own words for many many things.
In modern Italy, Italian is spoken in each region with their own regional languages thrown in. I have seen this personally all over Italy. Since it never was created by a community like every other language, it would be replaced quickly IF any region gained full independence.

In the Media ..RAI as an example , italian has slowly changed to a Neapolitan base ( twang) mode of Italian ( last 20 years ).

How do you account for the Florentine Italian literature of Boccaccio and Petrarch in the 14th century soon after Dante's death?
 
I quite like the way another Tuscan speaks...Paolo Ruffini... or maybe I just like him. He's completely adorable, especially when the the 60 year old makes him blush. :) The segment was filmed in Pistoia. The discussion is slightly risque, so beware if you understand Italian and are sensitive about such things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEgLEfmVQF8


Btw Paolo Ruffini is from Livorno, he speaks Italian with a western Tuscan accent/intonation, not exactly Florentine

A better example of Florentine/Tuscan, Carlo Monni (with Roberto Benigni)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hxf2m6BIoY

Carlo Monni recits Dante

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEeYTzSJAfo


An example of vernacular peripheral Florentine (from a famous '70s Italian movie comedy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPOEIbkqyIA
 
why are you deflecting what I am saying and keep referring to italian today.

I will simplify for you as you seem confused on what I said many times .............I will do it in point form

Dante created the artificial italian dialect in Florence for use for the merchant and artisan classes.
- This language was not accepted by the florentines.
- Dante based his articifial italian dialect mostly with tuscan and gallo-italic languages ............other areas less so.
- when dante fled florence and settled in Ravenna is works basically ceased.
- centuries after his death , other scholars took up this artifical dialect and worked on it, change it, added to it etc.
- after 450 years , this artificial dialect was in use for only 2% ( I though it was 3% ) of the 22million italians ( year 1861).

I have already given you some examples of its uselessness and here is another example.

Tomato- referred in English as "Apple of Gold"
In modern Italian , a Tomato is a Pomodoro
The word Pomodoro broken down is
POMO - apple
D -of
ORO - gold
BUT Pomo is not the word for apple in Italian, the word is MELA
WHY is not the word then , for tomato in Italy not Meladoro??????????????

Answer, because italian was artificially created and makes makes very little sense for linguists , it does not accept its own words for many many things.
In modern Italy, Italian is spoken in each region with their own regional languages thrown in. I have seen this personally all over Italy. Since it never was created by a community like every other language, it would be replaced quickly IF any region gained full independence.

In the Media ..RAI as an example , italian has slowly changed to a Neapolitan base ( twang) mode of Italian ( last 20 years ).

It is obvious that you cannot support any of your points with any citations to material on the Italian language in any linguistic text written by anyone, of any nationality whatsoever, or you would have supplied it after all these requests. It is also obvious that linguistic texts and historical facts show that you are totally mistaken. This appears to be clear to everyone but you.

I really can't waste any more time on this. There are people who think the earth is flat too, but no one bothers to debate them.
 
Btw Paolo Ruffini is from Livorno, he speaks Italian with a western Tuscan accent/intonation, not exactly Florentine

A better example of Florentine/Tuscan, Carlo Monni (with Roberto Benigni)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hxf2m6BIoY


An example of vernacular peripheral Florentine (from a famous '70s Italian movie comedy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPOEIbkqyIA

Maybe that's why I like it better. :)

If you have a chance, perhaps you can listen to this two minute snippet and let me know what it sounds like to your ear?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGlFIQCmIkA&index=4&list=PLSSxbG2ohitd9mW7QJpEGIBAuA27ZR0_D
 
It is obvious that you cannot support any of your points with any citations to material on the Italian language in any linguistic text written by anyone, of any nationality whatsoever, or you would have supplied it after all these requests. It is also obvious that linguistic texts and historical facts show that you are totally mistaken. This appears to be clear to everyone but you.

I really can't waste any more time on this. There are people who think the earth is flat too, but no one bothers to debate them.

It is obvious you are avoiding the main question.

