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Thread: I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

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    [QUOTE=gyms;458272]No."Dinaric" have it's name because Ken Nordtvedt gave the name "Dinaric" for this haplogroup.
    Do you have any ancient DNA prove to support your Slavic hypothesis?[/QUOTE
    "how can you claim I2a din is not Slavic
    For South Slavs or Dinaric Slavs since modern antropology exist,there is even sub type of Caucasian race in Europe called Dinaric race since 20th century which stretch even much further outside Dinaric Alps and Balkan peninsula,Denarius is name of Roman coins,Dinar was name of our money since 13th century,Dinar is the currency we nowadays use,don't be so smart bro it has much longer history and meaning then you think so,has nothing to do with Ken Nordvedt Lol
    Last edited by Милан М.; 07-06-15 at 23:03.

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    Are we talking about Dinaric Alps or haplogroups?Don't mix upp things!Y haplogroup I2a has nothing to do with anthropology (Y chromosome is sex chromosome).Physical appearance is determined by autosomal genes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosome
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    It's the opposite:ethnicity is biological and language is cultural fenomenon.
    RACE (!) is biological. Ethnicity is cultural. Language is... linguistic, and also part of culture (but only part of it).

    The reason for correlation between ethnicity and ancestry is that parents transmit culture on their children (usually).

    Do you have any ancient DNA prove to support your Slavic hypothesis?
    So far there is no aDNA evidence that I1 or R1b U106 are Germanic, so why do you demand aDNA proof that I2a-Din is Slavic?

    Maybe this will change by 2019:

    "This year [April 2014] begins a major research program, the goal of which is to examine ancient DNA from several dozen archaeological sites from the area of Poland. This project is supposed to test ancient DNA of inhabitants of Poland from pre-Roman, Roman, early Medieval and Medieval times and compare it to DNA of modern inhabitants. Research is going to last at least 5 years, its authors are - among others - prof. Hanna Koćka-Krenz and prof. Janusz Piontek."

    First of all you should understand that haplogroups may not be restricted to one ethnic group, but may be shared by many.

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    The term ethnic is derived from the Greek word ἔθνος ethnos (more precisely, from the adjective ἐθνικός ethnikos,[3] which was loaned into Latin as ethnicus). The inherited English-language term for this concept is folk, used alongside the latinate people since the late Middle English period.
    In Early Modern English and until the mid 19th century, ethnic was used to mean heathen or pagan (in the sense of disparate "nations" which did not yet participate in the Christian oikumene), as the Septuagint used ta ethne ("the nations") to translate the Hebrew goyim "the nations, non-Hebrews, non-Jews".[4] The Greek term in early antiquity (Homeric Greek) could refer to any large group, a host of men, a band of comrades as well as a swarm or flock of animals. In Classical Greek, the term took on a meaning comparable to the concept now expressed by "ethnic group", mostly translated as "nation, people"; only in Hellenistic Greek did the term tend to become further narrowed to refer to "foreign" or "barbarous" nations in particular (whence the later meaning "heathen, pagan").[5]
    In the 19th century, the term came to be used in the sense of "peculiar to a race, people or nation", in a return to the original Greek meaning. The sense of "different cultural groups", and in US English "racial, cultural or national minority group" arises in the 1930s to 1940s,[6] serving as a replacement of the term race which had earlier taken this sense but was now becoming deprecated due to its association with ideological racism. The abstract ethnicity had been used for "paganism" in the 18th century, but now came to [be] express the meaning of an "ethnic character" (first recorded 1953). The term ethnic group was first recorded in 1935 and entered the Oxford English Dictionary in 1972.[7] The term nationality depending on context may either be used synonymously with ethnicity, or synonymously with citizenship (in a sovereign state). The process that results in the emergence of an ethnicity is called ethnogenesis, a term in use in ethnological literature since about 1950.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

