The Italian Language

Please,I see there are lots of Italians here,I know that this a delicate matter,but could you tell if you know how it was decided which dialect of Italic would be chosen as what is now known as Italian language?
Also,what language from Italy is most closed to Latin?
 
Italian wasn't artificially created by Dante. Many North Italians had an important role to make the Tuscan the main language of Italy: Pietro Bembo, Alessandro Manzoni and many others.

Pietro Bembo came from Venetian nobility and he was disowned by his family once he went to Rome and changed his thinking due for personnel gains in the clergy of Rome.

Italian wasn't really accepted by some of the poorest and uneducated people. Italian was already the language of the upper class of most of the preunitarian states with few exceptions.

Dante ONLY wrote Italian for the merchant and artisan class so that they could communicate and trade with each other ............he cared little for the peasants in what they spoke and he knew the nobility spoke to each other only in Latin.
This artistic change in Florence where Dante was , was so upsetting to the florentines that Dante had to flee Tuscany and settle in Ravenna or he would have been killed.

Even the Republic of Venice used for many centuries since the 1500 AD the Tuscan as language in the internal affairs: "Così, per es., le relazioni degli ambasciatori veneziani al Senato della Serenissima all’inizio del XVI secolo appaiono scritte in un volgare sostanzialmente toscano, cioè italiano, ma che conserva ancora elementi fonologici, morfologici e lessicali veneziani."

"La diffusione di una lingua letteraria di base toscana era cominciata già attorno alla fine del XIII secolo a Bologna; nel secolo successivo i principali poli di irradiazione furono le città del Veneto (Venezia, Treviso, Padova) e la corte dei Visconti a Milano. Nel 1332 il metricologo e poeta padovano Antonio da Tempo dichiara la lingua tusca, cioè il toscano, magis apta [...] ad literam sive literaturam quam aliae linguae «più adatta all’espressione scritta e alla letteratura delle altre lingue». Sempre nel Trecento, il modello fiorentino si diffonde anche in centri dell’Italia centrale e meridionale come Perugia e Napoli. Il processo di unificazione della lingua letteraria, anzitutto poetica, procede – anche se con esitazioni e regressioni – nel Quattrocento, accelerando alla fine del secolo, grazie soprattutto all’affermarsi del petrarchismo.
Più tarda è l’adozione del toscano nella lingua amministrativa. La prima corte che adotta il fiorentino trecentesco come modello, oltre che nella letteratura, anche nella prassi cancelleresca, è quella di Ludovico il Moro, signore di Milano tra il 1480 e il 1499 (Vitale 1988).

Le lingue in uso nelle corti d’Italia tra Quattrocento e Cinquecento avevano abbandonato i tratti dialettali più evidenti, ma facevano pur sempre concessioni nella fonetica e nella morfologia ai volgari locali. Il successo della proposta arcaizzante di ➔ Pietro Bembo, che appoggiava la lingua letteraria all’uso degli autori fiorentini del Trecento, soprattutto ➔ Francesco Petrarca e ➔ Giovanni Boccaccio, spezza il filo che le lingue cortigiane mantenevano con la lingua parlata, e dunque anche con i volgari locali.
Nell’ambito cancelleresco, amministrativo, giuridico, ecc., l’uso dell’italiano-fiorentino restava basato su conoscenze approssimative e condizionato dal volgare locale più a lungo di quanto accada nella lingua letteraria. Così, per es., le relazioni degli ambasciatori veneziani al Senato della Serenissima all’inizio del XVI secolo appaiono scritte in un volgare sostanzialmente toscano, cioè italiano, ma che conserva ancora elementi fonologici, morfologici e lessicali veneziani. Questo genere di lingua è chiamata spesso tosco-veneto. Nei decenni successivi i tratti locali vennero progressivamente abbandonati, e si giunse entro la fine del secolo a una pressoché completa toscanizzazione (Durante 1981: 163-164; Tomasin 2001: 158-164). L’adozione del modello toscano nel secondo Cinquecento e nel Seicento è un fenomeno che riguarda più in generale la lingua degli scriventi colti di tutta Italia. Da questo termine in avanti solo le scritture dei semicolti (➔ italiano popolare) presentano fenomeni di ibridismo tra la norma scritta nazionale, l’italiano, e la lingua parlata locale, il dialetto (Bartoli Langeli 2000). "


Source:
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/volgari-medievali_(Enciclopedia-dell'Italiano)/

I will comment on this later after I read it.