We agree Italian was created by Dante in Florence, but you avoid an explanation on why after nearly 500 years since it's creation only 2% of the italian peninsula spoke Italian. Answer this question and you can answer the other questions you have asked.
 
Maybe that's why I like it better. :)

If you have a chance, perhaps you can listen to this two minute snippet and let me know what it sounds like to your ear?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGlFIQCmIkA&index=4&list=PLSSxbG2ohitd9mW7QJpEGIBAuA27ZR0_D

He speaks Italian with a very slight Gallo-Italic intonation but not so strong. I guess some kind of Emilian but it sounds to me different from the Bolognese. As the Spezzino dialect sounds to me very different from the Genoese. I like very much Lunigiana but I think that there is a bit too much propaganda, especially on the web, about the so called liguri apuani. Actually we still know little about the ancient Ligurians (Beyond Liguria ancient Ligurians settled in most of Northern Tuscany, in Piedmont, Lombardy and Emilia as well).
 
It is obvious you are avoiding the main question.

We agree Italian was created by Dante in Florence, but you avoid an explanation on why after nearly 500 years since it's creation only 2% of the italian peninsula spoke Italian. Answer this question and you can answer the other questions you have asked.

Actually we don't know the exact number of people in Italy that spoke Tuscan/Italian around 1861.

2% (or better 2,5%) is just an hypothesis of Italian linguist Tullio De Mauro (Tullio De Mauro, Storia linguistica dell’Italia unita, Roma - Bari, Laterza, 2 voll., 1976 - 1a ed. 1963 - p. 43) but according to another Italian linguist Arrigo Castellani (Arrigo Castellani, Quanti erano gl’italofoni nel 1861?, «Studi linguistici italiani» 8, 1982, pp. 3-26.) they were the 10%, considering that in 1861 in Italy 75% of the population was illiterate according to many studies.
 
He speaks Italian with a very slight Gallo-Italic intonation but not so strong. I guess some kind of Emilian but it sounds to me different from the Bolognese. As the Spezzino dialect sounds to me very different from the Genoese. I like very much Lunigiana but I think that there is a bit too much propaganda, especially on the web, about the so called liguri apuani. Actually we still know little about the ancient Ligurians (Beyond Liguria ancient Ligurians settled in most of Northern Tuscany, in Piedmont, Lombardy and Emilia as well).

I wasn't aware that anyone in the internet world paid much attention to it...well, apart from me, that is...:) It's a bit of a rural backwater...and not much of a tourist mecca......although the English are beginning to discover it as a destination for vacation homes as prices are still pretty low.

I'm not very much into any of this kind of thing...neither about the Liguri Apuani nor about the Celtici over the Appennini where my father's family originated.. I'm not saying they're not part of our heritage...it's just that the Romans are too, and I'm sure some Etruschi must have crossed the Magra as well, even if there were no settlements, not to mention the Neolithic base in the whole of the peninsula.

I only posted him because he comes from a village very close to my mother's and very close to where I was born, and he speaks the way the old country people of that area speak...the area 'dialetto', not refined, and not trying to ape any particular 'posh' accent. I guess I'm saying that he sounds typical of older common people native to that particular area.

Someone once told me it sounded like emiliano un po' ligurizzato, with the Emilian part being close to Pramzàn and the Ligurian part being Spezzino, which itself is, as you say, quite different from what is spoken in Genova. On the other hand, strangers I meet when I'm traveling in Italy tell me I sound a bit Tuscan. I don't know why that would be unless it's in the local intonation and accent. I just wanted another opinion, and to see if you could hear any trace of toscano in it after a couple of hundred years of being administered by them. I don't hear it myself, at least not in the accent. I think you have to go to Massa to start really hearing it.

Thanks for the response.


Ed. Mystery solved...it must be because my university professor in Italian here, and all of them for my year at university in Italy were Tuscans or long established there. They must have affected my speech a bit...It's all good, as long as I don't have that aspiration all over the place.
 
