I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

Please present ancient A356 from Poland. Otherwise we only know it exists in Polish population now, but we don't know where it started. Can you see the difference?

Czech which has mutation I2a1b2a1a3 A356 comes from Croatia and to prove this he would have to find bones in the Balkans aged 4 or 5000 years ...Your logic..


Can you cite it?

http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/historia_salonitana_maior

It doesn't matter what they said at the border, it mattered what was written in their documents. These people are dead now and can't tell you exactly their ethnicity. I know cases that grand grand children claim to be White Croats from Poland,..

According to the record of the US immigration service at that time about 500 thousand or less people who came from Poland declared as Poles....If someone declared as White Croat or Croat, i ask you to respect it and do not talk to me fairy tales about Austrians...I am not a sheep
 
Number of people declaring Croatian ethnicity in southern Poland is... zero.

It is some fairy tale and you have not provided any evidence that she declared herself as Croatian.


Then you are probably vistulan ... it's better than become from Croats ... hahaha
 
The U.S. "Dictionary of races and peoples" (link below) mentions "Bielochrovats" as one of subdivisions of ethnic Poles:

https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofrace00unitrich#page/n0/mode/1up

Text about Polish people

Polish.png


Here is the number of declarations of Polish ancestry in U.S. pop. censuses:

1980 census - 9,366,106
1990 census - 8,228,037
2000 census - 8,977,173
2010 census - 9,569,207

By contrast Croatian ancestry was declared only by 374,241 people in 2000.

So there are 24-times as many Poles in the USA as there are Croats.

=================================
=================================

The distribution of ethnic Polish people in the early 1900s:

Direct link to map

The_Poles_Map.png


================================
================================

And here text about Poland from "The new world problems in political geography" by Isaiah Bowman, New York, 1921:

Direct link to text

Poland_after_WW1_P_O.jpg
 

It is the logic.

Good part of Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, who have an earlier mutation S17250 are White Croatian or Croatian origin ... It is irrefutably

Wrong.

Haplogroups have nothing with nations because nations are social constructions.

That haplogroup can be Croatian and Bosnian and Serbian and Romanian and Ukrainian, etc., it doesn't matter,
 
Wrong.

Haplogroups have nothing with nations because nations are social constructions.

That haplogroup can be Croatian and Bosnian and Serbian and Romanian and Ukrainian, etc., it doesn't matter,

In southern Poland and south-western Ukraine does not mention Romania, Ukraine, Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia ...

In Bosnia Serb, Croat and Bosniak who have same haplotype and common ancestor in White Croatia they could not at the same time from the same place come as Serb, Croat, Bosniak, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Romanian...They could come as a Croats who later become Bosnians, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Romanian, Serbian ... But there are still White Croatian origin... It is the logic ..

I say this for the parts of these nations not for entire populations..
 
Serbs came to the Balkans from West Slavic areas. White Serbia is mentioned in Early Medieval sources.

You still have Sorbs in Germany today, they share some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs.

Slovenes also share some ancestors with Slovaks. The similarity of names is not accidental in this case.

Slovenes used to be called Winds, which is similar to the name for West Slavs (Wends).

All these groups of course mixed with and absorbed other Slavic groups which came via Moldova & Romania.
 

Serbs came to the Balkans from West Slavic areas

Prove with genetics

White Serbia is mentioned in Early Medieval sources.

White Serbia is not mentioned anywhere

You still have Sorbs in Germany today, they share some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs.

Prove with genetics

Slovenes also share some ancestors with Slovaks.

Prove with genetics

All these groups of course mixed with and absorbed other Slavic groups which came via Moldova & Romania.


Prove with genetics

Prove with genetics

You can not prove
 
Serbs came to the Balkans from West Slavic areas. White Serbia is mentioned in Early Medieval sources.

You still have Sorbs in Germany today, they share some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs.

Slovenes also share some ancestors with Slovaks. The similarity of names is not accidental in this case.

Slovenes used to be called Winds, which is similar to the name for West Slavs (Wends).

All these groups of course mixed with and absorbed other Slavic groups which came via Moldova & Romania.

The bulk or non-slavic component of genetic Serbs today are Thracian Triballi people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

The percentage of slavic marker would be approx a quarter or less for modern serbs

One Thracian tribe called Triballi or Trivalli was situated near Danube river and in modern states of Serbia and Bulgaria. Byzantine writers called Serbs exactly by this name Triballi, and they called the rulers of the Nemanjić dynasty Triballian archonts. Great Prince of Serbia Stefan Nemanja was called archont of Triballi, king Milutin was called ruler of Triball
 
Serbs came to the Balkans from West Slavic areas. White Serbia is mentioned in Early Medieval sources.

