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Thread: I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    No, they didn't declare, it was written in ID document by A-H Empire authorities. Under A-H Empire there were no Polish people around Krakow, they were all White Croats. Polish people in Poland Minor never called themselves Biali Chorwaci.

    When emigrants came to USA from Poland they couldn't declare anything, because they didn't speak English. They showed their documents, A-H document, and in documents it said White Croats. Honestly, they were happy to be accepted in USA. Why would they argue about their nationality with immigration officer, and in language they don't understand? Do you see the confusion now?

    Please present one historical note or a map showing White Croatia in Poland, pre 1800. Otherwise your arguments don't hold much water. All clues point to A-H Empire propaganda, as a culprit of this mess. Sorry if you fell a victim of it.

    If you say that there are no maps or any data before year 1800 that in southern Poland ever existed White Croatia and White Croats how then Austro-Hungarians know about White Croatia and Croats in southern Poland and around Krakow if they not exist ..

    This means that Austro Hungarians actually created White Croats and put them right in south Poland without any historical or genetic data and today it is confirmed by genetics...

    You've got problems my friend..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    If you say that there are no maps or any data before year 1800 that in southern Poland ever existed White Croatia and White Croats how then Austro-Hungarians know about White Croatia and Croats in southern Poland and around Krakow if they not exist ..

    This means that Austro Hungarians actually created White Croats and put them right in south Poland without any historical or genetic data and today it is
    Finally, you got it!


    confirmed by genetics...
    Confirmed are the genetic links between Slavs, but not the geographical location of ancient White Croatia.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Finally, you got it!
    Are you kidding me..?

    Why the Austrians not in southern Poland created Serbs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Bosniacs if they did not have information that there lived Croatians...

    Since I first time hear that Austrians invented White Croats give me some link to read what it is about..

    Austrians have created White Croats precisely at the point where is previous mutation Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype... how they did it .... magic..

    Of all the places in the Austro-Hungarian empire they created Croats right there....

    Stop joking around...Croatians genetic coming from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia .. it is genetically undeniable...Everything else you're talking about are stories for young children...

    Reconstruction of the Stiljsko archaeological site of White Croats in Ukraine (a drawing from the publication Stiljsko gorodišče IX – počatku XI st., oseredok obščinnoji ta velikoknjazivs’koji vladi Shidnih Horvativ, see below)

    A part of White Croatian site in Stiljsko, still investigated. The whole site, with environing settlements, had around 40,000 inhabitants in 9th to 11th centuries, which is more than the city of Kiev at that time!

    http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats-migrating-slavic-tribe/

    Austrians invented White Croats in 1800 while they had settlements and lived in the area 800 years earlier....


    Nestor the Chronicler 1113
    After many years had passed, Slavic people settled on the Danube, where Hungary and Bulgaria are now. From those Slavic tribes they spread to many lands, calling themselves with many names which were from grounds they stayed on. And so, leaving on the Morava river, they called themselves Moravians, and anothers as Czech. Yet another Slavic people were White Croatians, and Serbians, and Korantans. Those, when oppressed by Italians who invaded that grounds, embarked towards Vistula and stayed there calling themselves Lendians, and later Polans,

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Most of Slavic tribes in the Balkans were East Slavs, who entered the region from Moldova-Romania (from the north-east):

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...lavs-in-Greece

    We have quite a precise description of the area inhabited by Slavs in Byzantine neighbourhood around year 500 AD from Procopius (VII: 14, 30) - who wrote that they lived north of the Danube - and Jordanes (V: 30-37) - who provided more details. He wrote (V: 34-35):

    "(34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart."


    Marek Dulnicz, "The Lombard Headman Called Ildigis and the Slavs" (in English), identifies those geographical locations as follows:

    http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_...inicz%2C+Marek



    1) Noviodunum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum_%28castra%29

    2) lake Mursianus (citation from M. Dulnicz):

    "Lake Mursianus was in fact, according to the majority of researchers, the vast marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube; (...) the lake or marshes in question might have extended as far as to the juncture of the Tisza and the Danube. The lake’s name was derived from the town of Mursa (present-day Osijek)."

    3) Danaster = Dniester river

    4) Danaper = Dnieper river

    5) "Alps" = Carpathians

    Source of the Vistula is located close to the present-day Bielsko-Biała: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielsko-Bia%C5%82a

    And "the curve of the sea of Pontus [Black Sea]" was the coastline (which forms a nice curve) in the region of present-day Odessa.