I wasn't aware that anyone in the internet world paid much attention to it...well, apart from me, that is...:) It's a bit of a rural backwater...and not much of a tourist mecca......although the English are beginning to discover it as a destination for vacation homes as prices are still pretty low.

I'm not very much into any of this kind of thing...neither about the Liguri Apuani nor about the Celtici over the Appennini where my father's family originated.. I'm not saying they're not part of our heritage...it's just that the Romans are too, and I'm sure some Etruschi must have crossed the Magra as well, even if there were no settlements, not to mention the Neolithic base in the whole of the peninsula.

Especially in the Italian websites.

I only posted him because he comes from a village very close to my mother's and very close to where I was born, and he speaks the way the old country people of that area speak...the area 'dialetto', not refined, and not trying to ape any particular 'posh' accent. I guess I'm saying that he sounds typical of older common people native to that particular area.

Someone once told me it sounded like emiliano un po' ligurizzato, with the Emilian part being close to Pramzàn and the Ligurian part being Spezzino, which itself is, as you say, quite different from what is spoken in Genova. On the other hand, strangers I meet when I'm traveling in Italy tell me I sound a bit Tuscan. I don't know why that would be unless it's in the local intonation and accent. I just wanted another opinion, and to see if you could hear any trace of toscano in it after a couple of hundred years of being administered by them. I don't hear it myself, at least not in the accent. I think you have to go to Massa to start really hearing it.

Thanks for the response.

Yes, probably more pramzàn than bulgnais. I don't find in him neither a Tuscan nor a Ligurian infuence but I need other videos with longer speeches of him. On a general level I think it depends by the specific area of Lunigiana. I have heard people from Lunigiana with a Tuscan influence, others with a Ligurian influence. As I heard in some people from Sarzana (so Spezzino dialect) a Tuscan influence.


Ed. Mystery solved...it must be because my university professor in Italian here, and all of them for my year at university in Italy were Tuscans or long established there. They must have affected my speech a bit...It's all good, as long as I don't have that aspiration all over the place.

If you mean the Tuscan aspiration is basically concentrated in the northern-eastern Tuscan (Florentine, Pistoiese, Pratese....) and to a lesser extent in the Sienese, but not so strong in the western Tuscan (Lucchese, Pisano-Livornese...).
 
Pax Augusta;455204]Especially in the Italian websites.

Well, I sure don't read about it at Marco Travaglio's blog, or university ones, or culture sites. I rarely meet anyone in Italy who knows anything about it, other than that it's the hinterland of LaSpezia. Trust me, the food and scenery and outdoor pursuits are great, but compared to Parma or Genova or almost anywhere in Toscana? I mean, I love it, because it's mine, and I think the people are the finest in the world, but it was never a hub of art or architecture or culture on a par with those other places...it was too poor for that.

Yes, probably more pramzàn than bulgnais. I don't find in him neither a Tuscan nor a Ligurian infuence but I need other videos with longer speeches of him. On a general level I think it depends by the specific area of Lunigiana. I have heard people from Lunigiana with a Tuscan influence, others with a Ligurian influence. As I heard in some people from Sarzana (so Spezzino dialect) a Tuscan influence

Yes, even the map I posted upthread shows an influence from all three regions. The region where you can hear the Tuscan influence clearly is in Fivizzano and surrounding villages, I think. They maintain lots more cultural ties with Toscana as well, whereas where I was born we have more to do with La Spezia, and, in the areas near the passes over the mountains, with Parma. Further south you start to get more Ligurian influence, although, as you said, Spezzino is not like the Ligurian of Genova. I think even that has Emilian influences.

I never thought of Sarzana as having a Tuscan influence, but there's been a lot of movement of people from coastal Toscana and from the mountainous hinterland of Lucca into the area around La Spezia. Sarzana is almost a "bedroom" community of La Spezia now. Heck, so is my own village, which is about fifteen kilometers north of Sarzana. If I have a slight Tuscan accent, it's probably a western coastal one from that emigration's influence. Then, as I said, I studied in Pisa for a while. That's undoubtedly part of why I like the way that Ruffini sounds.