But , 500 years of italian until 1861 produced only 500000 people who knew or spoke the language says it all. it says , Italian was not lengua materna ( mother tongue , from the people , the community ), but a lengua paterna .............not used by many

Northern Italian Pomo and French Pom both derives from Latin pomum, generic term for a fruit. In Sicilian there is pumu, in Italian/Tuscan there is pomo (just as in Gallo-Italic and Venetian) but considered obsolete in Tuscany.

Giovanni Boccaccio (medieval Tuscan writer) from The Decameron

«nell'un di questi forzieri è la mia corona, la verga reale e 'l pomo »


But you fail to answer why the word apple, in Italian is Mela and not pomo



"dì" is Italian/Tuscan of Latin origin (Latin dies), not northern Italian only. If you were Italian, you'd know it.

buon dì (or buondì) and buongiorno are both Italian. Buondì is still used today in many regions of Italy, not only in North Italy.

http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/di/


Giovanni Boccaccio (medieval Tuscan writer) from The Decameron

«Io son veramente colui che quell'uomo uccisi istamane in sul di" »



The correct terminology is never giorno for day. the correct phases for a day are

notte - night
nottorda - daybreak
mattina - morning
mesodi - midday
giorno - afternoon ..............with mesogiorno - mid afternnoon sometimes included
sera - evening
notte - night
 
@Angela
offtopic:
When you will explain to me how Romanian got postponed definite article,how is using Subject verb Object and other things like that,I would believe Romanian is derived from Latin. Till than,I do not .
Ontopic:
However,this topic is about Italian language,maybe you and other Italian native speakers can post at least a short history of Italian language,since from what I am seeing,from your posts and other Italians posts here,Italian is derived from some Italic dialect.
I would be curious,what is the most closed dialect to Italian,Umbrian?
As for that study,I do not agree with it,from what I have heard a little sicilian,there are common words to Italian.
So I find it very very hard to believe that Italian and Sicilian have 0% oral mutual inteligibility ,I think that is a very absurd afirmation.
I have seen on another forum or so that Italian and French have like 75% mutual inteligibility.

Italian is derived by artificial means by Dante , who went around all of Italy gathering information on the regional languages spoken at the time, then writing a book on what was good and bad of every regional language he encountered...and then after 10 years trying to create "Italian" language using some words from this region, some words from that region and also fabricating some words.
Which is why after 500 years of use, only 500000 people knew anything about it
 
Italian is derived by artificial means by Dante , who went around all of Italy gathering information on the regional languages spoken at the time, then writing a book on what was good and bad of every regional language he encountered...and then after 10 years trying to create "Italian" language using some words from this region, some words from that region and also fabricating some words.
Which is why after 500 years of use, only 500000 people knew anything about it

Well this is your version of seeing things.
I am seeing here a somehow different story:
http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa060699a.htm

EDIT:
offtopic:
Lol,I see some strong resemblances between Tuscan dialect and Romanian.
Example:
in Tuscan you are saying "I like it" :
a me mi piace
in Romanian
mie imi place



 
Well this is your version of seeing things.
I am seeing here a somehow different story:
http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa060699a.htm

EDIT:
offtopic:
Lol,I see some strong resemblances between Tuscan dialect and Romanian.
Example:
in Tuscan you are saying "I like it" :
a me mi piace
in Romanian
mie imi place




do you know how many dialects there are in Tuscany.....4 main ones............Lucchese dialect in Lucca and NW tuscany ...where my Auntie lives, Florentine dialect in Florence and the Pistoiese and Grossetano as the main other ones.............Italian dialect did not come from north Tuscany, but the Tuscany of Siena in the south.

