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Thread: Ydna "J2" found in Merovingian era graves in the Netherlands

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    4 members found this post helpful.

    Ydna "J2" found in Merovingian era graves in the Netherlands

    This is a link to the post on a blog page devoted to J2-172:
    http://j2-m172.info/2015/04/three-j2-found-at-merovingian-buriel-site-roman-frankish-transitional-period/

    This is the actual paper:


    Het Merovingisch grafveld, in: R.C.G.M. Lauwerier & J.W. De Kort 2014: Merovingers in een villa 2. Romeinse villa en Merovingisch grafveld Borgharen – Pasestraat. Onderzoek 2012. Amersfoort (Rapportage Archeologische Monumentenzorg 222), 211-220.

    The following is based on someone's translation of the paper into English:
    "The people found was buried at a Merovingian buriel site in Borgharen in the Dutch province of Limburg, they were wealthy and buried with locals. Artifacts found in the graves are consistent with the Roman-Frankish transitional period. Late Roman to early Middle Ages.
    Individual N15 J2a1b-M67 99%. Individual N20 J2b-M102 100% (probably M241). N18 possibly is J2a(a1b1-M92) when comparing to Ysearch database (done by Irakli)"

    This is another snippet of translation:

    “The grave-field located at the Pasestraat Borgharen is situated on the location of the main building of a Roman villa. The choice of this location can be considered meaningful, for example as part of a strategy to put claims on the land through a claim on the living-space of the previous inhabitants. who could be considered as ancestors.”

    “There is a clear distinction between the 2 different grave-fields: the individuals from Daalderveld are all of non local origin. At the gravesite of the Pasestraat (were they find the J2 results) only 4 individuals are of non local origin, but possibly come from the same geological/geographical area. The last isn’t the case at Daalderveld: here the individuals hail from different geological areas, were some ratios until today are not found within the Netherlands. The results of the origin of the horses also yielded interesting results: one of the animals is also of non local origins and has arrived at Borgharen by trade or migration.”

    “The objects who were given with the dead indicate that the grave-field was in use in the 6th and 7th centuries.”

    “During the construction of the graves it seems the builders took into account the remaining Roman remains. To which extent this happened and what underlying considerations were responsible for this is not clear.”

    “The combination of pottery material and the painted plaster places the use of the villa in the 2nd century.”

    "Clues to their origins are the artifacts found in the graves: late Roman early Merovingian pottery, Venus Aphrodite hangers, Avar like horse equipment that seems to be found in Europe along the Danube and Rhine, a lot of weaponry, Roman/Byzantine glass beads comparable to modern day Turkish ones, seashells from the Mediterranean, Red Sea and Indian ocean used for Apopopraeon.

    Various opinions have been put forth: Avars, Romans or Romans absorbed by the Merovingians, Thracians in the service of Rome etc.

    Any ideas here? Perhaps someone else proficient in Dutch could have a look at it or even contact the researchers for some more clarity.



    I can't put my hand on it at the moment, but I think there was a G2a? Merovingian warrior found as well, and then there's all the speculation that the French royal line is G2.(although this latter may be controversial now) I'm not sure what to make of it all.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-04-15 at 03:32.


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    Looking at the frequency of J2 in Uralic and Caucasic Speakers, there is no doubt this Haplogroup was part of the Indo European expansion.

    But here we have another bunch of J2 lineages found among Romans/Roman descends and their legions. It is undeniable that J2 was a significant part of the Roman ethnogenesis. Why not? If recent studies are right and the Italic language came directly from Creta. It could also be from Thracians or someone else working for the Roman legions.
    Last edited by Alan; 16-04-15 at 23:48.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Two J2a and one J2b in Limburg. There is a much higher chance that these are Roman rather than Frankish.
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    The map on page 121 states.,............. Avar burials, red is 6th century , yellow is 7th century ....................but they are stating arms and armour found in the graves
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The map on page 121 states.,............. Avar burials, red is 6th century , yellow is 7th century ....................but they are stating arms and armour found in the graves
    As far as I have understand some had Avar like Horse equipment. It doesn't necessary mean it was an Avar. It could be from material exchange with Steppe folks. It could also be (more likely) Sarmatian than Avar. Since Avar and Sarmatians should have similar horse equipment.

