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Thread: I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    Kurd don't be mad we are talking about genetics here not about ethnolinguistic groups,the term Slav it's coined in 6th century and later in the 19th sure we have ancient history prior,even enough to steal from us and rename certain people and events,from Vladivostok to Germany then to Greece sure it's a history,get that independence there and don't whine.
    Yeah, DNA and haplogroups don't lie! Just follow the patterns and migrations of R1b, J2a, R1a* etc. I thought that when others build civilization, great cities and empires, Slavonic or proto-Slavonc people still lived in swamps and were cannibals or something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    THe oldest know KURGAN in West Asia is the Göbekli Tepe, it's 12000 years old. I don't think we have got older Kurgans in Europe. Also, Kurrgans in Leyla Tepe and Maykop are older than Kurgans in the Yamnaya horizon. They found R1b in Yamnaya and not R1a at all. Indo-European languages IN EUROPE spread from Yamnaya. Yamnaya was just an area ( or a missing link) between West Asian and Europe. But Indo-European people in West Asia were much, much older than Indo-European speakers in Yamaya.

    R1a in West Asia ad India is very different from R1a in Europe. R1a in Europe is nor really an Indo-European marker, it's just an Indo-Europized marker.
    Of course it is different marker they separated long ago,that's a hypothesis of IE only,don't you understand it's not proven who was responsible for IE,maybe Autochtonous people of Europe and Anatolia was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yeah, DNA and haplogroups don't lie! Just follow the patterns and migrations of R1b, J2a, R1a* etc. I thought that when others build civilization, great cities and empires, Slavonic or proto-Slavonc people still lived in swamps and were cannibals or something
    You never had country and independence and talking about Slavonic people lol how many Kurds have R1a just like you,get a life frustrated kid and go fight ISIS.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 01-06-15 at 22:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    Of course it is different marker they separated long ago,that's a hypothesis of IE only,don't you understand it's not proven who was responsible for IE,maybe Autochtonous people of Europe and Anatolia was.
    R1a in Slavs is very different from R1a in Indians. Also, it's almost certain that the original R1a* was born in West Asia and not in Europe. The was no such thing as a massive migration out of Europe. We have only migrations INTO Europe.



    according to Herodotus or Pliny the Elder, Slavs were cannibals!

    " Androphagi (Ancient Greek : for "man-eaters") was an ancient nation of cannibals north of Scythia (according to Herodotus), probably in the forests between the upper waters of the Dnepr and Don. These people may have assisted the Scythians when King Darius the Great led a Persian invasion into what is now Southern Russia to punish the Scythians for their raids into the Achaemenid Empire."

    Herodotus first wrote of andropophagi in his Histories, where he described them as one of several tribes near Scythia. An extra note indicates that the andropophagi are cannibals, as reflected in their name: "The manners of the Androphagi are more savage than those of any other race. They neither observe justice, nor are governed, by any laws. They are nomads, and their dress is Scythian; but the language which they speak is peculiar to themselves. Unlike any other nation in these parts, they are cannibals."

    Pliny the Elder later wrote in his Naturalis Historia that the same cannibals near Scythia wore the scalps of men on their ches: "The Androphagi, whom we have previously mentioned as dwelling ten days' journey beyond the Borysthenes, according to the account of Isigonus of Nicæa, were in the habit of drinking out of human skulls, and placing the scalps, with the hair attached, upon their breasts, like so many napkins."
    "


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphagi



    When MY direct ancestors the Medes build an groundbreaking and very influential civilization for the whole mankind not even that long time ago, ancestors of the Slavonic people were Cannibals! FACT !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    So how many Kurds has R1a just like you lol get a life frustrated kid and go fight ISIS,good day.
    So, how many Slavonic people are carrying Aryan J2a or even R1b that got Indo-Europized almost the entire Europe? Because R1b FROM West Asia Indo-Europized R1a, I1, N1c1, I2a etc in Europe.


    And now go and read what Herodotus wrote about Slavonic cannibal ancestors, what he wrote about my direct ancestors the Medes who were native to Kurdistan and then go crying to your mommy...

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    It's very ridiculous to believe that some primitive CANNIBALS (according to Herodotus or Pliny the Elder, not according to me) from NorthEastern Europe were influential to the most advanced cultures (with high human values) in West Asia and CentralSouth Asia. But some people are FREE to live in their own world and believe in their own fairytales. These are grandiose delusions: grandeur delusionale, LMAO !