The only reason , this Italian dialect was chosen as the language of italy was to appease the king and church...The King wanted Piemontese language to be the main italian language, the Church wanted Latin .....the compromise was Dante's Italian dialect.
 
do you know how many dialects there are in Tuscany.....4 main ones............Lucchese dialect in Lucca and NW tuscany ...where my Auntie lives, Florentine dialect in Florence and the Pistoiese and Grossetano as the main other ones.............Italian dialect did not come from north Tuscany, but the Tuscany of Siena in the south.

The only reason , this Italian dialect was chosen as the language of italy was to appease the king and church...The King wanted Piemontese language to be the main italian language, the Church wanted Latin .....the compromise was Dante's Italian dialect.

Are you claiming that Dante, a Florentine, used the Sienese dialect as the basis of his language? Sources please.
 
Are you claiming that Dante, a Florentine, used the Sienese dialect as the basis of his language? Sources please.

No , I am not claiming this
I state, Dante creating this early Italian dialect from the regional languages which where already in use for centuries upon centuries, the Florentine dialect cannot pronounce the letter C as we know it ( still to this day ).................Pietro Bembo and others centuries later tried to perfect this early Dante Italian dialect.
The 1861 census showed that only in southern Tuscany was the bulk users of this Dante and later Bembo and others dialect called Italian.

The letters of Dante explaining these issues are still held by his family today..........wine growers near Verona. They are also the same family that 2 years ago refused the Florence community permission to move Dante's body from Ravenna to Florence. ..........part of Dante's wishes to not be buried in Florence.
 
No , I am not claiming this
I state, Dante creating this early Italian dialect from the regional languages which where already in use for centuries upon centuries, the Florentine dialect cannot pronounce the letter C as we know it ( still to this day ).................Pietro Bembo and others centuries later tried to perfect this early Dante Italian dialect.
The 1861 census showed that only in southern Tuscany was the bulk users of this Dante and later Bembo and others dialect called Italian.

The letters of Dante explaining these issues are still held by his family today..........wine growers near Verona. They are also the same family that 2 years ago refused the Florence community permission to move Dante's body from Ravenna to Florence. ..........part of Dante's wishes to not be buried in Florence.

Excuse me, but you did in fact clearly state that ".Italian dialect did not come from north Tuscany, but the Tuscany of Siena in the south." That statement was incorrect, which you now seem to concede.

The variants of Italian which could be called "dialetti toscani" are irrelevant to the point that was under discussion, which was the development or evolution of standard Italian. If for some reason you are interested in the subject of the "Tuscan" dialects, the Wiki article isn't bad, in my opinion, although I might quibble on whether some variants spoken in some areas of the Lunigiana are indeed "Tuscan".
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_toscano
 
Excuse me, but you did in fact clearly state that ".Italian dialect did not come from north Tuscany, but the Tuscany of Siena in the south." That statement was incorrect, which you now seem to concede.

The variants of Italian which could be called "dialetti toscani" are irrelevant to the point that was under discussion, which was the development or evolution of standard Italian. If for some reason you are interested in the subject of the "Tuscan" dialects, the Wiki article isn't bad, in my opinion, although I might quibble on whether some variants spoken in some areas of the Lunigiana are indeed "Tuscan".
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_toscano

I stated or tried to state, Dante a florentine created his italian in Florence and was rejected by the populace over time and why he fled Florence. The Dante version modified by Pietro Bembo and others came into southern Tuscany via Rome ...........Toscano co lengua Romana
Pietro Bembo and others kept alive Dante Italian with modifications and additions to this dialect. We even see complete word changes from what Dante wrote to what was changed a century or more later ...............the word Bordelo comes to mind, with Dante using it as per the Venetian form meaning uproar and noisy to someone changing it later to the Sicilian word for a brothel .................Bordelo still mean noisy in Venetian with Caxin being a brothel ................anyway, there are many words used by Dante's original Italian dialect which was modified/changed over time to incorporate a more Neapolitan/Sicilian flavour

I have no idea on how successful Dante was to use his Italian dialect for the merchant and artisan classes. But I doubt it had much success.
What saved Dante's Italian was the decision/compromise between King and Church in the 1861 first Republic of Italy
 