    But than they also had cultural equipment frm other parts of the world inside it. Such as from Red Sea and Anatolia.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    This find, in Borgharen, is in walking distance of Maastricht. Maastricht was a known Roman city that during the invasion/resettlement of the Franks below the Rhine could have functioned as a refuge for roman citizens. The patron saint of Maastricht is St. Servatius, who fled from Tongeren to Maastricht during that time. Their are Christian graves found from the earliest Frankish time on, which may serve as evidence for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    This find, in Borgharen, is in walking distance of Maastricht. Maastricht was a known Roman city that during the invasion/resettlement of the Franks below the Rhine could have functioned as a refuge for roman citizens. The patron saint of Maastricht is St. Servatius, who fled from Tongeren to Maastricht during that time. Their are Christian graves found from the earliest Frankish time on, which may serve as evidence for that.
    That's certainly another clue. As I mentioned upthread, I think it's suggestive that they chose to be buried atop a Roman villa too. What do you make of the fact that they had Avar "like" weaponry, however? It could be, I suppose, that it was a type of Danubian weaponry in common use at the time. I wonder if they had been absorbed by the emerging Merovingian elite? There are some indications in Italy of some Romans being absorbed by the Goths. I should dig out the citation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's certainly another clue. As I mentioned upthread, I think it's suggestive that they chose to be buried atop a Roman villa too. What do you make of the fact that they had Avar "like" weaponry, however? It could be, I suppose, that it was a type of Danubian weaponry in common use at the time. I wonder if they had been absorbed by the emerging Merovingian elite? There are some indications in Italy of some Romans being absorbed by the Goths. I should dig out the citation.
    Hm. There were finds in the Alamannian areas with similar claims. I have a book on it, can't find any reference on the BBI (big bad internets)..

    The graves next to this find (the Borghagen) contained freshly killed young horses. That indicates heathen burial, even after Clovis' baptism. OTOH, the area remained largely heathen well into the merovingian age and possibly into the Carolingian age (Source: Heard from a local archeologist).

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Hm. There were finds in the Alamannian areas with similar claims. I have a book on it, can't find any reference on the BBI (big bad internets)..

    The graves next to this find (the Borghagen) contained freshly killed young horses. That indicates heathen burial, even after Clovis' baptism. OTOH, the area remained largely heathen well into the merovingian age and possibly into the Carolingian age (Source: Heard from a local archeologist).

    The name of the site just popped into my mind...Ergolding...Bavaria....another high status Merovingian burial with unexpected ydna results...G2.

    Vanek et al 2009

    According to Ray Banks, the marker values are suggestive of the L13 subgroup.

    G2 keeps popping up in modern contexts where it isn't expected, doesn't it? This one, the disputed connection to the French royal line, Richard II...

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Three J2 found at Merovingian buriel site in Borgharen, Dutch province of Limbur

    Three J2 found at Merovingian buriel site (Roman-Frankish transitional period)

    "The grave-field located at the Pasestraat Borgharen is situated on the location of the main building of a Roman villa. The choice of this location can be considered meaningful, for example as part of a strategy to put claims on the land through a claim on the living-space of the previous inhabitants. who could be considered as ancestors.”
    “There is a clear distinction between the 2 different grave-fields: the individuals from Daalderveld are all of non local origin. At the gravesite of the Pasestraat (were they find the J2 results) only 4 individuals are of non local origin, but possibly come from the same geological/geographical area. The last isn’t the case at Daalderveld: here the individuals hail from different geological areas, were some ratios until today are not found within the Netherlands. The results of the origin of the horses also yielded interesting results: one of the animals is also of non local origins and has arrived at Borgharen by trade or migration.”
    “The objects who were given with the dead indicate that the grave-field was in use in the 6th and 7th centuries.”
    “During the construction of the graves it seems the builders took into account the remaining Roman remains. To which extent this happened and what underlying considerations were responsible for this is not clear.”
    “The combination of pottery material and the painted plaster places the use of the villa in the 2nd century.”
    “In addition, we attempted to characterize the Y haplogroup for all (possible) male individuals, including the previous study. This was only possible for individuals 15 and 20, for who haplogroup J2 could be granted. With our method J2 can not be further subdivided. For individual 15 haplogroup J2a1 is predicted in the previous investigation on the basis of the Y-STR profile. Meanwhile, it can be refined to J2a1b (99% probability). For individual 20, based on the Y-STR profile haplogroup J2b is predicted (100% probability). In both cases the predicted haplogroups confirm typed haplogroups. Y-haplogroup J2 is carried by 2.7% of Dutch men and is relatively rare in the Netherlands.”
    “Particular results have been found with the father and daughter (individuals 15 and 14). Individual 15, the father with a very rare Y chromosome haplotype is of non-local origin (87Sr / 86Sr: 0.7099). He also is probably coming from the Dutch dekzandgebieden. The J haplogroup suggests that the family line originates even beyond western Europe. The 87Sr / 86Sr ratio of his daughter is, however, compatible with the local signal."


    http://j2-m172.info/2015/04/three-j2...tional-period/


    Het Merovingisch grafveld, in: R.C.G.M. Lauwerier & J.W. De Kort 2014: Merovingers in een villa 2. Romeinse villa en Merovingisch grafveld Borgharen - Pasestraat. Onderzoek 2012. Amersfoort (Rapportage Archeologische Monumentenzorg 222), 211-220.


    https://www.academia.edu/10159018/He...rg_222_211-220

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    J2b and J2a1 Found in Roman Villa and Merovingian Graves Research.