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    Since the second half of the 20th century, the associations of race with the ideologies and theories that grew out of the work of 19th-century anthropologists and physiologists has led to the use of the word race itself becoming problematic. Although still used in general contexts, race has often been replaced by other words which are less ambiguous and emotionally charged, such as populations, people(s), ethnic groups, or communities, depending on context.[18][19]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)

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    Various modern cultural studies and social theories have investigated cultural identity. In recent decades, a new form of identification has emerged which breaks down the understanding of the individual as a coherent whole subject into a collection of various cultural identifiers. These cultural identifiers may be the result of various conditions including: location, gender, race, history, nationality, language, sexuality, religious beliefs, ethnicity, aesthetics, and even food.[2] As one author writes, recognizing both coherence and fragmentation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_identity

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    [QUOTE=gyms;458277]Are we talking about Dinaric Alps or haplogroups?Don't mix upp things!Y haplogroup I2a has nothing to do with anthropology (Y chromosome is sex chromosome).Physical appearance is determined by autosomal genes.

    For whatever you are talking about,i am just telling you how older is the name Dinar-Dinaric-Dinarides then Ken Nordvedt itself,and from where the name of the haplogroup is derrived from,because is the most frequent in that region,and yes that region is the most frequent for Dinaric race as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Various modern cultural studies and social theories have investigated cultural identity. In recent decades, a new form of identification has emerged which breaks down the understanding of the individual as a coherent whole subject into a collection of various cultural identifiers. These cultural identifiers may be the result of various conditions including: location, gender, race, history, nationality, language, sexuality, religious beliefs, ethnicity, aesthetics, and even food.[2] As one author writes, recognizing both coherence and fragmentation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_identity
    You first deny I2a din being Slavic and being not Indo-European,what are Slavs,and what is Indo-European?The Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group living in Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Southeast Europe, North Asia and Central Asia, who speak the Indo-European Slavic languages, and share, to varying degrees, certain cultural traits and historical backgrounds.
    Are you playing the smart guy here now?or proving the opposite,what is Slavic and Indo-European please enlighten me?

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    The Gagauz language belongs to the Oghuz branch of the Turkic languages, which also includes the Azerbaijani, Turkish, and Turkmen languages. The Gagauz language is particularly close to the Balkan Turkish dialects spoken in Greece, northeastern Bulgaria, and in the Kumanovo and Bitola areas of Macedonia. The Balkan Turkic languages, including Gagauz, are a typologically interesting case, because they are closely related to Turkish and at the same time contain a North-Turkic (Tatar or Kypchak) element besides the main South-Turkic (Oghuz) element (Pokrovskaya,1964). The modern Gagauz language has two dialects: central (or ‘‘Bulgar’’) and southern (or maritime) (Pokrovskaya, 1964; Gordon, 2005).

    They have 30-34% of I2a-"Din".Are they Slavs?

    "Are you playing the smart guy here now?"

    Please...don't.

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    [QUOTE=Милан М.;458285]
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Are we talking about Dinaric Alps or haplogroups?Don't mix upp things!Y haplogroup I2a has nothing to do with anthropology (Y chromosome is sex chromosome).Physical appearance is determined by autosomal genes.

    For whatever you are talking about,i am just telling you how older is the name Dinar-Dinaric-Dinarides then Ken Nordvedt itself,and from where the name of the haplogroup is derrived from,because is the most frequent in that region,and yes that region is the most frequent for Dinaric race as well.