    So here is the area where those Slavs lived around year 500 AD, shortly before crossing the Danube and entering the Balkans:



    =====================================

    This map - from Zofia Kurnatowska's "Southern Slavs" - shows the distribution of Slavic tribes (red colour) in the Balkans in the 7th - 9th centuries:





    Clear version:





    Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi): Google Translate

    Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai): Google Translate

    Siedem Rodow: Google Translate

    Strumincy: Google Translate

    Rynchyni: Google Translate

    Sagudaci: Google Translate

    Draguwici: Google Translate

    Welegezyci: Google Translate

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    Smolanie: Google Translate

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Today people with I2a1b2a1a3 haplotype are Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosnians, etc .. But if they have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 they are White Croatian origin...It is the logic.

    Whether they come directly from White Croatia to Bulgaria or from Croatia remains to be determined....as well as some Czechs have earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a3 A356....these Czechs obviously come from Croatia...
    http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3111/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Leszek Podhorodecki in "Dzieje Ukrainy" ("History of Ukraine") writes:

    "(...) At the turns of the 5th and the 6th centuries the Slavs, living until that time at the Dniester River, attacked the borders of the Byzantine Empire. The whole reign of Justin (518-527) and that of Justinian (527-557) were filled with combats against the Slavs pushing south across the Danube. They were especially active in period 545-557, because at that time they started to settle en masse in conquered territories [south of the Danube]. Only the incursion of the Avars into the Black Sea steppe and the lands along the Danube [years 561 - 569], hampered - for some time - the Slavic migration. After victorious wars against [some of] Slavic tribes, the Avars penetrated into the Pannonian Basin, and established their realm there. (...)" - from page 18

    And the Dniester River is here:



    ===============================

    These are Slavic tribes ancestral to Slavic Macedonians (red lines show borders of the region of Macedonia):



    Some of those tribes became Hellenized, but Slavs were still the most numerous ethnic group in Macedonia:

    Ethnic groups in Macedonia before WW1





    After WW1 at least 618,200 immigrant Anatolian Greeks settled in Macedonia (patterns of settlement of Anatolian Greeks throughout Macedonia and other regions of Greece can be seen in maps posted below, 1st map shows the proportion of Anatolian immigrants to local populations in each region):

    Proportion of immigrants from Asia Minor (by region):



    And settlements of immigrants from Asia Minor (dots):



    Comparing the size of Greek population of southern Macedonia before WW1 (236,800) and the number of Anatolian Greek immigrants after WW1 (618,200) shows that Anatolian Greeks outnumbered Macedonian Greeks 3 to 1 in that area, and they significantly changed the ethnic makeup of that territory.

    Simultaneously with the influx of at least 618,200 Anatolian Greeks, at least 130,010 of local Slavic inhabitants (out of 370,371 - rounded to 370,400 in my chart above) were deported from southern Macedonia towards northern regions of what later became Yugoslavia and to western Bulgaria. Deportations of Turks also took place. Jews (most of whom lived in the city of Salonica) were later wiped out in WW2, further decreasing the number of non-Greek minorities.

    Possibly much more Slavic-speakers than 130,010 left that region after WW1 - but not all of them necessarily in organized deportations.

    My next finding is that the exodus after WW1 was not the last one - because during and after the Greek Civil War (1946 - 1949) over 100,000 more Slavs from Greek Macedonia had to emigrate to Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, further decreasing the size of Slavic minority in Greece.

    Yet some Slavic minority in southern (Greek) Macedonia still exists - for example according to the report of Human Rights Watch "Denying Ethnic Identity. The Macedonians of Greece", in 1992 over 65% of inhabitants of the district of Florina (Φλώρινα) described themselves as Slavic Macedonians.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Most of Slavic tribes in the Balkans were East Slavs, who entered the region from Moldova-Romania (from the north-east):

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...lavs-in-Greece

    We have quite a precise description of the area inhabited by Slavs in Byzantine neighbourhood around year 500 AD from Procopius (VII: 14, 30) - who wrote that they lived north of the Danube - and Jordanes (V: 30-37) - who provided more details. He wrote (V: 34-35):

    "(34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart."