You still have Sorbs in Germany today, they share some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs.

Slovenes also share some ancestors with Slovaks. The similarity of names is not accidental in this case.

Slovenes used to be called Winds, which is similar to the name for West Slavs (Wends).

All these groups of course mixed with and absorbed other Slavic groups which came via Moldova & Romania.


NO
only one group of Slavs enter from Moldova and Romania
the Severi, the allies of Bulgars,
the parallel route of Bal-Gurs and Severi is written down, maped etc, Severi were the numerous of all Slavs, 7 tribes from Lithuania Ruthenia to Bolga river
Severi used the mountain road through Romania, and finalize among modern Sofia till East Bulgaria, the center of modern Bulgaria, and then expand SW,
while Bulgarians of Asparuch took same time the parrarel sea shore road till their dwell in East parts of Bulgaria,
First Bulgarian Dynasty were Balgurs, and second possibly Severi

all the rest came through Hungarian planes and Moravia.

Slovenes also carry the name Carantani (black mountains people) and possibly have nothing to do with Slovakia but rather somewhere East or North of Austria

Even from the Linguistic someone can understand the origin and the road,
SerboCroatian share more Germanic in their language, and that not due to Austro-Hungarian empire, but from previous origin,
while Bulgaria shares more Latin, due to pass from Romania, and neighborhood Con/polis and Romania
offcourse than can be explained also by the previous sub-stractum.
I mean if not came from origin/home/ to destination/new-Home then it could be from a previous substractum, before Invasion/devastation/entrance
Bulgaria was among Flavia Felix bases and expand and New Rome
 
mother of Pope John Paul II declaring white Croatian Women .. It is an irrefutable fact


According to the record of the US immigration service at that time about 500 thousand or less people who came from Poland declared as Poles....If someone declared as White Croat or Croat, i ask you to respect it and do not talk to me fairy tales about Austrians...I am not a sheep

No, they didn't declare, it was written in ID document by A-H Empire authorities. Under A-H Empire there were no Polish people around Krakow, they were all White Croats. Polish people in Poland Minor never called themselves Biali Chorwaci.

When emigrants came to USA from Poland they couldn't declare anything, because they didn't speak English. They showed their documents, A-H document, and in documents it said White Croats. Honestly, they were happy to be accepted in USA. Why would they argue about their nationality with immigration officer, and in language they don't understand? Do you see the confusion now?

Please present one historical note or a map showing White Croatia in Poland, pre 1800. Otherwise your arguments don't hold much water. All clues point to A-H Empire propaganda, as a culprit of this mess. Sorry if you fell a victim of it.
 
No, they didn't declare, it was written in ID document by A-H Empire authorities. Under A-H Empire there were no Polish people around Krakow, they were all White Croats. Polish people in Poland Minor never called themselves Biali Chorwaci.

When emigrants came to USA from Poland they couldn't declare anything, because they didn't speak English. They showed their documents, A-H document, and in documents it said White Croats. Honestly, they were happy to be accepted in USA. Why would they argue about their nationality with immigration officer, and in language they don't understand? Do you see the confusion now?

Please present one historical note or a map showing White Croatia in Poland, pre 1800. Otherwise your arguments don't hold much water. All clues point to A-H Empire propaganda, as a culprit of this mess. Sorry if you fell a victim of it.


If you say that there are no maps or any data before year 1800 that in southern Poland ever existed White Croatia and White Croats how then Austro-Hungarians know about White Croatia and Croats in southern Poland and around Krakow if they not exist ..

This means that Austro Hungarians actually created White Croats and put them right in south Poland without any historical or genetic data and today it is confirmed by genetics...:LOL:

You've got problems my friend..
 
If you say that there are no maps or any data before year 1800 that in southern Poland ever existed White Croatia and White Croats how then Austro-Hungarians know about White Croatia and Croats in southern Poland and around Krakow if they not exist ..

This means that Austro Hungarians actually created White Croats and put them right in south Poland without any historical or genetic data and today it is
Finally, you got it!


confirmed by genetics...:LOL:
Confirmed are the genetic links between Slavs, but not the geographical location of ancient White Croatia.
 
Finally, you got it!

Are you kidding me..?