    The concept of a Dinaric race originated with Joseph Deniker, but became most closely associated with the writings of Carleton S. Coon and Nazi eugenicist Hans F. K. Günther. The term was derived from the Dinaric Alps (the western part of the Balkan Peninsula) which was supposed to be the principal habitat.
    According to Jan Czekanowski, the Dinaric race is a mixed type consisting of Nordic race and Armenoid race, what he proves by anthropological research involving geographical data, cephalic index, and characteristic racial features. He states:
    "The Dinaric type is characterized by quite light skin, dark hair from dark brown to dark blonde, and a wide range of eye color; tall stature, a brachycephalic skull, long face, a very narrow and prominent nose, sometimes aquiline; a slender body type, and very big feet."
    Characteristics were defined as very tall, mostly mesomorph bodily build, with relatively long legs and short trunk and a long arm span. The overall anatomy of the head was said to be brachycephalic to hyperbrachycephalic (Cranial index: 81-86) whereby the condition is caused by both rather high breadth of the head and a medium length of the neurocranium, whose back part is often somewhat flattened (planoccipital).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The Gagauz language belongs to the Oghuz branch of the Turkic languages, which also includes the Azerbaijani, Turkish, and Turkmen languages. The Gagauz language is particularly close to the Balkan Turkish dialects spoken in Greece, northeastern Bulgaria, and in the Kumanovo and Bitola areas of Macedonia. The Balkan Turkic languages, including Gagauz, are a typologically interesting case, because they are closely related to Turkish and at the same time contain a North-Turkic (Tatar or Kypchak) element besides the main South-Turkic (Oghuz) element (Pokrovskaya,1964). The modern Gagauz language has two dialects: central (or ‘‘Bulgar’’) and southern (or maritime) (Pokrovskaya, 1964; Gordon, 2005).


    They have 30-34% of I2a-"Din".Are they Slavs?

    "Are you playing the smart guy here now?"

    Please...don't.
    So if we trace haplogroups and language what we can construct out of that?there is bunch other haplogroups among Slavs and opposite in all people speaking different languages,why you mix haplogroups and languages??this are either the descendants of Cumans from which Vlad the Dracul,some Hungarian nobles Elizabeth the Cuman was later and second Bulgarian dynasty trace their roots from,some I2a din perhaps went among them lol known as Mamluks later in Egypt,many were employing them as soldiers during middle ages,quite skilled wariors,some migrated escaping the Mongol yoke accepted Christianity and stay there,they had ones empire stretching all over the steppe,or are just Turkified while Ottoman empire but keeping their faith,tell me now which haplogroup is SLAVIC? LOL

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    [QUOTE=gyms;458290]
    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post



    The concept of a Dinaric race originated with Joseph Deniker, but became most closely associated with the writings of Carleton S. Coon and Nazi eugenicist Hans F. K. Günther. The term was derived from the Dinaric Alps (the western part of the Balkan Peninsula) which was supposed to be the principal habitat.
    According to Jan Czekanowski, the Dinaric race is a mixed type consisting of Nordic race and Armenoid race, what he proves by anthropological research involving geographical data, cephalic index, and characteristic racial features. He states:
    "The Dinaric type is characterized by quite light skin, dark hair from dark brown to dark blonde, and a wide range of eye color; tall stature, a brachycephalic skull, long face, a very narrow and prominent nose, sometimes aquiline; a slender body type, and very big feet."
    Characteristics were defined as very tall, mostly mesomorph bodily build, with relatively long legs and short trunk and a long arm span. The overall anatomy of the head was said to be brachycephalic to hyperbrachycephalic (Cranial index: 81-86) whereby the condition is caused by both rather high breadth of the head and a medium length of the neurocranium, whose back part is often somewhat flattened (planoccipital).
    Yeah this is from Wikipedia perhaps,what is your point here?Even this is showing how the term Dinaric race precede the name of haplogroup I2a dinaric,given because of that region cause is the most frequent there,what is not clear?

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    "what is not clear?"

    Everything is clear...It can't be clearer !

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    If I understand correctly, Gyms is claiming that R1a and I2a came from the east with Mongols or Turks.

    Even though we have R1a and I2a in ancient DNA of hunter-gatherers who lived 8000 - 6000 years ago in Europe.

    We also know that R1a expanded eastward from Europe during the Copper-Bronze Ages, as Indo-Iranians and Proto-Tocharians.