I stated or tried to state, Dante a florentine created his italian in Florence and was rejected by the populace over time and why he fled Florence. The Dante version modified by Pietro Bembo and others came into southern Tuscany via Rome ...........Toscano co lengua Romana
Pietro Bembo and others kept alive Dante Italian with modifications and additions to this dialect. We even see complete word changes from what Dante wrote to what was changed a century or more later ...............the word Bordelo comes to mind, with Dante using it as per the Venetian form meaning uproar and noisy to someone changing it later to the Sicilian word for a brothel .................Bordelo still mean noisy in Venetian with Caxin being a brothel ................anyway, there are many words used by Dante's original Italian dialect which was modified/changed over time to incorporate a more Neapolitan/Sicilian flavour

I have no idea on how successful Dante was to use his Italian dialect for the merchant and artisan classes. But I doubt it had much success.
What saved Dante's Italian was the decision/compromise between King and Church in the 1861 first Republic of Italy

Please provide precise citations for the fact that Dante fled Florence because the populace rejected the Italian of his writings.

Please provide precise citations for the fact that the "The Dante version modified by Pietro Bembo and others came into southern Tuscany via Rome."

By the phrase "Toscano co lengua Romana" are you attempting to express the fact that there is a proverb to the effect that Italian is "Tuscan in a Roman mouth"? (This is the problem with trying to communicate with a dialect not spoken by the other party.)

I think you may be confused about some of these matters through not having learned standard Italian in school, or perhaps not having studied the history of Italian. That phrase has absolutely nothing to do with any back migration of modified Tuscan back into Tuscany by way of Rome, for which, as I said, I would at any rate like to see a source.

This is the explanation for that phrase:
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/italiano-di-roma_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/
"La prossimità della varietà romana alta con lo standard, in passato considerata maggiore perfino di quella della varietà toscana per l’assenza della gorgia (➔ gorgia toscana), è stata consegnata all’espressione lingua toscana in bocca romana (➔ norma linguistica) ed è uno dei motivi per cui durante il fascismo il modello scelto per la pronuncia radiofonica (➔ fascismo, lingua del; ➔ radio e lingua) fu quello dell’«asse linguistico Roma-Firenze», con preferenza per «la bella e calda pronunzia romana» (Bertoni & Ugolini 1939: 27) nei casi, relativamente ridotti, di divergenza. La contiguità col dialetto è dovuta invece alla storia linguistica di Roma (De Mauro 1989; Trifone 2008): il romanesco medievale (giudicato negativamente da ➔ Dante) era un volgare di tipo meridionale, ma subì in epoca rinascimentale – e soprattutto dopo il sacco del 1527, in seguito a immigrazioni dall’Italia centrale – una profonda toscanizzazione (che peraltro non impedì la persistenza di una valutazione negativa, che si coglie sia nella definizione datane da Giuseppe Gioacchino Belli di «lingua abietta e buffona», propria esclusivamente delle classi popolari, sia nella denominazione, affidata a suffissi ‘peggiorativi’: non romano, ma romanesco o, più di recente, romanaccio)."

The language spoken by the Roman upper classes, which was very close to standard Italian, and, in particular, the pronunciation of these people, was preferred by many over that of the Tuscans themselves because it was felt that the "gorgia" toscana was ugly. (Tuscan variants include a strong aspiration before the letter c when it appears before a, o, or u, making cavallo sound like havallo, for example. ) Aesthetic concerns have always been important in the development of Italian. I also consider it ugly and am happy that this pronunciation habit did not make its way into my area of the Lunigiana along with Tuscan administrators.

For this reason, the Roman pronunciation of Tuscan/standard Italian was chosen during the Fascist era for radio transmissions. It was also used for early cinema and for television. That was the accent that middle and upper class people of that time aspired to use and which they taught to their children, at least in my part of Italy. Today, "posh" Italian sounds more Milanese influenced to me, which is unfortunate because I think that pronunciation too is ugly.