Why the Austrians not in southern Poland created Serbs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Bosniacs if they did not have information that there lived Croatians...

Since I first time hear that Austrians invented White Croats give me some link to read what it is about..

Austrians have created White Croats precisely at the point where is previous mutation Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype... how they did it .... magic..

Of all the places in the Austro-Hungarian empire they created Croats right there....

Stop joking around...Croatians genetic coming from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia .. it is genetically undeniable...Everything else you're talking about are stories for young children...

Reconstruction of the Stiljsko archaeological site of White Croats in Ukraine (a drawing from the publication Stiljsko gorodišče IX – počatku XI st., oseredok obščinnoji ta velikoknjazivs’koji vladi Shidnih Horvativ, see below)

A part of White Croatian site in Stiljsko, still investigated. The whole site, with environing settlements, had around 40,000 inhabitants in 9th to 11th centuries, which is more than the city of Kiev at that time!

http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats-migrating-slavic-tribe/

Austrians invented White Croats in 1800 while they had settlements and lived in the area 800 years earlier....


Nestor the Chronicler 1113
After many years had passed, Slavic people settled on the Danube, where Hungary and Bulgaria are now. From those Slavic tribes they spread to many lands, calling themselves with many names which were from grounds they stayed on. And so, leaving on the Morava river, they called themselves Moravians, and anothers as Czech. Yet another Slavic people were White Croatians, and Serbians, and Korantans. Those, when oppressed by Italians who invaded that grounds, embarked towards Vistula and stayed there calling themselves Lendians, and later Polans,
 
Most of Slavic tribes in the Balkans were East Slavs, who entered the region from Moldova-Romania (from the north-east):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

We have quite a precise description of the area inhabited by Slavs in Byzantine neighbourhood around year 500 AD from Procopius (VII: 14, 30) - who wrote that they lived north of the Danube - and Jordanes (V: 30-37) - who provided more details. He wrote (V: 34-35):

"(34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart."


Marek Dulnicz, "The Lombard Headman Called Ildigis and the Slavs" (in English), identifies those geographical locations as follows:

http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_en/autoren.php?name=Dulinicz,+Marek

Slavs_500_AD.png


1) Noviodunum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum_(castra)

2) lake Mursianus (citation from M. Dulnicz):

"Lake Mursianus was in fact, according to the majority of researchers, the vast marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube; (...) the lake or marshes in question might have extended as far as to the juncture of the Tisza and the Danube. The lake’s name was derived from the town of Mursa (present-day Osijek)."

3) Danaster = Dniester river

4) Danaper = Dnieper river

5) "Alps" = Carpathians

Source of the Vistula is located close to the present-day Bielsko-Biała: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielsko-Biała

And "the curve of the sea of Pontus [Black Sea]" was the coastline (which forms a nice curve) in the region of present-day Odessa.

So here is the area where those Slavs lived around year 500 AD, shortly before crossing the Danube and entering the Balkans:

Slavs_500_AD_c.png


=====================================

This map - from Zofia Kurnatowska's "Southern Slavs" - shows the distribution of Slavic tribes (red colour) in the Balkans in the 7th - 9th centuries:

North.png


Boundaries.png


Clear version:

North2.png


Slavs_in_Greece.png


Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi): Google Translate

Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai): Google Translate

Siedem Rodow: Google Translate

Strumincy: Google Translate

Rynchyni: Google Translate

Sagudaci: Google Translate

Draguwici: Google Translate

Welegezyci: Google Translate

Berzici: Google Translate

Smolanie: Google Translate
 
Today people with I2a1b2a1a3 haplotype are Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosnians, etc .. But if they have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 they are White Croatian origin...It is the logic.

Whether they come directly from White Croatia to Bulgaria or from Croatia remains to be determined....as well as some Czechs have earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a3 A356....these Czechs obviously come from Croatia...

http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3111/
 
Leszek Podhorodecki in "Dzieje Ukrainy" ("History of Ukraine") writes:

"(...) At the turns of the 5th and the 6th centuries the Slavs, living until that time at the Dniester River, attacked the borders of the Byzantine Empire. The whole reign of Justin (518-527) and that of Justinian (527-557) were filled with combats against the Slavs pushing south across the Danube. They were especially active in period 545-557, because at that time they started to settle en masse in conquered territories [south of the Danube]. Only the incursion of the Avars into the Black Sea steppe and the lands along the Danube [years 561 - 569], hampered - for some time - the Slavic migration. After victorious wars against [some of] Slavic tribes, the Avars penetrated into the Pannonian Basin, and established their realm there. (...)" - from page 18