    Marek Dulnicz, "The Lombard Headman Called Ildigis and the Slavs" (in English), identifies those geographical locations as follows:

    http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_...inicz%2C+Marek



    1) Noviodunum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum_%28castra%29

    2) lake Mursianus (citation from M. Dulnicz):

    "Lake Mursianus was in fact, according to the majority of researchers, the vast marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube; (...) the lake or marshes in question might have extended as far as to the juncture of the Tisza and the Danube. The lake’s name was derived from the town of Mursa (present-day Osijek)."

    3) Danaster = Dniester river

    4) Danaper = Dnieper river

    5) "Alps" = Carpathians

    Source of the Vistula is located close to the present-day Bielsko-Biała: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielsko-Bia%C5%82a

    And "the curve of the sea of Pontus [Black Sea]" was the coastline (which forms a nice curve) in the region of present-day Odessa.

    So here is the area where those Slavs lived around year 500 AD, shortly before crossing the Danube and entering the Balkans:



    =====================================

    This map - from Zofia Kurnatowska's "Southern Slavs" - shows the distribution of Slavic tribes (red colour) in the Balkans in the 7th - 9th centuries:





    Clear version:





    Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi): Google Translate

    Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai): Google Translate

    Siedem Rodow: Google Translate

    Strumincy: Google Translate

    Rynchyni: Google Translate

    Sagudaci: Google Translate

    Draguwici: Google Translate

    Welegezyci: Google Translate

    Berzici: Google Translate

    Smolanie: Google Translate
    LOL...did you learn your history from

    Srbi.......narod najtariji by Olga Lukovic-Pjanovic

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=fn_F3uZ7DTEC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=Srbi.. .....narod+najstariji+by+Olga+Lukovic-Pjanovic&source=bl&ots=sHiGOwvGhR&sig=CrfUJi11IQSx ctKdZ3wLiUsLqw8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pj9gVeamLJfv8gXT8IP4 CA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=Srbi.......narod% 20najstariji%20by%20Olga%20Lukovic-Pjanovic&f=false




    I have not read Srbi for a long while, but IIRC, it states the tower of Babel was build by slavs, the Pharaohs where slavs, the slavs ruled all of europe up to the rhine river and bordering Italy and other fantasy things
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Sites of three Ancient cities - Pella, Salonica and Athens - had respectively Slavic, Jewish and Albanian majorities in the 1800s.

    "(...) Athens, 25 years ago [in 1830], was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. When King Otto [the Bavarian] of Greece arrived to Athens in 1830, he asked, where are the Greeks. (...)"

    Source: "Greece of The Hellenes", Lucy M. J. Garnett, Page 32

    Albanians were also the majority of inhabitants in large parts of the Peloponnese in the 1800s:



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    Herodotus was calling the Thracians second most numeorous people in the world after the Indians,if we take in mind that nowadays Baltic and Slavic language is the most close language to Thracian maybe we can answer some questions,just like Mario Alinei specialist in geo linguistics explained: we could then advance the hypothesis that Thracians was the name that Herodotus gave to the Slavs, owing to the fact the Thracians were
    one of the most powerful and representative elites of Eastern Europe,
    seen with Herodotus’ inevitably colonialist eyes. In a first approximation, then, the Thracians would appear to be a Southern Slavic geo-variational group, out of which
    came a Bronze age elite, first dominating then extinguished.
    This hypothesis could be further developed and refined in the light of the results
    of research on the Thracian language which, with the caution due to the scarcity of
    materials, can be so summarized:
    (1) Thracian is an IE satem language, like Baltic and Slavic;
    (2) as discovered by Trubachev (see above), Thracian place names show a surprising
    similarity with the Baltic ones;
    (3) in some cases, however, Thracian affinities seem stronger with Slavic: the Thr.
    place-name suffix -dizos e -diza, for example, to which the meaning of ‘fortress’ has
    been attributed on the basis of the comparison with Gr. teƭkhos ‘wall’ (IEW 244), has a
    much closer counterpart in the metathetic forms of OSl. ziždom, zydati ‘to build’ zydǎ,
    zidǎ ‘wall’, than in the Baltic ones (also methatetic), meaning ‘to form’. And the
    vocalism of the Thr. river name Strymon and place name Stryme seems closer to Pol.
    strumien ‘brook’ and OSlav. struja ‘stream’ than to Latv stràume ‘stream’ (IEW 1003).
    The most plausible hypothesis would be then that Thracian was a conservative type of
    Slavic, still preserving Baltic features and spoken by a peripheral group of Southern
    Slavs, somehow parallel to the Northern peripheral Balts. Following the geolinguistic
    well-known rule, according to which the center innovates (Danube basin) and the periphery preserves.He further more prove that Southern Slavic is older then Northern Slavic language,the migrations couldn't happen the way it is explained in the theory of 6th century,however Ken Nordvedt should give I2a din more time then just 3000 years i think is more old then that,simple doesn't fit in some recent discoveries of linguistics and archeologists,plus i does not think so I2a din can be one of the most dominant haplogroup in the Balkans and some other regions in just 3000 years,further more if I2a din was absent prior Slavic migration then who inhabit Western Balkans,was it just a waste land,i doubt so,it was pretty important Roman region,or did they genocide the previous population when they migrated,however archeological proves are missing from that kind of event,if Slavic language was first recorded in the 8th century in the Balkans doesn't mean they migrated then,it mean they start to write,Albanian is firstly attested in the 15th,Romanian in the 16th century but none mention any migrations or "invasions" plus Balkan Slavs has only 5% of R1a clades that dominate Northern Slavs,all rest of R1a is of much older migrations,how then was that migration happening.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 05-06-15 at 11:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Serbs came to the Balkans from West Slavic areas. White Serbia is mentioned in Early Medieval sources.