Of course Italian changed over time. What else would you expect? That has nothing to do with where and how it first developed, nor with which dialects of Italian are closest to the original language of Dante, Boccaccio and Petrarca.

As to the use of the antecedent of standard Italian through time, an Italian source was provided to you. Perhaps, knowing only your Veneto dialect, it was unclear?

Perhaps you would do better with English language sources.

This is one which I can recommend. It might help. It is called:"A Linguistic History of Italian" by Martin Maiden, a professor at Cambridge University.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3336830-a-linguistic-history-of-italian

Some excerpts can be found here.
https://books.google.com/books?id=D...QTT9oHIAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Given that a seminal work on Italian linguistics was written by a German, Gerhard Rohlfs, I hardly think Maiden's nationality should disqualify him, but I would be interested in the opinions of PaxAugusta and Hauteville as to how it correlates with what is more recently taught in Italy about Italian linguistics if they happen to take a look at Chapter 2/1 in those excerpts. It's been a long time since I studied Italian in school.
https://books.google.com/books?id=a...a=X&ei=WNAuVbS7KOzIsATYlYDwDg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA
 
I am certain that Dante was driven out of Florence for POLITICAL reasons.

Though a Guelf, he was accused of being Ghibelline.
 
I am certain that Dante was driven out of Florence for POLITICAL reasons.

Though a Guelf, he was accused of being Ghibelline.

It was more like a rhetorical question. :)
 
This artistic change in Florence where Dante was , was so upsetting to the florentines that Dante had to flee Tuscany and settle in Ravenna or he would have been killed.

I answer only on this at the moment. On the rest in the next few days.

Dante was a politician not only a poet. Dante was a White Guelph and this is the only reason for his exile. Black Guelphs had seized power in Florence and sentenced him to exile along with some Florentine Ghibelline families. Politically White Guelphs were intermediate between Black Guelphs and Ghibellines and in some cases more shifted towards the latter.
 
Please provide precise citations for the fact that Dante fled Florence because the populace rejected the Italian of his writings.

Please provide precise citations for the fact that the "The Dante version modified by Pietro Bembo and others came into southern Tuscany via Rome."

By the phrase "Toscano co lengua Romana" are you attempting to express the fact that there is a proverb to the effect that Italian is "Tuscan in a Roman mouth"? (This is the problem with trying to communicate with a dialect not spoken by the other party.)

I think you may be confused about some of these matters through not having learned standard Italian in school, or perhaps not having studied the history of Italian. That phrase has absolutely nothing to do with any back migration of modified Tuscan back into Tuscany by way of Rome, for which, as I said, I would at any rate like to see a source.

This is the explanation for that phrase:
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/italiano-di-roma_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/
"La prossimità della varietà romana alta con lo standard, in passato considerata maggiore perfino di quella della varietà toscana per l’assenza della gorgia (➔ gorgia toscana), è stata consegnata all’espressione lingua toscana in bocca romana (➔ norma linguistica) ed è uno dei motivi per cui durante il fascismo il modello scelto per la pronuncia radiofonica (➔ fascismo, lingua del; ➔ radio e lingua) fu quello dell’«asse linguistico Roma-Firenze», con preferenza per «la bella e calda pronunzia romana» (Bertoni & Ugolini 1939: 27) nei casi, relativamente ridotti, di divergenza. La contiguità col dialetto è dovuta invece alla storia linguistica di Roma (De Mauro 1989; Trifone 2008): il romanesco medievale (giudicato negativamente da ➔ Dante) era un volgare di tipo meridionale, ma subì in epoca rinascimentale – e soprattutto dopo il sacco del 1527, in seguito a immigrazioni dall’Italia centrale – una profonda toscanizzazione (che peraltro non impedì la persistenza di una valutazione negativa, che si coglie sia nella definizione datane da Giuseppe Gioacchino Belli di «lingua abietta e buffona», propria esclusivamente delle classi popolari, sia nella denominazione, affidata a suffissi ‘peggiorativi’: non romano, ma romanesco o, più di recente, romanaccio)."