And the Dniester River is here:

640px-Dniester_map.png


===============================

These are Slavic tribes ancestral to Slavic Macedonians (red lines show borders of the region of Macedonia):

Mac_Ancestors1.png


Some of those tribes became Hellenized, but Slavs were still the most numerous ethnic group in Macedonia:

Ethnic groups in Macedonia before WW1

Ethnic_groups_of_Macedonia_before_WW1.png


Salonika_Slavs.png


After WW1 at least 618,200 immigrant Anatolian Greeks settled in Macedonia (patterns of settlement of Anatolian Greeks throughout Macedonia and other regions of Greece can be seen in maps posted below, 1st map shows the proportion of Anatolian immigrants to local populations in each region):

Proportion of immigrants from Asia Minor (by region):

105_2.png


And settlements of immigrants from Asia Minor (dots):

181_6.png


Comparing the size of Greek population of southern Macedonia before WW1 (236,800) and the number of Anatolian Greek immigrants after WW1 (618,200) shows that Anatolian Greeks outnumbered Macedonian Greeks 3 to 1 in that area, and they significantly changed the ethnic makeup of that territory.

Simultaneously with the influx of at least 618,200 Anatolian Greeks, at least 130,010 of local Slavic inhabitants (out of 370,371 - rounded to 370,400 in my chart above) were deported from southern Macedonia towards northern regions of what later became Yugoslavia and to western Bulgaria. Deportations of Turks also took place. Jews (most of whom lived in the city of Salonica) were later wiped out in WW2, further decreasing the number of non-Greek minorities.

Possibly much more Slavic-speakers than 130,010 left that region after WW1 - but not all of them necessarily in organized deportations.

My next finding is that the exodus after WW1 was not the last one - because during and after the Greek Civil War (1946 - 1949) over 100,000 more Slavs from Greek Macedonia had to emigrate to Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, further decreasing the size of Slavic minority in Greece.

Yet some Slavic minority in southern (Greek) Macedonia still exists - for example according to the report of Human Rights Watch "Denying Ethnic Identity. The Macedonians of Greece", in 1992 over 65% of inhabitants of the district of Florina (Φλώρινα) described themselves as Slavic Macedonians.
 
Most of Slavic tribes in the Balkans were East Slavs, who entered the region from Moldova-Romania (from the north-east):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

We have quite a precise description of the area inhabited by Slavs in Byzantine neighbourhood around year 500 AD from Procopius (VII: 14, 30) - who wrote that they lived north of the Danube - and Jordanes (V: 30-37) - who provided more details. He wrote (V: 34-35):

"(34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart."


Marek Dulnicz, "The Lombard Headman Called Ildigis and the Slavs" (in English), identifies those geographical locations as follows:

http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_en/autoren.php?name=Dulinicz,+Marek

Slavs_500_AD.png


1) Noviodunum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum_(castra)

2) lake Mursianus (citation from M. Dulnicz):

"Lake Mursianus was in fact, according to the majority of researchers, the vast marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube; (...) the lake or marshes in question might have extended as far as to the juncture of the Tisza and the Danube. The lake’s name was derived from the town of Mursa (present-day Osijek)."

3) Danaster = Dniester river

4) Danaper = Dnieper river

5) "Alps" = Carpathians

Source of the Vistula is located close to the present-day Bielsko-Biała: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielsko-Biała

And "the curve of the sea of Pontus [Black Sea]" was the coastline (which forms a nice curve) in the region of present-day Odessa.

So here is the area where those Slavs lived around year 500 AD, shortly before crossing the Danube and entering the Balkans:

Slavs_500_AD_c.png


=====================================

This map - from Zofia Kurnatowska's "Southern Slavs" - shows the distribution of Slavic tribes (red colour) in the Balkans in the 7th - 9th centuries:

North.png


Boundaries.png


Clear version:

North2.png


Slavs_in_Greece.png


Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi): Google Translate

Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai): Google Translate

Siedem Rodow: Google Translate

Strumincy: Google Translate

Rynchyni: Google Translate

Sagudaci: Google Translate

Draguwici: Google Translate

Welegezyci: Google Translate

Berzici: Google Translate

Smolanie: Google Translate

LOL...did you learn your history from

Srbi.......narod najtariji by Olga Lukovic-Pjanovic

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=fn_F3uZ7DTEC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=Srbi.......narod+najstariji+by+Olga+Lukovic-Pjanovic&source=bl&ots=sHiGOwvGhR&sig=CrfUJi11IQSxctKdZ3wLiUsLqw8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pj9gVeamLJfv8gXT8IP4CA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=Srbi.......narod%20najstariji%20by%20Olga%20Lukovic-Pjanovic&f=false