    ==================================

    Karelian Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from 7500 years ago - the oldest R1a sample found so far - was R1a-YP1272. So he was not THE ancestor of Indo-European branch, but it is highly unlikely that he was alone in that region. Most certainly other hunter-gatherers lived not so far from Karelia (by "not so far" I mean not a few kilometers away, but in general - Eastern Europe; because hunters used to travel long distances, so any such hunter could travel hundreds or thousands of kilometers during his lifetime).

    R1a-YP1272 was the direct ancestral subclade to R1a-M198. Later - some 8400 years ago - M198 begot M417. Then 5400 years ago (ybp) R1a-M417 branch (northern Proto-Indo-European) begot R1a-CTS4385 (north-western European) and R1a-Z645. Then 4900 ybp Z645 begot Z283 (north-eastern European) and Z93 (Indo-Iranian). No more than a few generations later (4900 ybp) Z283 begot Z282, and that 4900 ybp begot Z280 (Balto-Slavic), 4600 ybp it begot M458 (West Slavic) and 4500 ybp it begot Z284 (Scandinavian / Proto-Germanic). While 4700 ybp Z93 begot Z94 (Indo-Aryan - a marker of Aryans who invaded India).

    Tocharians (Tarim Mummies) were not Z93, but another subclade. It is not certain yet what subclade they were, but it was under M198 - so it was Indo-European. They were tested positive for M198 and negative for Z93. Most certainly they were also under M417, but exact subclade has not been tested yet. Here is Tocharian Y-DNA (all seven out of seven males were R1a, and not Z93):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr5Kq56heIs



    And a video about Tocharians (in case if Gyms starts claiming that they were "Mongoloid" or "Turanid" or something):



    ===============================

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If I understand correctly, Gyms is claiming that R1a and I2a came from the east with Mongols or Turks.

    Even though we have R1a and I2a in ancient DNA of hunter-gatherers who lived 8000 - 6000 years ago in Europe.

    We also know that R1a expanded eastward from Europe during the Bronze Age, with Indo-Iranians and Proto-Tocharians.
    Of course.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 07-06-15 at 22:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    R1a people were those known like Aryans and created the greatest cultures in Persia,India at least today can be proven with genetics.
    No, it's NOT. The greatest cultures in West Asia (Media, Persia) and India were created mostly by J2a folks!

    R1a-Z93 and J2a & G2a moved from Western Asia into CentralSouth Asia and found some Aryan civilization in Indus Valley, but those 'Aryans' came from West Asia, and were mostly Caucaso-Gedrosia folks!

    Also, R1a in West Asia is NATIVE to West Asia.


    The so called ancient 'Aryans' were most likely for the greatest part J2a folks. J2a is an 'Aryan' marker...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, it's NOT. The greatest cultures in West Asia (Media, Persia) and India were created mostly by J2a folks!

    R1a-Z93 and J2a & G2a moved from Western Asia into CentralSouth Asia and found some Aryan civilization in Indus Valley, but those 'Aryans' came from West Asia, and were mostly Caucaso-Gedrosia folks!

    Also, R1a in West Asia is NATIVE to West Asia.


    The so called ancient 'Aryans' were most likely for the greatest part J2a folks. J2a is an 'Aryan' marker...
    J2 haplogroup in the Middle East are Semitic speaking people,i am not denying the Semitic cultures but Indo-European speech was brought there by R1a people who migrated from the Kurgan cultures trough Abashevo culture in Iran and India,those people become known as Aryans.. Persia was found only later,at least how geneticists explain the migration of R1a and Indo-European language researchers,before that there wasn't any Persia,btw what about I2a among Kurds,is it Dinaric?
    http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ration_map.jpg

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    If I understand correctly, Gyms is claiming that R1a and I2a came from the east with Mongols or Turks.
    "

    Claming?Where?You don't undestand me correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    J2 haplogroup in the Middle East are Semitic speaking people,Indo-European speech was brought there by R1a people who migrated from the Kurgan cultures trough Eurasia in Iran and India, Persia was found only later,at least how geneticists explain the migration of R1a and Indo-European language researchers
    http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ration_map.jpg
    No, some subclades of hg. E and J1 are Semitic. R1b folks who migrated from Maykop and Leyla Tepe into Yamnaya were FIRST Indo-Europeans IN Europe. R1b folks from West Asia Indo-Europized folks in Europe.