    "In addition, we attempted to characterize the Y haplogroupfor all (possible) male individuals, including the previous study. This was only possible for individuals 15 and 20, for who haplogroup J2 could be granted. With our method J2 can not be further subdivided. For individual 15 haplogroup J2a1 is predicted in the previous investigation on the basis of the Y-STR profile. Meanwhile, it can be refined to J2a1b (99% probability). For individual 20, based on the Y-STRprofiel haplogroup J2b is predicted (100% probability). In both cases the predicted haplogroups confirm typed haplogroups. Y-haplogroup J2 is carried by 2.7% of Dutch men and is relatively rare in the Netherlands."
    Cultureel Erfgoed - Merovingers in een Villa 2.
    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2


    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2


    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2

    Clues to their origins are the artifacts found in the graves. (late Roman early Merovngian pottery, Venus Aphrodite hangers, Avar like horse equipment that seems to be found in europe along the Danube and Rhine, allot of weaponry, Roman/Byzantine glass beads comparable tomodern day turkish ones, seashells from the mediteranean, red sea and indian ocean used for Apotropaeon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotropaic_magic) The paper also mentiones one site at Daalderveld and the one at Pasestraat. The first one seems to be a site for foreigner and the latter one seems to be a site for locals. The J2`s are found in the local area. The paper mentiones that these people including individual 15 (j2a1b) come from an area geographically similar to Southern Limburg and that ultimatly their familyline may go back to outide europe. But at the time they were consdered locals. They also mention that these people were from areas in the Netherlands know as "dekzand gebieden". They also found non local horse remains who were given a warriors grave/ending with a sword stab throgh the hearth. The earliest found artifact from the site rare from 3400 B.C to 2500 B.C, on top of that a Roman Villa was build, in the rubblefield of the Roman Villa the grave field was created. (5th-6th A.D). There is evidence that the site was continualy inhabited from the Roman Villa era to the grave field construction. After the Merovingian period in the Karolingian period they stopped using the site.

    Afdekken van een merovingisch grafveld. Rijksdienst voor het Cultureel Erfgoed.



    The researchers state that the positioning of the burial field right on the main building of the Roman complex is meaningfull, for instance to make a claim of ownership on the land (considered to be from their ancestors) through a claim of ancestry of the previous inhabitants. (in this case romans) The villa was probably build in/around the 2nd century AD. it probably belonged to the Vicus of Maastricht (Mosa ad Trajectum)


    Mosa ad Trajectum

    The Roman Research Project of Leuven University reported last month;

    "De allerhoogste genetische diversiteit vonden de onderzoekers in Tongeren. En dat heeft toch met Romeinse roots te maken, zij het meer praktisch: “Dankzij de goede wegen, de Romeinse heirbanen, had Tongeren veel contact met het Rijnland, Maastricht en Keulen.”"

    "The highest genetic diversity the researchers found was situated in Tongeren. And that has to do with the Roman Roots, the reason is practical: "Thanks to the good roads, the roman via`s, Tongeren had allot of contact with the Rhineland, Maastricht and Koln."

    Catholic University Leuven.
    http://nieuws.kuleuven.be/node/14793...n=CKFeb-alumni


    J2b2 Geno 2.0 Heatmap Comparison with Roman Settlements and Roads.

    "J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. [35] and Cruciani et al. [45], may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
    Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...802.1.full.pdf



    More here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...nd-Viticulture

    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome. .............. In contrast to many other Germanic tribes, no Merovingians claimed to be descended from Wodan. Instead, the sacred tradition of a cart pulled by bulls seems to be present from the early Merovingians on. The bulls that pulled the cart were taken as special animals, and according to Salian law the theft of those animals would impose a high sanction. In the grave of Childeric I (died 481) was found the head of a bull, craftily made out of gold.""
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology



    "The Quinotaur (Lat. Quinotaurus) is a mythical sea creature mentioned in the 7th century Frankish Chronicle of Fredegar. Referred to as "bestea Neptuni Quinotauri similis", (the beast of Neptune which resembles a Quinotaur) it was held to have fathered Meroveus by attacking the wife of the Frankish king Chlodio and thus to have sired the line of Merovingian kings. The name translates from Latin as "bull with five horns", whose attributes have commonly been interpreted as the incorporated symbols of the sea god Neptune with his trident, and the horns of a mythical bull or Minotaur. The suggested rape and subsequent family relation of this monster attributed to Frankish mythology correspond to both the Indo-European etymology of Neptune (from PIE '*nepots', "grandson" or "nephew", compare also the Indo-Aryan 'Apam Napat', "grandson/nephew of the water") and to bull-related fertility myths in Greek mythology, where for example the Phoenician princess Europa was abducted by the god Zeus, in the form of a white bull, that swam her to Crete."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinotaur

    More here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-Bull-Worship

    Trojan Origin Myth.



    "The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

    "Der niederrheinische Trojamythos schließt an die Schilderung Homers vom Ende des Trojanischen Krieges an. Das besagt, dass die von den Griechen besiegten Trojaner fliehen, und in mehreren Gruppen über Asien und Europa versprengt werden. Hier gründen sie neue Städte und werden zu Stammvätern neuer, ruhmreicher Völker. Die bis heute existente niederrheinische Variante des Trojamythos indes spiegelt die Gründungssage des Frankenreichs, die Origio francorum wider. Als Vorbild diente der römische Trojamythos, wie er in Vergils Aeneis überliefert ist."
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederr...er_Trojamythos

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asciburgium

    "The two earliest sources that describe the origin of the Franks are a 7th-century work known as the Chronicle of Fredegar and the anonymous Liber Historiae Francorum, written a century later. Neither of these works are accepted by historians as trustworthy, compared with Gregory of Tours's Historia Francorum, which was written in the 6th century. The author of the Chronicle of Fredegar claimed that the Franks came originally from Troy and quoted the works of Vergil and Hieronymous, but the Franks are not mentioned in those works, except in a general way by Hieronymous.[14] The chronicle describes Priam as a Frankish king whose people migrated to Macedonia after the fall of Troy. In Macedonia, the Franks then divided. The European Franks reached Francia under King Francio, just as Romulus went to Rome. Another branch, under King Turchot, became the Turks. Fredegar stated that Theudemer, named king of the Franks by Gregory, was descended from Priam, Friga and Francio. Another work, the Gesta, is nowadays acknowledged by serious scholars as a fantasy. Its author described how 12,000 Trojans, led by Priam and Antenor, sailed from Troy to the River Don in Russia and—with a total disregard of geography—to Pannonia, which is on the Danube, settling near the Sea of Azov. There they founded a city called Sicambria. The Trojans joined the Roman army in accomplishing the task of driving their enemies into the marshes of Mæotis, for which they received the name of Franks (meaning "savage"). A decade later the Romans killed Priam and drove away Marcomer and Sunno, the sons of Priam and Antenor, and the other Franks."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

    "An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called Sicambria. In just 2 generations from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age 1550-1200 BC) they arrived in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. A variation of this story can also be read in Fredegar, and similar tales continue to crop up repeatedly throughout obscure, mediaeval-era European literature. ... In Roman and Merovingian times, it was a custom to declare panegyrics. These poetic declarations were held for fun or propaganda to entertain guests and please rulers. Those panegyrics played an important role in the transmission of culture. One of the ritual customs of these poetic declarations is the use of archaic names for contemporary things. Romans were often called Trojans, and Salian Franks were called Sicambri."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicambri
    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-15 at 14:28.

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    Frankish Burial Scene. (comparable to the ones found at Borgharen)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXLyrmd34WI&t=0m44s !!!!

    An Item found in the merovingian graves in the Netherlands.

    http://oud.cultureelerfgoed.nl/opgraven-merovingisch-grafveld-borgharen

    Merovingers in een villa.
    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...ren-pasestraat

    Merovingers in een villa 2.
    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2

    Last edited by RHAS; 15-05-15 at 13:12.