    "
    Androphagi was an ancient nation of cannibals north of Scythia, probably in the forests between the upper waters of the Dnepr and Don. These people may have assisted the Scythians when King Darius the Great led a Persian invasion into what is now Southern Russia to punish the Scythians for their raids into the Achaemenid Empire."

    "The manners of the Androphagi are more savage than those of any other race. They neither observe justice, nor are governed, by any laws. They are nomads, and their dress is Scythian; but the language which they speak is peculiar to themselves. Unlike any other nation in these parts, they are cannibals."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    So, how many Slavonic people carry J2a or even R1b that got Indo-Europized almost the entire Europe? Because R1b FROM West Asia Indo-Europized R1a, I1, N1c1, I2a etc in Europe.


    And now go and read what Herodotus wrote about Slavonic cannibal ancestors, what he wrote about my direct ancestors the Medes who were native to Kurdistan and then go crying to your mommy...
    Medes your ancestors lol frustrated Kurdish highlander Persian and Turkish slave without own country ever in history talking about history of Slavs LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    Medes your ancestors lol frustrated Kurdish highlander Persian and Turkish slave without own country ever in history talking about history of Slavs LMAO
    Yeah, the Medes are our DIRECT ancestors. My people have still the same culture, language and religion of the Medes. I have my own country, my country is called Ezdixan (Kurdistan). And it's true that Kurds are slaves of Turks, Persians etc. because of the USA, but for how long? In a very near future Persians, Arabs, Turks and the whole ISLAM in the ME will be defeated. But, in fact, ALSO Turks, Arabs are SLAVES of America. And do you really thing that your country is independent and not a slave of somebody?

    At the end of the day, we are all slaves of America!



    And no, Slavonic ancestors were not slaves, they were just CANNIBALS dude...

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    [QUOTE=Милан М.;458275]
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    No."Dinaric" have it's name because Ken Nordtvedt gave the name "Dinaric" for this haplogroup.
    Do you have any ancient DNA prove to support your Slavic hypothesis?[/QUOTE
    "how can you claim I2a din is not Slavic?"

    Dinaric is name for South Slavs or Dinaric Slavs since modern antropology exist,there is even sub type of Caucasian race in Europe called Dinaric race since 20th century which stretch even much further outside Dinaric Alps and Balkan peninsula,Denarius is name of Roman coins,Dinar was name of our money since 13th century,Dinar is the currency we nowadays use,don't be so smart bro it has much longer history and meaning then you think so,has nothing to do with Ken Nordvedt Lol
    What is your prove to support the theory of Slavic migration which was created in the 19th century National Romaniticism times?widely rejected today among non "ignorant" or non biased scholars.
    Dinaric is a geographical term , same as Alpine, Iberian, Scandinavian etc..................it has nothing to do with which race, ethnicity, language or religion reside in the term
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    RACE (!) is biological. Ethnicity is cultural. Language is... linguistic, and also part of culture (but only part of it).

    The reason for correlation between ethnicity and ancestry is that parents transmit culture on their children (usually).



    So far there is no aDNA evidence that I1 or R1b U106 are Germanic, so why do you demand aDNA proof that I2a-Din is Slavic?

    Maybe this will change by 2019:

    "This year [April 2014] begins a major research program, the goal of which is to examine ancient DNA from several dozen archaeological sites from the area of Poland. This project is supposed to test ancient DNA of inhabitants of Poland from pre-Roman, Roman, early Medieval and Medieval times and compare it to DNA of modern inhabitants. Research is going to last at least 5 years, its authors are - among others - prof. Hanna Koćka-Krenz and prof. Janusz Piontek."

    First of all you should understand that haplogroups may not be restricted to one ethnic group, but may be shared by many.
    Language is not culture, language is only a tool for communication..............you speak English and you are not classified as English culture are you!

    languages evolve over time, English today is different to English 200 years ago, which is different to English 200 years before that etc etc ................how can it represent culture if it evolves and changes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Language is not culture, language is only a tool for communication..............you speak English and you are not classified as English culture are you!
    You always confuse culture with ethnic self designation. Furthermore, where did you get an idea that a person need to belong only to one culture?
    One can also identify him/herself as belonging to more than one ethnicity.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, defined by everything from language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts. The Center for Advance Research on Language Acquisition goes a step further, defining culture as shared patterns of behaviors and interactions, cognitive constructs and understanding that are learned by socialization. Thus, it can be seen as the growth of a group identity fostered by social patterns unique to the group.
    The word "culture" derives from a French term, which in turn derives from the Latin "colere," which means to tend to the earth and grow, or cultivation and nurture. "It shares its etymology with a number of other words related to actively fostering growth," Cristina De Rossi, an anthropologist at Barnet and Southgate College in London, told Live Science.