    You still have Sorbs in Germany today, they share some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs.

    Slovenes also share some ancestors with Slovaks. The similarity of names is not accidental in this case.

    Slovenes used to be called Winds, which is similar to the name for West Slavs (Wends).

    All these groups of course mixed with and absorbed other Slavic groups which came via Moldova & Romania.
    Not true at all,maybe not.

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    " Ken Nordvedt should give I2a din more time then just 3000 years i think is more old then that,simple doesn't fit in some recent discoveries of linguistics and archeologists,plus i does not think so I2a din can be one of the most dominant haplogroup in the Balkans and some other regions in just 3000 years,"

    This is absolutely impossible.Look at the TMRCAs:
    http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3111/

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    The history of the Thracians started in the early Bronze Age when archaeology shows there was a change in culture due to peoples moving in from the Steppe lands to the east. These peoples entered lands which already had more than 3000 years of civilisation; sturdy square houses, towns, art, copper technology.

    http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/thracian.htm

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    To which cultures you are talking about precisely?the History of the Thracians and in case of every "barbarians" started when one wrote for them,when they formed a political ethnie,tribal organization name it however,those people surely have lived prior then that,maybe not in that form,same goes for Sclavenes (Slavs) their history doesn't start in the 6th century when Procopious of Caeserea(Palestine)name the people on the Danube by that name,surely they was arround and in Europe longer,just maybe by other names in Roman historiography.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 31-05-15 at 07:55.

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    This is absolutely impossible.Look at the TMRCAs:

    I2a din couldn't be one of the dominant haplogroup in just 2500 years in the Balkan peninsula and some other regions.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 07-06-15 at 22:48.