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    "Het terrein met de restanten van de Romeinse villa Borgharen-Pasestraat bevindt zich op een hoger gelegen grindrug ten westen van de voormalige Pasestraat ten noorden van de dorpskern van Borgharen. Enkele honderden meters ten westen van het villaterrein stroomt de rivier de Maas; aan de oostzijde, op 3 à 4 km afstand, liep de Via Belgica, de belangrijke heirweg van Tongeren (Atuatuca Tungrorum) via Maastricht (Mosa Trajectum) naar Keulen (Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium). Bij de locatiekeuze zullen naast de aanwezigheid van vruchtbare löss- en rivierkleigronden, ook de ligging nabij een belangrijke doorgaande route en het ongetwijfeld fraaie uitzicht over de Maas een rol gespeeld hebben. In het Maasdal ten noorden van Maastricht zijn relatief weinig sporen van Romeinse villa's aangetroffen. Oostelijk van Borgharen liggen de dorpen Bunde en Meerssen, waar zich een drietal Romeinse villa's bevonden."
    Wikipeda.org - Romeinse villa Borgharen Pasestraat.
    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeins...ren-Pasestraat

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    The Roman Research Project of Leuven University reported last month;

    "De allerhoogste genetische diversiteit vonden de onderzoekers in Tongeren. En dat heeft toch met Romeinse roots te maken, zij het meer praktisch: “Dankzij de goede wegen, de Romeinse heirbanen, had Tongeren veel contact met het Rijnland, Maastricht en Keulen.”"

    "The highest genetic diversity the researchers found was situated in Tongeren. And that has to do with the Roman Roots, the reason is practical: "Thanks to the good roads, the roman via`s, Tongeren had allot of contact with the Rhineland, Maastricht and Koln."

    Catholic University Leuven.
    http://nieuws.kuleuven.be/node/14793...n=CKFeb-alumni


    J2b2 Geno 2.0 Heatmap Comparison with Roman Settlements and Roads.

    "J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. [35] and Cruciani et al. [45], may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
    Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...802.1.full.pdf

    http://home.kpn.nl/hstoepker/symposi...nse%20tijd.pdf

    Below a fragment from the Dutch Genealogical Research book "Sons of Adam" regarding J2 Y-DNA.

    "An old cluster of J2 was found who`s ancestors are believed to be Romain legionnairs who were stationed in Noviomagus Batavorum (Nijmegen). A cluster like this is also found near Hadrians wall in scotland."



    "De R1b-Nederlanders zijn waarschijnlijk vanuit het Iberisch schiereiland (Spanje/Portugal) in ons land terechtgekomen, terwijl haplogroep I Scandinavisch (Noormannen of Friezen?) bloed in de aderen heeft. Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
    Artikel/Boekrecensie "Zonen van Adam in Nederland", Eindhovens Dagblad dinsdag 03 februari 2009.



    J2 24 4.75 Mesopotamia, Phoenicians, Greeks, southern Italy (Romans)

    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-15 at 02:48.

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    if i understand well, the grave field is 5th-6th century
    are the skeletons of individuals 15 & 20 dated and are they the same age ?

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    We already have a thread dedicated to this topic...I will merge them.

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    "25 human graves and two horse graves have been identified. There may still be a few more graves on the site, but there are no plans for further excavations for the time being.
    - DNA research on the bone material has established that the human remains are related and belong to two families. Two skeletons for example correspond to a father and his daughter, two others to a mother and her son, and one the graves revealed the remains of a mother and two of her children.
    - Many of the graves contained valuable accessories such as precious jewelry items, costly weapons and rare pieces of earthware, indicating that the people buried in them were wealthy and may have enjoyed a high social status.
    - The discovery of cowry shells, originating from the Red Sea, further confirmed the prominent status of the deceased and showed that they were part of a well developed network of trade relations.
    - In one of the graves, the archeologists unearthed the skeleton of a warrior who had been buried in full armour and was still holding a golden coin between his teeth. The coin was probably meant as an obol to help a safe passage into afterlife."

    Love Maastricht Region - Merovingian Graves of Borgharen.
    http://love.maastrichtregion.com/blo...borgharen.html




    Frankish Burial Scene (With coin betwen teeth)!!!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXLyrmd34WI&t=10m04s
    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-15 at 14:25.

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    This is very interesting to me since I am also J2. I am from the J2a branch. My paternal ancestor was a Dutch person, does anyone have more information about how the J2a branch came to the Netherlands?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sjaak View Post
    This is very interesting to me since I am also J2. I am from the J2a branch. My paternal ancestor was a Dutch person, does anyone have more information about how the J2a branch came to the Netherlands?
    I have no Idea about how J2a came to Netherlands. I'm a J2a also, more specifically J2a1h. My direct Male lineage is French/Norman. Daniel "The Huguenot" Perrin is my direct Male ancestor who came to America in 1665 said to be of Norman stock from the Isle of Jersey. Our family was greatly entwined with the Carteret family and the House of Rossel.

    My Ethnic Profile via Ancestry (if that means anything lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sjaak View Post
    This is very interesting to me since I am also J2. I am from the J2a branch. My paternal ancestor was a Dutch person, does anyone have more information about how the J2a branch came to the Netherlands?
    Which clade of J2a?

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