This is the way that the people from Pontremoli sound (up valley):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Jl0fKdtxo

This is mid-valley. He starts speaking about 1:35.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWariDiZX6Y

This is Bugelli again, although he's singing. He may not be the best example, as he's sort of a fake "contadino", if you know what I mean, like a lot of "folk" singers in areas where nobody really speaks in dialect anymore and wouldn't dream of going around singing these songs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfSW48RsV8

Vezzano Ligure, which is my maternal grandfather's ancestral town. This one is in actual dialect of course, for comic effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZKAs29Fpzo
 
Well, I sure don't read about it at Marco Travaglio's blog, or university ones, or culture sites. I rarely meet anyone in Italy who knows anything about it, other than that it's the hinterland of LaSpezia. Trust me, the food and scenery and outdoor pursuits are great, but compared to Parma or Genova or almost anywhere in Toscana? I mean, I love it, because it's mine, and I think the people are the finest in the world, but it was never a hub of art or architecture or culture on a par with those other places...it was too poor for that.

Of course, neither Travaglio nor academic studies but mostly amateur bloggers since the 90s during the spread of neolocalism, neo-irredentism and exasperated sub-regionalisms. Ma la mia non vuole essere una critica all'identità lunigiana, che è assolutamente legittima e ha tutti i caratteri dell'originalità, ma più alle forzature storiche come tentativo di legittimazione di questi localismi esasperati e che non riguardano solamente la Lunigiana, ovviamente.


Yes, even the map I posted upthread shows an influence from all three regions. The region where you can hear the Tuscan influence clearly is in Fivizzano and surrounding villages, I think. They maintain lots more cultural ties with Toscana as well, whereas where I was born we have more to do with La Spezia, and, in the areas near the passes over the mountains, with Parma. Further south you start to get more Ligurian influence, although, as you said, Spezzino is not like the Ligurian of Genova. I think even that has Emilian influences.

I never thought of Sarzana as having a Tuscan influence, but there's been a lot of movement of people from coastal Toscana and from the mountainous hinterland of Lucca into the area around La Spezia. Sarzana is almost a "bedroom" community of La Spezia now. Heck, so is my own village, which is about fifteen kilometers north of Sarzana. If I have a slight Tuscan accent, it's probably a western coastal one from that emigration's influence. Then, as I said, I studied in Pisa for a while. That's undoubtedly part of why I like the way that Ruffini sounds.

This is the way that the people from Pontremoli sound (up valley):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Jl0fKdtxo

This is mid-valley. He starts speaking about 1:35.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWariDiZX6Y

This is Bugelli again, although he's singing. He may not be the best example, as he's sort of a fake "contadino", if you know what I mean, like a lot of "folk" singers in areas where nobody really speaks in dialect anymore and wouldn't dream of going around singing these songs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfSW48RsV8

Vezzano Ligure, which is my maternal grandfather's ancestral town. This one is in actual dialect of course, for comic effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZKAs29Fpzo


Probably the allochthonous influences are stronger in the coastal areas, less closed than the Mountain Areas.
 
Pax Augusta;455521]Of course, neither Travaglio nor academic studies but mostly amateur bloggers since the 90s during the spread of neolocalism, neo-irredentism and exasperated sub-regionalisms. Ma la mia non vuole essere una critica all'identità lunigiana, che è assolutamente legittima e ha tutti i caratteri dell'originalità, ma più alle forzature storiche come tentativo di legittimazione di questi localismi esasperati e che non riguardano solamente la Lunigiana, ovviamente.

I don't know what's written on blogs or sites like that because I am absolutely not in sympathy with any such movements, which, frankly, smack of racism of a sort to me, and so I don't seek them out. I am in sympathy with what Loris Jacopo Bononi said about how the people of the Lunigiana should treasure their history, although even his words and deeds are sometimes misused. What he says about the Lunigiana is also true for Italy as a whole...we have to know our history and our culture and value it.


