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Thread: The least ENF Europeans are Saami

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    The least ENF Europeans are Saami


    Here's ANE K8 results of a Saami man from Finland along with the results of modern and ancient people from nearby regions. As you can see this Saami man fits in East Europe and is most similar to Far-East Europeans. This test confirms the Saami are not Mesolithic relics(They have minor Middle Eastern ancestry) or distinct from other Europeans. Although he does have the lowest Near Eastern score in this test of all Europeans.

    If you had to break it down he looks to be 20% something Neolithic West Asian, 25% Siberian, and 55% Mesolithic East-Central European and Central Asian. His non-Siberian side is probably close to 75% Mesolithic European-Central Asian. There was already minor Siberian-admixture in Karelia over 7,000 years ago.

    Considering how similar Bronze age Samara-Yamna were to modern Far-East Euros(especially Udmurts) and the 4,500YBP N1c from Russia, it's safe to assume his ancestors have been in East Europe mostly unchanged for many thousands of years.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...PK0/edit#gid=0

    There are still people who have an assumption Saami are genetically distinct from other Europeans and somehow more indigenous, which isn't true at all. It's based on recent historical events. Most people in the world used to be as ethnic and tribal Saami are(were). I'm tired of the ridiculous romanticism people have for Saami, Native Amercians, and other "indigenous" people in the world.

    It wasn't till very recently that humans started to create large modern nations. The genetics of the modern world are mostly not defined by recent developments, they were more defined in much more primitive times. The people building skyscrapers in China today are the descendants of people who used sticks and stones to build their homes there thousands of years ago.

    Being more primitive doesn't equal more native. Saami are a great example of this.

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    Surprising but even less than the Uralic peoples, I have read that Udmurts have an high percentage of red hair.
    Returning on topic, not hard to believe that, since they are really isolated for milleniums, so they are probably the most ancient europeans.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    How does this jive with high rates of mtDNA V in the Saami, if V originated in the Near East?

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    Just curious, how much Siberian and or East Asian do they get in the calculators?

    As to the mtDna, the last paper I read postulated movement from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge north east...something to do with similarity with North Africans, if I remember correctly, but that might have applied only to the "U" lineage.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Surprising but even less than the Uralic peoples, I have read that Udmurts have an high percentage of red hair.
    Returning on topic, not hard to believe that, since they are really isolated for milleniums, so they are probably the most ancient europeans.
    Sardinians, not Saami(who have close relatives in East Europe) are an example of an isolate population, and I like to call them Neolithic fossils. The "massive migration from the steppe" affected every spot in west Europe except Sardinia. They haven't changed genetically in a significant way for probably over 8,000 years.

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...943/table/TB1/

    Saami are almost exclusively V and U5b1b1a(former U5b1b1). This could be because of a founder effect, and so doesn't represent their autosomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...943/table/TB1/

    Saami are almost exclusively V and U5b1b1a(former U5b1b1). This could be because of a founder effect, and so doesn't represent their autosomes.
    Founder effects belong to those who came firstest or with the mostest. BTW, are there any studies that include the subclade or subclades for mtDNA V in the Saami?

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    ”Being more primitive doesn't equal more native. Saami are a great example of this.”

    I would not say that Saamis are more primitive than you are, Fire Haired. Traditionally, Saami identity lies in reindeer herding, which means that they are as primitive as Western European cow herders or Mongolian horse riders. Moreover, I do think that Saamis carry more Mesolithic ancestry than Finns or Norwegians, and are therefore more native to the Far North.

    Saami V is V7a. Maciamo has noted that haplogroup V (V7 and V15) is one of the typical European lineages that has been found in Armenia and Azerbaijan which is close to the Neolithic homeland of R1b cattle herders. It may not be a coincidence that Saamis are reindeer herders.

    If you want to get a better idea of modern Saamis, please have a look for example at these photos: http://www.samediggi.no/Riikkaidgask...as-ovttasbargu
    http://skuvla.info/skolehist/samediggi97w.jpg

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    Going by these pictures, many of them seem to have a pronounced "East Asian" or Mongoloid influence. I wasn't able to find very much published research on them in terms of overall admixture (not uniparental markers), but the one study below says 6% East Asian admixture. That seems rather low given how they "look", although I know that such judgments are subjective.

    "A genome-wide analysis of population structure in Finnish Saami"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/

    I also found this 2010 analysis on Dienekes' site of a paper that did a K6 analysis of various peoples.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12...opulation.html

    Other than that...nothing.

    Do the Sami resist dna analysis, like the indigenous populations in the New World?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Going by these pictures, many of them seem to have a pronounced "East Asian" or Mongoloid influence. I wasn't able to find very much published research on them in terms of overall admixture (not uniparental markers), but the one study below says 6% East Asian admixture. That seems rather low given how they "look", although I know that such judgments are subjective.

    "A genome-wide analysis of population structure in Finnish Saami"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/

    I also found this 2010 analysis on Dienekes' site of a paper that did a K6 analysis of various peoples.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12...opulation.html

    Other than that...nothing.