    REAL Semites, like Arabs in Saudi Arabia and the Arabian Desert don't have much of J2a. They have E and J1.


    Also, the first R1a was born in West Asia. the most oldest markers of R1a (like mine) have been found in West Asia. My R1a* marker is just native to my homeland.


    Kurgan cultures in West Asia are OLDER than kurgan cultures in Europe. Kurgan in Europe is very young...

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    J2a is an Aryan marker and found many civilizations, like Sumerian Mesopotamian Civilizations, Rome, ancient Greece, Egypt, Media, Persia, BMAC and other minor Aryan civilizations in CentralSouth Asia and Indus Valley.

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    I still can't understand why some Slavic folks just can’t accept that Slavonic people don’t have ancient history at all. Just stop trying to steal ancient history form other races. Sometimes the attitude of the Slavonic people resemble me of the attitude of Turkic Turanic people, who also don't have any ancient history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, some subclades of hg. E and J1 are Semitic. R1b folks who migrated from Maykop and Leyla Tepe into Yamnaya were FIRST Indo-Europeans IN Europe. R1b folks from West Asia Indo-Europized folks in Europe.

    REAL Semites, like Arabs in Saudi Arabia and the Arabian Desert don't have much of J2a. They have E and J1.


    Also, the first R1a was born in West Asia. the most oldest markers of R1a (like mine) have been found in West Asia. My R1a* marker is just native to my homeland.


    Kurgan cultures in West Asia are OLDER than kurgan cultures in Europe. Kurgan in Europe is very young...
    No they are not older you have on the map,R1a is better candidate for IE speech than R1b,IE was brought from Europe in Iran and India or might be from Anatolia with agriculture not other way arround,however it's not proven yet who is responsible for IE, might be from Anatolia and Old Europe later spread in the Kurgans with agriculture then there,Kurgans were mostly pastoral,R1b brought Etruscan and Basque language all non IE,but however Indo-Aryan R1a migrations were real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I still can't understand why some Slavic folks just can’t accept that Slavonic people don’t have ancient history at all. Just stop trying to steal ancient history form other races. Sometimes the attitude of the Slavonic people resemble me of the attitude of Turkic Turanic people, who also don't have any ancient history...
    Kurd don't be mad we are talking about genetics here not about ethnolinguistic groups,the term Slav it's coined in 6th century and later in the 19th sure we have ancient history prior,even enough to steal from us and rename certain people and events,from Vladivostok to Germany then to Greece sure it's a history,get that independence there and don't whine.

  25. #100
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    No they are not older you have on the map,R1a is better candidate for IE speech than R1b,IE was brought from Europe in Iran and India or might be from Anatolia with agriculture not other way arround,however it's not proven yet who is responsible for IE, might be from Anatolia and Old Europe later spread in the Kurgans with agriculture then there,Kurgans were mostly pastoral, R1b brought Etruscan and Basque language all non IE, but however Indo-Aryan R1a migrations were real.
    THe oldest known KURGAN in West Asia is the Göbekli Tepe, it's 12000 years old. I don't think we have got older Kurgans in Europe. Also, Kurrgans in Leyla Tepe and Maykop are older than Kurgans in the Yamnaya horizon. They found R1b in Yamnaya and not R1a at all. Indo-European languages IN EUROPE spread from Yamnaya. Yamnaya was just an area ( or a missing link) between West Asian and Europe. But Indo-European people in West Asia were much, much older than Indo-European speakers in Yamaya.

    R1a in West Asia ad India is very different from R1a in Europe. R1a in Europe is nor really an Indo-European marker, it's just an Indo-Europized marker.

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