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    Extension to South of the Proto-Slavic homeland Trubachev’s main thesis is that prehistoric Slavs occupied not only the middle area of Central Europe, but also the Danube basin. Several arguments, to be added to mine, have led him to this conclusion 1) “The version about the Slavs coming from ‘somewhere’ originated long time ago ina misunderstanding of the silence of the Greek and Roman authors about the Slavs as such” (Trubaþev 1985, 227). Trubaþev here refers to the old version of the traditional theory, according to which Slavs would have ‘arrived’ in the 6th century. 30(2) The absence of any memory of the ‘arrival’ of the Slavs in the Slavic written or oral record “may be an indication of their (and their ancestors!) original stay in Central Oriental Europe in large numbers” (idem, 206). (3) Both in the oldest, 12th century Russian chronicle (the so called “Narration of the past times”) (Conte 1990, 9), and in the oral tradition represented by Russian byliny, the permanence of Slavs on the Danube is remembered (Trubachev 1985, 204-5). “What else, if not a memory of the old stay on the Danube, appears [...] in the old songs about the Danube among the Eastern Slavs who, it should be remembered, never lived on the Danube [...] during their written history and never took part in the Balcanic invasions of the Early Middle Ages” (ibidem). More over, already B.A. Rybakov had maintained that the history of Eastern Slavs began in the South (idem, 225). The Middle Dneper area remains important, but “it is not excluded that in some previous period [...] [it] was only a [peripheral] part of a greater and otherwise shaped territory”. This would be also confirmed y the high percentage of anthropological Mediterranean types among Eastern Slavs and Poles (idem, 225, n. 20). In fact, in the middle of the first millennium the Right Bank Ukraine must already be a part of the periphery of the ancient Slavic area(idem, 242).(4) Many scholars have anticipated Trubaþev’s thesis: Budimir, supported by numerousex-Yugoslavian scholars, claimed a greater proximity of Ancient Slavs to the Balkanic region than traditionally thought; Kopitar sought the Proto-Slavic homeland on the Danube and in Pannonia; Niederle admitted the existence of Slavic enclaves in Thracia and in Illyiria already at the beginning of our era; and both Niederle and Šafárik considered as Slavic terms like Vulka, Vrbas, Tsierna e Pathissus (s. further) (idem,223, 227, 229).(5) According to Trubaþev, even the historian Jordanes’ collocation of the Veneti to the North of the Sclaveni, and Anti to their East, implies the Slavic presence in the South(idem, 228).(6) Hungarian place names, in Pannonia and on the Tisza, are Slavic, as J. Stanislav has demonstrated (idem, 228). The region’s river names, such as Tisza (Rum. Tisa, Germ.Theiss, to be compared with Plinius’ place name Pathissus, composed with the Slavic prefix po-; Maros (Rum. Mureú, in Herodotus Máris, from PIE *mori ‘sea’, but with aSlavic suffix); the suffix -s, common to river names such as Szamos (Rum. Someú) and Temes, certainly derives from a Slavic suffix -sjo- (idem, 228-9).(7) Trubaþev then underlines the importance of the contacts between common Slavic and the different IE linguistic groups, and of the respective isoglosses (often, however,without being able to exploit them owing to the traditional chronology!)a) The Slavo-Latin isoglosses, appearing in the social sphere (Lat. hospes ~ Slav.*gospodƱ, Lat. favere ~ Slav. *govČti), in the construction terminology (Lat. struere ~Slav. *strojiti), in that of landscape (Lat. paludes ~ Slav. *pola voda); of agriculture(Lat. pomum < *po-emom ~ Slav. *pojmo (Russ. pojmo ‘handful’) (idem, 216. And seealso 217: gǎrnǎ, kladivo, molty). Within the PCT these isoglosses can be dated, at thelatest, to the beginning of Neolithic, when the contacts between the ‘Italid’ culture ofthe Cardial/Impresso Ware on the Adriatic Eastern coast and the South Slavic Starþevo culture were certainly very close.(b) The Slavo-Illyrian isoglosses (Doksy, Czech place name, Daksa, Adriatic island, andHesichius’ gloss: Epirotic dáksa; Dukla, mountain pass in the Carpatians, Duklja in Montenegro, Doklea (Ptolemy); Licicaviki, Polish tribal name, to be compared to Illyr.*Liccavici (Illyr. anthroponym Liccavus, Liccavius) and Southern Slavic place name Lika (Trubaþev 1985, 217-8).(c) Slavo-Iranian contacts, which, as we have seen, according to Trubaþev should not precede the middle of the 1st millennium (idem, 241).(8) Criticizing the excessive restriction of the earliest Slavic area Trubaþev finally recalls Brückner’s humorous warning: “Don’t do to anybody what would not please you. The German scholars would love to drown all the Slavs in the Pripet swamps, and the Slavic scholars all the Germans in the Dollart […] – a quite pointless endeavour:there would not be enough room for them; better drop the matter and don’t spare God’slight for either of them” (idem, 206).

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    N. S. Trubetskoy prolongs the late Ancient Slavic period up to the latest common Slav
    innovation, namely, to the drop-out of reduced vowels (ъ, ь
    ), as well as links it to
    vocalization. The existence of autonomous Slavic languages can be presumed after this timelimit
    only.
    http://doktori.btk.elte.hu/lingv/fabicstamas/thesis.pdf


    Before the Settlement of the Magyars in Hungary time of which is much disputed many
    nations lived on this territory for shorter or longer periods. A part of these nations spoke
    Ancient Slavic dialects. Slavs lived in this area in sparse settlements; it was due to dissected
    landscape and also to the varied ethnic composition of the region's population at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    N. S. Trubetskoy prolongs the late Ancient Slavic period up to the latest common Slav
    innovation, namely, to the drop-out of reduced vowels (ъ, ь
    ), as well as links it to
    vocalization. The existence of autonomous Slavic languages can be presumed after this timelimit
    only.