    Do the Sami resist dna analysis, like the indigenous populations in the New World?
    The Mongoloid phenotypes could be an example of founder effect. Maybe the autosomes related to the East Asian look has the the same source as the ydna haplogroup N1c1. Perhaps within the six percent East Asian dna left, there is positively selected genes that exhibit the East Asian look. The only East Asian phenotype I see though is the epicanthic fold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Going by these pictures, many of them seem to have a pronounced "East Asian" or Mongoloid influence. I wasn't able to find very much published research on them in terms of overall admixture (not uniparental markers), but the one study below says 6% East Asian admixture. That seems rather low given how they "look", although I know that such judgments are subjective.

    "A genome-wide analysis of population structure in Finnish Saami"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/

    I also found this 2010 analysis on Dienekes' site of a paper that did a K6 analysis of various peoples.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12...opulation.html

    Other than that...nothing.

    Do the Sami resist dna analysis, like the indigenous populations in the New World?
    The single Finnish Saami individual Davidski has scores 20% East Eurasian in ANE K8, and around 20% Siberian in K15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The single Finnish Saami individual Davidski has scores 20% East Eurasian in ANE K8, and around 20% Siberian in K15.
    Well, that explains the phenotype then, which is not just a question of any epicanthic folds in my subjective opinion; it's also in the shape of the face and the cheekbones. People with American Indian descent and mestizos also sometimes have an "East Eurasian" look to me and most of them don't have epicanthic folds.

    I don't know much about Sami ethnogenesis, but if there is documented evidence of gene flow from non Sami groups into their community, it might be that in the past they were even more East Eurasian.

    I'm never in the business of excluding any group from the "European" fold based on some percentages of "extra" ancestry, but I hardly think it would be logical for people who do engage in that sort of thing to claim the Sami are the most "European" group.

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    On Eurogenes K15 they have 19,97 of Siberian and 2,2 of Amerindian
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1872836177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, that explains the phenotype then, which is not just a question of any epicanthic folds in my subjective opinion; it's also in the shape of the face and the cheekbones. People with American Indian descent and mestizos also sometimes have an "East Eurasian" look to me and most of them don't have epicanthic folds.

    I don't know much about Sami ethnogenesis, but if there is documented evidence of gene flow from non Sami groups into their community, it might be that in the past they were even more East Eurasian.

    I'm never in the business of excluding any group from the "European" fold based on some percentages of "extra" ancestry, but I hardly think it would be logical for people who do engage in that sort of thing to claim the Sami are the most "European" group.
    I agree and I think we should be hesitant from ranking how "Middle Eastern", "East Asian", and "African" anyone is. Usually there aren't 100% clear cut geographic and genetic classifications(sometimes there are), it's all general. The Saami from Finland is a lot differnt from Finnish, especially in having more Siberian ancestry. Maybe they were even more Siberian in the past. I've heard that early Scandinavian writings described Finns as being dark and with East Asian features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Going by these pictures, many of them seem to have a pronounced "East Asian" or Mongoloid influence. I wasn't able to find very much published research on them in terms of overall admixture (not uniparental markers), but the one study below says 6% East Asian admixture. That seems rather low given how they "look", although I know that such judgments are subjective.

    "A genome-wide analysis of population structure in Finnish Saami"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/

    I also found this 2010 analysis on Dienekes' site of a paper that did a K6 analysis of various peoples.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12...opulation.html

    Other than that...nothing.

    Do the Sami resist dna analysis, like the indigenous populations in the New World?

    6% is too low i think. I have seen studies showing as high as 12% East Eurasian DNA.
    Take in mind Angela the image is a very old one. Modern Saami look very different from this.

    This is how modern Saamis look like. So 6-12% East Eurasian DNA fits.
    Last edited by Alan; 23-04-15 at 00:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    6% is too low. I have seen studies showing as high as 12% East Eurasian DNA.
    Take in mind Angela the image is a very old one. Modern Saami look very different from this.

    This is how modern Saamis look like. So 6-12% East Eurasian DNA fits.
    I wasn't going by that particular image...it didn't seem at all representative to me. I was going by the published study I found.

    Also, as I said, the little I've read about them indicates that there's been continuing inflow of other genetic material from the surrounding community, so the percentages may have shifted in the last 100 years or so.

    I don't think anyone is capable of looking at a picture or a human being, for that matter, and pinning a precise percentage of minority ancestry to it. I've known African Americans who score around 20-25% European on 23andme and they look very different from one another. I actually know one inter-racial couple very well. One child passes as white and has to constantly counter incredulity when she says she is half black, another looks totally black, and the third looks sort of Hispanic. Granted, the mother is actually about one third "white" to her knowledge, but the point holds.

    That said, 20% "Siberian" could explain their phenotype.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If your idea is that Saamis are originally East Asian or over 20% East Asian, you are with all probability mistaken. Saamis probably have a portion of Motala like admixture and a high Mesolithic Karelian (cf. Oleni Ostrov man) like admixture which explain their high ANE and WHG. Their Siberian portion comes mainly via Arctic contacts and has continued from prehistoric times till historic times. Saamis are a nice example of what Western Eurasians + Arctic with the lowest percentage of Near East look like.