The language spoken by the Roman upper classes, which was very close to standard Italian, and, in particular, the pronunciation of these people, was preferred by many over that of the Tuscans themselves because it was felt that the "gorgia" toscana was ugly. (Tuscan variants include a strong aspiration before the letter c when it appears before a, o, or u, making cavallo sound like havallo, for example. ) Aesthetic concerns have always been important in the development of Italian. I also consider it ugly and am happy that this pronunciation habit did not make its way into my area of the Lunigiana along with Tuscan administrators.

For this reason, the Roman pronunciation of Tuscan/standard Italian was chosen during the Fascist era for radio transmissions. It was also used for early cinema and for television. That was the accent that middle and upper class people of that time aspired to use and which they taught to their children, at least in my part of Italy. Today, "posh" Italian sounds more Milanese influenced to me, which is unfortunate because I think that pronunciation too is ugly.

Of course Italian changed over time. What else would you expect? That has nothing to do with where and how it first developed, nor with which dialects of Italian are closest to the original language of Dante, Boccaccio and Petrarca.

As to the use of the antecedent of standard Italian through time, an Italian source was provided to you. Perhaps, knowing only your Veneto dialect, it was unclear?

Perhaps you would do better with English language sources.

This is one which I can recommend. It might help. It is called:"A Linguistic History of Italian" by Martin Maiden, a professor at Cambridge University.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3336830-a-linguistic-history-of-italian

Some excerpts can be found here.
https://books.google.com/books?id=D...QTT9oHIAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Given that a seminal work on Italian linguistics was written by a German, Gerhard Rohlfs, I hardly think Maiden's nationality should disqualify him, but I would be interested in the opinions of PaxAugusta and Hauteville as to how it correlates with what is more recently taught in Italy about Italian linguistics if they happen to take a look at Chapter 2/1 in those excerpts. It's been a long time since I studied Italian in school.
https://books.google.com/books?id=a...a=X&ei=WNAuVbS7KOzIsATYlYDwDg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA

firstly I do not follow Treccani and their nationalistic support by the government who dictates what they can say.............basically I never follow any italian site.

next, The Maiden book does not know what he is talking about and even states Udine with Friulian is in NORTHWEST ITALY.

next...I cannot load

and last one is a summary of the book which I cannot open



Can you tell me where the following words came from when they are not used in gaalo-italic nor tuscan languages

Mela
Mucca
Maiale
Giorno

I will give you more later

Also, the proper word for hello in Italian is salve and not ciao as per the link you stated , ciao is the venetian form.
 
firstly I do not follow Treccani and their nationalistic support by the government who dictates what they can say.............basically I never follow any italian site.

next, The Maiden book does not know what he is talking about and even states Udine with Friulian is in NORTHWEST ITALY.

next...I cannot load

and last one is a summary of the book which I cannot open



Can you tell me where the following words came from when they are not used in gaalo-italic nor tuscan languages

Mela
Mucca
Maiale
Giorno

I will give you more later

Also, the proper word for hello in Italian is salve and not ciao as per the link you stated , ciao is the venetian form.

I take it then that you have no sources to offer for the proposition that Dante was chased out of Florence because they didn't like his new brand of "Italian"?

I also take it that you feel that treccani.it, which is an arm of the Italian Encyclopedia, is somehow a disreputable source for the meaning of Italian proverbs? Perhaps you would therefore care to provide a link to a text on Italian linguistics, written by anyone, that supports your novel interpretation of the phrase, "lingua toscana in bocca romana"? Should you be unable to provide such a source, I'm afraid most readers might not give your interpretation much credence.

As to more general issues involving the evolution of standard Italian and its internal structure, I provided you with a link to a text written by a British Cambridge University linguist because you could hardly claim that he is a rabid Italian nationalist, and also because it seemed to me from your quote and from information you have posted that you only learned the Veneto dialect and so might have difficulty reading standard Italian texts. (I apologize if I got that wrong.) Now you say you refuse to find any of his work authoritative because you found a typo in the text?

As to Gerhard Rohlfs text, it may very well be seen as dated now, but I am constrained by the fact that you claim not to accept the authority of Italian linguists as to the development of the Italian language.