    http://www.livescience.com/21478-wha...f-culture.html

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    Culture
    Some definitions
    Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving. Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
    Culture is communication, communication is culture.
    Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
    A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
    Culture is symbolic communication. Some of its symbols include a group's skills, knowledge, attitudes, values, and motives. The meanings of the symbols are learned and deliberately perpetuated in a society through its institutions.
    Culture consists of patterns, explicit and implicit, of and for behavior acquired and transmitted by symbols, constituting the distinctive achievement of human groups, including their embodiments in artifacts; the essential core of culture consists of traditional ideas and especially their attached values; culture systems may, on the one hand, be considered as products of action, on the other hand, as conditioning influences upon further action.
    Culture is the sum of total of the learned behavior of a group of people that are generally considered to be the tradition of that people and are transmitted from generation to generation.
    Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from Another.

    https://www.tamu.edu/faculty/choudhury/culture.html

    What is Culture?

    CARLA’s Definition

    For the purposes of the Intercultural Studies Project, culture is defined as the shared patterns of behaviors and interactions, cognitive constructs, and affective understanding that are learned through a process of socialization. These shared patterns identify the members of a culture group while also distinguishing those of another group.

    Other Definitions of Culture


    Banks, J.A., Banks, & McGee, C. A. (1989). Multicultural education. Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon.
    "Most social scientists today view culture as consisting primarily of the symbolic, ideational, and intangible aspects of human societies. The essence of a culture is not its artifacts, tools, or other tangible cultural elements but how the members of the group interpret, use, and perceive them. It is the values, symbols, interpretations, and perspectives that distinguish one people from another in modernized societies; it is not material objects and other tangible aspects of human societies. People within a culture usually interpret the meaning of symbols, artifacts, and behaviors in the same or in similar ways."
    Damen, L. (1987). Culture Learning: The Fifth Dimension on the Language Classroom. Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley.
    "Culture: learned and shared human patterns or models for living; day- to-day living patterns. these patterns and models pervade all aspects of human social interaction. Culture is mankind's primary adaptive mechanism" (p. 367).
    Hofstede, G. (1984). National cultures and corporate cultures. In L.A. Samovar & R.E. Porter (Eds.), Communication Between Cultures. Belmont, CA: Wadsworth.
    "Culture is the collective programming of the mind which distinguishes the members of one category of people from another." (p. 51).
    Kluckhohn, C., & Kelly, W.H. (1945). The concept of culture. In R. Linton (Ed.). The Science of Man in the World Culture. New York. (pp. 78-105).
    "By culture we mean all those historically created designs for living, explicit and implicit, rational, irrational, and nonrational, which exist at any given time as potential guides for the behavior of men."
    Kroeber, A.L., & Kluckhohn, C. (1952). Culture: A critical review of concepts and definitions. Harvard University Peabody Museum of American Archeology and Ethnology Papers 47.
    " Culture consists of patterns, explicit and implicit, of and for behavior acquired and transmitted by symbols, constituting the distinctive achievements of human groups, including their embodiments in artifacts; the essential core of culture consists of traditional (i.e. historically derived and selected) ideas and especially their attached values; culture systems may, on the one hand, be considered as products of action, and on the other as conditioning elements of further action."
    Lederach, J.P. (1995). Preparing for peace: Conflict transformation across cultures. Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press.
    "Culture is the shared knowledge and schemes created by a set of people for perceiving, interpreting, expressing, and responding to the social realities around them" (p. 9).
    Linton, R. (1945). The Cultural Background of Personality. New York.
    "A culture is a configuration of learned behaviors and results of behavior whose component elements are shared and transmitted by the members of a particular society" (p. 32).
    Parson, T. (1949). Essays in Sociological Theory. Glencoe, IL.
    "Culture...consists in those patterns relative to behavior and the products of human action which may be inherited, that is, passed on from generation to generation independently of the biological genes" (p. 8).
    Useem, J., & Useem, R. (1963). Human Organizations, 22(3).
    "Culture has been defined in a number of ways, but most simply, as the learned and shared behavior of a community of interacting human beings" (p. 169).