    Those people who brought their Uralic type language to Saamis were probably closest to modern Karelians whose East Asian portion may be in 10% range. MtDNA’s V7 and U5b were probably brought by them as both are frequent in Karelians.

    As regards Siberian/Native American admixture in Finland, this figure is very interesting: http://www.fi.id.au/2014/11/clovis-a...-in-ftdna.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    If your idea is that Saamis are originally East Asian or over 20% East Asian, you are with all probability mistaken. Saamis probably have a portion of Motala like admixture and a high Mesolithic Karelian (cf. Oleni Ostrov man) like admixture which explain their high ANE and WHG. Their Siberian portion comes mainly via Arctic contacts and has continued from prehistoric times till historic times. Saamis are a nice example of what Western Eurasians + Arctic with the lowest percentage of Near East look like.
    Saami follow the East European trend. Everyone from Ireland to Lapland has recent connections, via Yamna-types. The similar WHG-ANE-ENF mix we see all over Europe could not have been created independently multiple times. So, Saami IMO are not a unique creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    It seems they are similar to the Chuvash at that K level.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    If your idea is that Saamis are originally East Asian or over 20% East Asian, you are with all probability mistaken. Saamis probably have a portion of Motala like admixture and a high Mesolithic Karelian (cf. Oleni Ostrov man) like admixture which explain their high ANE and WHG. Their Siberian portion comes mainly via Arctic contacts and has continued from prehistoric times till historic times. Saamis are a nice example of what Western Eurasians + Arctic with the lowest percentage of Near East look like.

    Those people who brought their Uralic type language to Saamis were probably closest to modern Karelians whose East Asian portion may be in 10% range. MtDNA’s V7 and U5b were probably brought by them as both are frequent in Karelians.

    As regards Siberian/Native American admixture in Finland, this figure is very interesting: http://www.fi.id.au/2014/11/clovis-a...-in-ftdna.html
    I'm sorry if I seemed to imply that I have any certainty about these percentages. My only point was that if the Sami experience is like that of Amerindians there has probably been continuous inflow of genetic material from surrounding populations of Swedes, Finns, etc. depending on the location. Therefore, the percentages of East Asian/Siberian, depending on the calculator, would probably have been somewhat higher in the past. Without some medieval or even older dna from them I don't see how the amount could be quantified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    If your idea is that Saamis are originally East Asian or over 20% East Asian, you are with all probability mistaken. Saamis probably have a portion of Motala like admixture and a high Mesolithic Karelian (cf. Oleni Ostrov man) like admixture which explain their high ANE and WHG. Their Siberian portion comes mainly via Arctic contacts and has continued from prehistoric times till historic times. Saamis are a nice example of what Western Eurasians + Arctic with the lowest percentage of Near East look like.

    Just that I would replace "Near Eastern" with "neolithic Near Eastern". We yet don't know where WHG or ANE started. WHG could have very well evolved in the Near East in Paleolithic and reached Europe that early. This is an explanation for why yDNA I (WHG) is related to J(ANE+EEF).

    And I personally suspect we will find allot more ANE in the region between modern Iran and South_Central Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Saami follow the East European trend. Everyone from Ireland to Lapland has recent connections, via Yamna-types. The similar WHG-ANE-ENF mix we see all over Europe could not have been created independently multiple times. So, Saami IMO are not a unique creation.
    I think we will have to agree to disagree. The ethnogenesis of any people is unique in some sense, even if they resemble neighboring populations. In the case of the Sami, they have been tested autosomally and they are anywhere from 6-12% East Asian apparently, and many calculators show them as around 20% or more Siberian, (plus some East Asian?) In terms of genealogy, 12% East Asian is the same amount as an Englishman would have if he had a Chinese great grandmother. (I'm aware that not all Sami would test as 12% East Asian.)

    I'm not aware of any other European population with that kind of admixture with East Eurasians.That qualifies as pretty unique to me if it doesn't to you.

    Ed. Well, it may be slightly more nuanced than that, yes? There are some Finns, if I remember correctly, who also score around 6% East Asian? Some Sami would therefore seem to score twice that? Still, it is limited to that corner of Europe apparently. It's not to be wondered at, surely, that there should be some overlap at the margins. It's certainly true with low NAfrican percentages in southern Europe.

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    This is an reconstruction of a German H&G made years ago. The facial features look familiar to anyone and have been seen by anyone.
    However take in mind this reconstruction was made without usage of genetic Data, Therefore you should imagine him even a shade darker as he is reconstructed here.

    http://bilder.bild.de/fotos/koeln-ei...ild/3.bild.jpg
    Last edited by Alan; 23-04-15 at 21:37.

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    Looking at these reconstruction it kinda appears to me like neolithic farmers brought the typical more refined facial feature with dolichocephalic head and vertical forheads to Europe.

    Here are reconstructions of the neolithic Trypillian culture.

    Last edited by Alan; 23-04-15 at 17:46.

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