I have not read Srbi for a long while, but IIRC, it states the tower of Babel was build by slavs, the Pharaohs where slavs, the slavs ruled all of europe up to the rhine river and bordering Italy and other fantasy things
 
Sites of three Ancient cities - Pella, Salonica and Athens - had respectively Slavic, Jewish and Albanian majorities in the 1800s.

"(...) Athens, 25 years ago [in 1830], was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. When King Otto [the Bavarian] of Greece arrived to Athens in 1830, he asked, where are the Greeks. (...)"

Source: "Greece of The Hellenes", Lucy M. J. Garnett, Page 32

Albanians were also the majority of inhabitants in large parts of the Peloponnese in the 1800s:

pelopones_ethnic.jpg

 
Herodotus was calling the Thracians second most numeorous people in the world after the Indians,if we take in mind that nowadays Baltic and Slavic language is the most close language to Thracian maybe we can answer some questions,just like Mario Alinei specialist in geo linguistics explained: we could then advance the hypothesis that Thracians was the name that Herodotus gave to the Slavs, owing to the fact the Thracians were
one of the most powerful and representative elites of Eastern Europe,
seen with Herodotus’ inevitably colonialist eyes. In a first approximation, then, the Thracians would appear to be a Southern Slavic geo-variational group, out of which
came a Bronze age elite, first dominating then extinguished.
This hypothesis could be further developed and refined in the light of the results
of research on the Thracian language which, with the caution due to the scarcity of
materials, can be so summarized:
(1) Thracian is an IE satem language, like Baltic and Slavic;
(2) as discovered by Trubachev (see above), Thracian place names show a surprising
similarity with the Baltic ones;
(3) in some cases, however, Thracian affinities seem stronger with Slavic: the Thr.
place-name suffix -dizos e -diza, for example, to which the meaning of ‘fortress’ has
been attributed on the basis of the comparison with Gr. teƭkhos ‘wall’ (IEW 244), has a
much closer counterpart in the metathetic forms of OSl. ziždom, zydati ‘to build’ zydǎ,
zidǎ ‘wall’, than in the Baltic ones (also methatetic), meaning ‘to form’. And the
vocalism of the Thr. river name Strymon and place name Stryme seems closer to Pol.
strumien ‘brook’ and OSlav. struja ‘stream’ than to Latv stràume ‘stream’ (IEW 1003).
The most plausible hypothesis would be then that Thracian was a conservative type of
Slavic, still preserving Baltic features and spoken by a peripheral group of Southern
Slavs, somehow parallel to the Northern peripheral Balts. Following the geolinguistic
well-known rule, according to which the center innovates (Danube basin) and the periphery preserves.He further more prove that Southern Slavic is older then Northern Slavic language,the migrations couldn't happen the way it is explained in the theory of 6th century,however Ken Nordvedt should give I2a din more time then just 3000 years i think is more old then that,simple doesn't fit in some recent discoveries of linguistics and archeologists,plus i does not think so I2a din can be one of the most dominant haplogroup in the Balkans and some other regions in just 3000 years,further more if I2a din was absent prior Slavic migration then who inhabit Western Balkans,was it just a waste land,i doubt so,it was pretty important Roman region,or did they genocide the previous population when they migrated,however archeological proves are missing from that kind of event,if Slavic language was first recorded in the 8th century in the Balkans doesn't mean they migrated then,it mean they start to write,Albanian is firstly attested in the 15th,Romanian in the 16th century but none mention any migrations or "invasions" plus Balkan Slavs has only 5% of R1a clades that dominate Northern Slavs,all rest of R1a is of much older migrations,how then was that migration happening.
 
Last edited:
Serbs came to the Balkans from West Slavic areas. White Serbia is mentioned in Early Medieval sources.

You still have Sorbs in Germany today, they share some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs.

Slovenes also share some ancestors with Slovaks. The similarity of names is not accidental in this case.

Slovenes used to be called Winds, which is similar to the name for West Slavs (Wends).

All these groups of course mixed with and absorbed other Slavic groups which came via Moldova & Romania.

Not true at all,maybe not.
 

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