    Before the Settlement of the Magyars in Hungary time of which is much disputed many
    nations lived on this territory for shorter or longer periods. A part of these nations spoke
    Ancient Slavic dialects. Slavs lived in this area in sparse settlements; it was due to dissected
    landscape and also to the varied ethnic composition of the region's population at the time.
    Slavic enormous expansion the only evidence for a great migration of Slavs in historical times that traditional scholars can possibly claim lies in a literal reading of the mentions of medieval historians, such as the Thracian Priscus of Panion (5th century), the Greek Procopius of Cesarea (6th century) and the Goth Jordanes (6th century), or those of the Church (e.g. Conte 1990, 33-34). But it is quite evident that such mentions do not point unambiguously to an ‘invasion’ or ‘migration’ of Slavs, but can just as simply be taken as to refer to pre-existing Slavs, the presence of which even traditional scholars now admit. When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian (527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Bizantine territori by “the damned people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they are ‘arriving’! And when, in his De rebus Gethicis Jordanes describes the location of the Venedi, and writes that they inhabited the area “From the source of the Visla river and on incommensurable expanses”, he does not give the slightest indication of a recent arrival of theirs, but simply describes a statu quo.Not only, but when earlier historians, living in the centuries preceding the supposed arrival of the Slavs, write that the population of the Carpatian Basin offered a drink called medos (Proto-Slavic medǎ ‘drink produced with honey”) the Byzantine ambassadors directed to the court of Attila (king of the Huns), and that a part of the funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called strava (medieval name of a Slavic funeral ritual), only a biased reader can find evidence in this for the “first infiltrations” of Slavs in the Carpatian area, especially as they seem to have left not trace of their coming! (Neustupný-Neustupný 1963, 196). The much simpler truth is that the Slavs were there from remote times. For, again, the first mention of peoples in writing depends on the birthday of writing, and not on the birthday of peoples! In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to the North from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, the most important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which is entirely missing.How do scholars explain the semantic development from “Slavic” to “slave” in Western sources? All historical sources irrefutably show that the Slavic area was the main reservoir of slaves in the whole period of Early Middle Ages. This preference for slaves of Slavic origin – so strong as to make Slavs the slaves by anthonomasia – has been easily explained: in that period Slavic people were the only ones who were still pagan, and this detail is most important as it explains why, by choosing them, early medieval slave traders – mostly Venetian, Genoese and Jewish – did not violate the new principles of the “Societas christiana”, introduced by Pope Gregory the Great at the end of the 6th century, according to which baptized people must be excluded from slavery. So we obtain a safe dating for the word sclavus, in the sense of “slave”. Now, as this period is precisely the one in which the supposed ‘great migration’ of the Slavs should take place, the question arises: how can huge migrating groups that were supposed to be aggressively busy occupying half of Europe, from the Arctic area to the Black Sea, submerging and extinguishing all previous populations, have at the same time been chosen as the European slaves par excellence? This would clash against all that we know – and that history abundantly shows – rather than being migrating to new territories and exterminating pre-existing people, they were known to have beeen stable in their territories...
    Last edited by Милан М.; 07-06-15 at 23:01.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It must be noted that TMRCA is not the same as migration time.

    TMRCA shows when the number of people with a given mutation started to rise in numbers.

    They could be initially increasing in numbers in one region, without migrating to other areas yet.

    So claiming that I2a-Din didn't come with Slavs because it's TMRCA precedes the Slavic migration by some centuries, is erroneuous.

    It actually SHOULD precede the Slavic migration. Because if it didn't, then that would mean that only ONE Slavic person with I2a-Din came.

    And that was most likely not the case. I2a-Din increased in numbers to some thousands individuals, and only then started to migrate.

    =======================================

    BTW - check my thread on prehistoric distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe:

    Page 8 (R1a versus R1b maps):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...f-Europe/page8

    Page 1 (maps of all haplogroups):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...cape-of-Europe

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    "So claiming that I2a-Din didn't come with Slavs because it's TMRCA precedes the Slavic migration by some centuries, is erroneuous."
    So what?Tatars comes with Mongolians but they were not Mongolians.
    1)I2a-"Din" is not Dinaric! 2.)I2a is not IE! 3.I2a is not Slavic! 4.) Language and ethnicity are different things.5.) Haplogroup frequencies has nothing to do with Hg origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "So claiming that I2a-Din didn't come with Slavs because it's TMRCA precedes the Slavic migration by some centuries, is erroneuous."
    So what?Tatars comes with Mongolians but they were not Mongolians.
    1)I2a-"Din" is not Dinaric! 2.)I2a is not IE! 3.I2a is not Slavic! 4.) Language and ethnicity are different things.5.) Haplogroup frequencies has nothing to do with Hg origins.
    Hm, maybe it is the best that I2a-Din doesn't exist?