    http://www.carla.umn.edu/culture/definitions.html

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    THe oldest known KURGAN in West Asia is the Göbekli Tepe, it's 12000 years old. I don't think we have got older Kurgans in Europe. Also, Kurrgans in Leyla Tepe and Maykop are older than Kurgans in the Yamnaya horizon. They found R1b in Yamnaya and not R1a at all. Indo-European languages IN EUROPE spread from Yamnaya. Yamnaya was just an area ( or a missing link) between West Asian and Europe. But Indo-European people in West Asia were much, much older than Indo-European speakers in Yamaya.

    R1a in West Asia ad India is very different from R1a in Europe. R1a in Europe is nor really an Indo-European marker, it's just an Indo-Europized marker.
    Kurgans are supposed to be grave mounts. Göbekli Tepe is not a grave mount in the same sense. It was some sort of ceremonial site, possibly associated with burials. The function seems different as it was used a long time, many centuries. I think calling it "the oldest kurgan" is not in the least warranted.

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    [QUOTE=Sile;458331][QUOTE=Милан М.;458275]

    Dinaric is a geographical term , same as Alpine, Iberian, Scandinavian etc..................it has nothing to do with which race, ethnicity, language or religion reside in the term[/QUOT

    Dinaric race exist or have existed at least for physical anthropologists in the early to mid-20th century,and doesn't matter if he is from that region or beyond,Balkan peninsula or Western Balkans would be geographic term not Dinaric,that's name of mountains.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Kurgans are supposed to be grave mounts. Göbekli Tepe is not a grave mount in the same sense. It was some sort of ceremonial site, possibly associated with burials. The function seems different as it was used a long time, many centuries. I think calling it "the oldest kurgan" is not in the least warranted.
    Yeah Gobekli tepe are so called Tells,not Tumulus like in the Kurgans which later spread all over Europe,but quite interesting only in the Balkans appear Tells like in Anatolia and Mid East,in the Balkan sprachbund,Greek,Albanian,Romanian,Slavic the Tells are called Mogila also appear in other Slavic languages.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Everyone knows what Dinaric is.
    Haplogrup I2a is not native in the Balkan.The nickname "Din" was used for the first time by Ken Nordtvedt for pracical reasons.

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    J2a is an Aryan marker and found many civilizations, like Sumerian Mesopotamian Civilizations, .... Egypt, ... Indus Valley.
    Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Egypt and Indus Valley were NOT Aryan civilizations.

    As for the origin of Indo-Iranians - read Keyser 2009:

    http://hamagmongol.narod.ru/library/keyser_2009_e.pdf

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    Sumerian was a... Sumerian civilization. Sumerian language was NOT Indo-European, neither was it Semitic. But Sumerians quickly integrated with Akkadians - who were Semitic. Most of civilizations that followed, were Semitic. This video nicely explains it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltYnG-V18Dk


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You always confuse culture with ethnic self designation. Furthermore, where did you get an idea that a person need to belong only to one culture?
    One can also identify him/herself as belonging to more than one ethnicity.
    I think you are confused
    example:
    there is British culture which has English culture and welsh culture and scottish culture and irish culture

    inside english culture you have , cornish culture, wessex culture, anglian culture etc etc

    and we can further drill down into these cultures

    ethnicity and culture are different

    a person can belong to a few cultures, but not many cultures

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Egypt and Indus Valley were NOT Aryan civilizations.

    As for the origin of Indo-Iranians - read Keyser 2009:

    http://hamagmongol.narod.ru/library/keyser_2009_e.pdf
    According to the ancient Greeks the Medes were 'Aryan' people. Ancient Greek wrtiers mentioned only the Medes Aryan. Slavic cannibal ancestors (Androphagi) were NEVER called Aryans by anybody. It is written, and it's TRUE history. The Medes were children of Mitanni. Mitanni predate people who wrote Rig Veda. People from West Asia gave birth to BMAC. And from BMAC Aryans invaded India. This is also a historic FACT. It was the first time ever when the Aryans were ever mentioned. Mitanni were descendants of the Sumerians. Sumerians were the very first ancestors of the Aryans who were mentioned by the ancient Greek writers. Sumerian civilization was the FIRST real "Aryan" civilization and it is from the Northern parts of the Mesopotamia.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sumerian was a... Sumerian civilization. Sumerian language was NOT Indo-European, neither was it Semitic. But Sumerians quickly integrated with Akkadians - who were Semitic. Most of civilizations that followed, were Semitic. This video nicely explains it
    I don't watch bull.