On this page you will find links to various digitized pdf versions of his book...all in Italian translation from the German. Unfortunately, you will be required to get access by signing in.
https://www.google.it/?gws_rd=ssl#q...liana+e+dei+suoi+dialetti+pdf&revid=764404373

Perhaps, though, we should approach it from another angle. Please provide page references in a recognized text on the Italian language, by non Italians if you insist, although that seems rather strange, which support your interpretations.
 
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I take it then that you have no sources to offer for the proposition that Dante was chased out of Florence because they didn't like his new brand of "Italian"?

I also take it that you feel that treccani.it, which is an arm of the Italian Encyclopedia, is somehow a disreputable source for the meaning of Italian proverbs? Perhaps you would therefore care to provide a link to a text on Italian linguistics, written by anyone, that supports your novel interpretation of the phrase, "lingua toscana in bocca romana"? Should you be unable to provide such a source, I'm afraid most readers might not give your interpretation much credence.

As to more general issues involving the evolution of standard Italian and its internal structure, I provided you with a link to a text written by a British Cambridge University linguist because you could hardly claim that he is a rabid Italian nationalist, and also because it seemed to me from your quote and from information you have posted that you only learned the Veneto dialect and so might have difficulty reading standard Italian texts. (I apologize if I got that wrong.) Now you say you refuse to find any of his work authoritative because you found a typo in the text?

As to Gerhard Rohlfs text, it may very well be seen as dated now, but I am constrained by the fact that you claim not to accept the authority of Italian linguists as to the development of the Italian language.

On this page you will find links to various digitized pdf versions of his book...all in Italian translation from the German. Unfortunately, you will be required to get access by signing in.
https://www.google.it/?gws_rd=ssl#q...liana+e+dei+suoi+dialetti+pdf&revid=764404373

Perhaps, though, we should approach it from another angle. Please provide page references in a recognized text on the Italian language, by non Italians if you insist, although that seems rather strange, which support your interpretations.



the term, Toscano co lengua Romano .............was due to the comment Dante stated about the Roman dialect, .............the later modifiers of Dante's Italian dialect tried to clear up this Dante comment by making the changes of the Italian dialect from Rome,


I state that Italian scholars are not inferior to English Scholars, but state a nationalistic bias is supported for their papers. If in Italy, one does not conform with what the nation wants the populace to learn in school, then it will not go ahead.
 
I take it then that you have no sources to offer for the proposition that Dante was chased out of Florence because they didn't like his new brand of "Italian"?

I also take it that you feel that treccani.it, which is an arm of the Italian Encyclopedia, is somehow a disreputable source for the meaning of Italian proverbs? Perhaps you would therefore care to provide a link to a text on Italian linguistics, written by anyone, that supports your novel interpretation of the phrase, "lingua toscana in bocca romana"? Should you be unable to provide such a source, I'm afraid most readers might not give your interpretation much credence.

As to more general issues involving the evolution of standard Italian and its internal structure, I provided you with a link to a text written by a British Cambridge University linguist because you could hardly claim that he is a rabid Italian nationalist, and also because it seemed to me from your quote and from information you have posted that you only learned the Veneto dialect and so might have difficulty reading standard Italian texts. (I apologize if I got that wrong.) Now you say you refuse to find any of his work authoritative because you found a typo in the text?

As to Gerhard Rohlfs text, it may very well be seen as dated now, but I am constrained by the fact that you claim not to accept the authority of Italian linguists as to the development of the Italian language.

On this page you will find links to various digitized pdf versions of his book...all in Italian translation from the German. Unfortunately, you will be required to get access by signing in.
https://www.google.it/?gws_rd=ssl#q...liana+e+dei+suoi+dialetti+pdf&revid=764404373

Perhaps, though, we should approach it from another angle. Please provide page references in a recognized text on the Italian language, by non Italians if you insist, although that seems rather strange, which support your interpretations.

You cannot argue with someone who ignores valid sources.
 
Your short source also mentions the Florentine origin of Italian.
 

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