You can, however, in my opinion, love the culture of your own area, feel that you should know the history of your ancestors because it is part of your identity, and even feel some sadness that its distinctiveness is passing, without thinking that there is something inherently genetically or even culturally superior about it, and that this somehow gives you permission to disrespect that of others.

Probably the allochthonous influences are stronger in the coastal areas, less closed than the Mountain Areas.

Yes, I think you're right, particularly with respect to Sarzana and even perhaps La Spezia proper in terms of the accent nowadays. As for dialects, virtually no one speaks it on a regular basis anymore. Vezzano Ligure, which although very close as the crow flies is different, at least in terms of the accent.
 
I don't know what's written on blogs or sites like that because I am absolutely not in sympathy with any such movements, which, frankly, smack of racism of a sort to me, and so I don't seek them out. I am in sympathy with what Loris Jacopo Bononi said about how the people of the Lunigiana should treasure their history, although even his words and deeds are sometimes misused. What he says about the Lunigiana is also true for Italy as a whole...we have to know our history and our culture and value it.

You can, however, in my opinion, love the culture of your own area, feel that you should know the history of your ancestors because it is part of your identity, and even feel some sadness that its distinctiveness is passing, without thinking that there is something inherently genetically or even culturally superior about it, and that this somehow gives you permission to disrespect that of others.

I do agree with you.

Yes, I think you're right, particularly with respect to Sarzana and even perhaps La Spezia proper in terms of the accent nowadays. As for dialects, virtually no one speaks it on a regular basis anymore. Vezzano Ligure, which although very close as the crow flies is different, at least in terms of the accent.

Another example of transitional area between the Gallo-Italic and the Tuscan is the Alto Reno, divided into the Alto Reno Bolognese and the Alto Reno Pistoiese. Unfortunately this area is not yet well studied. Some amateur scholars use the term "Gallo-Toscano linguistic system" due to the fact that in some little villages Emilian and Tuscan are so mixed and it's indistinguishable if the main language spoken is the Emilian or the Tuscan. I'd be curious to know the opinion of some academics.

Besides the so-called linea La Spezia-Rimini (which some linguist renamed linea Massa-Senigallia, but the first name is still the most commonly used) there is another language border in Italy, the so-called linea Roma-Ancona, another line of demarcation marked by bundles of isoglosses.

nVUhHR4.jpg


JJQNQXY.jpg





009_Aree_linguistiche.jpg



Treccani:

Distinguiamo allora nel dominio italo-romanzo le seguenti macroaree (con le loro principali suddivisioni, fig. 1):


Macroarea italiana settentrionale (o alto-italiana):
area gallo-italica
area veneta
area istriana (dialetti istrioti)
[Linea «La Spezia-Rimini»]
Macroarea toscana (o di tipo toscano, o centrale non mediana)
[Linea «Roma-Ancona»]
Macroarea italiana centro-meridionale:
area mediana
area meridionale (o alto-meridionale, o meridionale-intermedia)
Macroarea italiana meridionale estrema


Altre lingue italo-romanze: sardo, friulano, ladino

Another important line of demarcation should be the one between the Gallo-Italic and the area veneta but both are included in the Macroarea italiana settentrionale.
 
Another example of transitional area between the Gallo-Italic and the Tuscan is the Alto Reno, divided into the Alto Reno Bolognese and the Alto Reno Pistoiese. Unfortunately this area is not yet well studied. Some amateur scholars use the term "Gallo-Toscano linguistic system" due to the fact that in some little villages Emilian and Tuscan are so mixed and it's indistinguishable if the main language spoken is the Emilian or the Tuscan. I'd be curious to know the opinion of some academics.