    First of all, Indo-Europeans don't equal Aryans. Aryans were only known as those who spoke an 'Iranic' language, like Kurdish and Persian. The only people who still can call themselves the true descendants of the 'Aryans' are Kurds, Iranians (Persians, Gilaki and Mazandarani people) maybe some minor tribes like the Ossetians and nobody else, not even East Iranic tribes in CentralSouth Asia.

    The first Sumerians lived 8000 years ago, maybe earlier, and pre-date any Indo-European speakers. At the time when the first Sumerians lived there was no such thing as an Indo-European group of languages. The Sumerians came from the MOUNTAINS and not from Africa, Levant or an Arab Desert. Semites are from Levant, Africa and Arab Desert.


    Sumerians (Sumerian farmers) who went to the south were assimilated by African (Semitic, Afro-Asiatic) people. Sumerians who stayed home in Northern Mesopotamia/Kurdistan became (proto-)Iranic people (Mitanni, Kassites etc.).

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Everyone knows what Dinaric is.
    Haplogrup I2a is not native in the Balkan.The nickname "Din" was used for the first time by Ken Nordtvedt for pracical reasons.
    Everyone knows:

    Wikipedia (it is good to remind ourselves)

    Y-DNA Haplogroup I-M170 is predominantly a European haplogroup and it is considered as the only native European Haplogroup.

    I (I1, I2) carriers = Old Europeans

    The TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for the I clade was estimated by Karafet and colleagues in 2008 as 22.2 k.a. (22,200 years ago) with a confidence interval between 15.3-30.0 ka., placing the Haplogroup I-M170 founding event approximately contemporaneous with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) which lasted from 26.5 ka to 19 or 20 ka.

    It would seem to be that different episodes of populace movement had impacted Southeast Europe, as well as the role of the Balkans as a long-standing corridor to Europe from Southwestern Asia is shown by the phylogenetic unification of Hgs I and J by the basal M429 mutation. This proof of common ancestry suggests that ancestral Hgs IJ-M429* probably would have entered Europe through the Balkan track sometime before the LGM.
    ...

    Haplogroup I is native to the Balkans. I carriers moved by the whole Europe.

    Someone can ask what happened to the older clades, maternal to I2a Din, that inhabited the Balkans and the rest of Europe?

    They are gone, no one knows why.

    I2a Din, and I1 of course, and fewer I2 clades, are survivors. It is blessing, fortunate for humanity.

    Once, I1 and I2 carriers inhabited the whole of Europe. Everyone can reads scientific studies and research's data.

    With all due respect for you as an Albanian, we can agree that nobody can deny the contribution of the carriers haplogroups I (I1 and I2) to the development of Europe.

    Maciamo in Eupedia created wonderful pictures. Here is one for Europe 6000-5000 BCE:



    You can see, in every European culture in this time I carriers gave contribution.

  24. #124
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Everyone knows what Dinaric is.
    Haplogrup I2a is not native in the Balkan.The nickname "Din" was used for the first time by Ken Nordtvedt for pracical reasons.
    Give us better explanation how and when appear in the Balkan,i will be glad to hear.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 07-06-15 at 22:54.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    According to the ancient Greeks the Medes were 'Aryan' people. Ancient Greek wrtiers mentioned only the Medes Aryan. Slavic cannibal ancestors (Androphagi) were NEVER called Aryans by anybody. It is written, and it's TRUE history. The Medes were children of Mitanni. Mitanni predate people who wrote Rig Veda. People from West Asia gave birth to BMAC. And from BMAC Aryans invaded India. This is also a historic FACT. It was the first time ever when the Aryans were ever mentioned. Mitanni were descendants of the Sumerians. Sumerians were the very first ancestors of the Aryans who were mentioned by the ancient Greek writers. Sumerian civilization was the FIRST real "Aryan" civilization and it is from the Northern parts of the Mesopotamia.
    Who at the end care who Aryans was,it was name of people like any else,Hitler made big fame only out of it,i preffer the Romans over all,although im not Greco-Roman.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 02-06-15 at 00:37.

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