    Knowledge about I2a-Din changed completely picture about Balkans. Today people in the Internet forums, books, media think and speak total different, comparing with the time 15 years ago.


    Haplogroups by country:


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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "So claiming that I2a-Din didn't come with Slavs because it's TMRCA precedes the Slavic migration by some centuries, is erroneuous."
    So what?Tatars comes with Mongolians but they were not Mongolians.
    1)I2a-"Din" is not Dinaric! 2.)I2a is not IE! 3.I2a is not Slavic! 4.) Language and ethnicity are different things.5.) Haplogroup frequencies has nothing to do with Hg origins.
    I2a is indeed Dinaric and have it's name because of Dinaric Slavs and Dinaric Alps,that's how South Slavs are known,so what is it if it's not IE?how can you claim I2a din is not Slavic?Slavs are ethnolingustic group,and you speak as you know which haplogroups are responsible for IE Speech or like it's proven, just because you read some link on Eupedia which represent Kurgan hypothesis of IE languages,i would say Autochtonous people of Europe and the agriculture are responsible for IE languages,Kurgan cultures was Turkic and Pastoral,horse herding in it's origin,Klyosov himself claim that R1b brought Turkic or Caucasian languages in Europe,prove for this are the Etruscans and the Basques with highest R1b yet Non IE languages,Pastoral vs Agriculture:Kathrin Krell (1998) finds that the terms found in the reconstructed Indo-European language are not compatible with the cultural level of the Kurgans. Krell holds that the Indo-Europeans had agriculture whereas the Kurgan people were "just at a pastoral stage" and hence might not have had sedentary agricultural terms in their language, despite the fact that such terms are part of a Proto-Indo-European core vocabulary.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 01-06-15 at 00:46.

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    Language and ethnicity are different things.
    Language and ethnicity are related.

    Ethnicity is a cultural phenomenon, and language is a very important part of culture (though not the only part).

    Race is genetic. And within races you have sub-races, or anthropological types.

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    the Basques with highest R1b yet Non IE languages
    So what? The Basques are a similar case as the Paraguyans, the Chippewa or the Cherokee. As Maciamo explained.

    The Paraguyans have mostly R1b (Spanish subclades), but they speak Guarani language and they are genetically mixed race (Mestizos).

    90% of Paraguyans speak Guarani, of them majority also speak Spanish, but in rural regions 52% speak only Guarani.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    I2a is indeed Dinaric and have it's name because of Dinaric Slavs and Dinaric Alps,that's how South Slavs are known,so what is it if it's not IE?how can you claim I2a din is not Slavic?Slavs are ethnolingustic group,and you speak as you know which haplogroups are responsible for IE Speech or like it's proven, just because you read some link on Eupedia which represent Kurgan hypothesis of IE languages,i would say Autochtonous people of Europe and the agriculture are responsible for IE languages,Kurgan cultures was Turkic and Pastoral,horse herding in it's origin,Klyosov himself claim that R1b brought Turkic or Caucasian languages in Europe,prove for this are the Etruscans and the Basques with highest R1b yet Non IE languages,Pastoral vs Agriculture:Kathrin Krell (1998) finds that the terms found in the reconstructed Indo-European language are not compatible with the cultural level of the Kurgans. Krell holds that the Indo-Europeans had agriculture whereas the Kurgan people were "just at a pastoral stage" and hence might not have had sedentary agricultural terms in their language, despite the fact that such terms are part of a Proto-Indo-European core vocabulary.
    No."Dinaric" have it's name because Ken Nordtvedt gave the name "Dinaric" for this haplogroup.
    "how can you claim I2a din is not Slavic?"
    Do you have any ancient DNA prove to support your Slavic hypothesis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Language and ethnicity are related.

    Ethnicity is a cultural phenomenon, and language is a very important part of culture (though not the only part).

    Race is genetic. And within races you have sub-races, or anthropological types.
    It's the opposite:ethnicity is biological and language is cultural fenomenon.

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