Besides the so-called linea La Spezia-Rimini (which some linguist renamed linea Massa-Senigallia, but the first name is still the most commonly used) there is another language border in Italy, the so-called linea Roma-Ancona, another line of demarcation marked by bundles of isoglosses.

nVUhHR4.jpg


JJQNQXY.jpg





009_Aree_linguistiche.jpg



Treccani:

Distinguiamo allora nel dominio italo-romanzo le seguenti macroaree (con le loro principali suddivisioni, fig. 1):


Macroarea italiana settentrionale (o alto-italiana):
area gallo-italica
area veneta
area istriana (dialetti istrioti)
[Linea «La Spezia-Rimini»]
Macroarea toscana (o di tipo toscano, o centrale non mediana)
[Linea «Roma-Ancona»]
Macroarea italiana centro-meridionale:
area mediana
area meridionale (o alto-meridionale, o meridionale-intermedia)
Macroarea italiana meridionale estrema


Altre lingue italo-romanze: sardo, friulano, ladino

Another important line of demarcation should be the one between the Gallo-Italic and the area veneta but both are included in the Macroarea italiana settentrionale.

Thanks for these, Pax Augusta,

I'm not a linguist, but from just listening to these people speak, the different demarcation lines in Massa Carrara and the La Spezia area make absolute sense to me. Vezzano Ligure (my maternal grandfather's area) is definitely north and west of all those lines, as is Pontremoli. The area where line 1 terminates looks to be pretty close to the ancestral villages of my mother's mother. Line 3, more in the black and white version than the colored one tracks the Magra River for part of the way, with the accents to the west being less influenced by Tuscan.* It's always been and is still extraordinary to me that there could be such a difference across a river that in the height of summer is often mostly dry and thus you can walk to the other side. However, even into my father's time if not my mother's (he was much older) to cross the river from where I was born was impossible for most of the year. You had to go far up or down river to reach a bridge. Interestingly, in Roman times there was a large bridge there. Lines 2,4,6 and 7 are in the Garfagnana, which definitely sounds more Tuscan to me, and the Fivizzano of Bonomi is under their influence.

*I don't have the link handy, but the division around this area is much earlier even than Diocletian's administrative reforms. Even in the earliest times the Magra served as a boundary (a secondary one after the Arno) between the "Etruschi" and the Celti-Liguri. For example, although the Etruschi were not far, no settlements have been found in the Lungiana, just trade goods, and, interestingly, some written Etruscan on some of our statue stele The earliest Roman administrators drew the administrative line nearby as well, at Luni at the mouth of the Magra.
 
I do agree with you.



Another example of transitional area between the Gallo-Italic and the Tuscan is the Alto Reno, divided into the Alto Reno Bolognese and the Alto Reno Pistoiese. Unfortunately this area is not yet well studied. Some amateur scholars use the term "Gallo-Toscano linguistic system" due to the fact that in some little villages Emilian and Tuscan are so mixed and it's indistinguishable if the main language spoken is the Emilian or the Tuscan. I'd be curious to know the opinion of some academics.

Besides the so-called linea La Spezia-Rimini (which some linguist renamed linea Massa-Senigallia, but the first name is still the most commonly used) there is another language border in Italy, the so-called linea Roma-Ancona, another line of demarcation marked by bundles of isoglosses.

nVUhHR4.jpg


JJQNQXY.jpg





009_Aree_linguistiche.jpg



Treccani:

Distinguiamo allora nel dominio italo-romanzo le seguenti macroaree (con le loro principali suddivisioni, fig. 1):


Macroarea italiana settentrionale (o alto-italiana):
area gallo-italica
area veneta
area istriana (dialetti istrioti)
[Linea «La Spezia-Rimini»]
Macroarea toscana (o di tipo toscano, o centrale non mediana)
[Linea «Roma-Ancona»]
Macroarea italiana centro-meridionale:
area mediana
area meridionale (o alto-meridionale, o meridionale-intermedia)
Macroarea italiana meridionale estrema


Altre lingue italo-romanze: sardo, friulano, ladino

Another important line of demarcation should be the one between the Gallo-Italic and the area veneta but both are included in the Macroarea italiana settentrionale.

a more exacting ( recent , 2 to 3 years old ) picture of the languages of the northern italian lands..............note even the cimbrian languages

The bergamo area , known as east-lombard has a very high concentration of venetian in it............most likely due to the 350 years of venetian control

http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/Mappe/LinguePadanesi.png
 

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