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Thread: EU Frontex and Illegal immigration,

  1. #301
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    What EU? In the face of this immigrant crisis central and northern Europe have thrown southern Europe under the bus.

    Put a fork in it; it's done.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What EU? In the face of this immigrant crisis central and northern Europe have thrown southern Europe under the bus.

    Put a fork in it; it's done.
    ok for me
    but it would be desastrous for southern Europe

  3. #303
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    ok for me
    but it would be desastrous for southern Europe
    Nonsense. Go back to the lire, making our exports very competitive again. Raise some trade barriers to German goods. See how the German economy and that of its satellite states does without a rigged game. Of course, you're still blessed with natural resources; that goes without saying.

    This is from Forbes business magazine.

    " Italy however is another matter. It’s running a primary surplus, most government debt is owed domestically, yet the low growth and deflation that the euro is causing are leading it to the edges of an irreversible debt spiral. Leaving, bringing back the lira and a reasonable devaluation would be the standard economic answer to this problem. It’s only the politics of Europe and the irreversibility of the euro that stops this happening."

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst.../#5f6a70882018

    It's clear that the Euro has been a disaster for Italy. They've just bought into the propaganda. I find the irony amusing if painful; people who pride themselves on being cynical and savvy have been had.

    "Since 1996, when the lira stopped floating freely against other currencies in preparation for the introduction of the euro, Italy's economic growth has trailed that of the European Union as a whole all but three years (it is expected to trail the EU growth rate again this year, the 15th time in 18 years).

    Adjusted for inflation, Italy's economy is now about 105 percent the size it was on Jan. 1, 1997, while the U.K., which stayed out of the common currency, is nearly 150 percent the size it was at the start of 1997, according to information from British commentator Ambrose Evans-Pritchard.

    With the lira, Italy could allow the currency to weaken to make exports more attractive. The pain of paying wages and debt in the strong euro currency is particularly evident in Italy's less developed southern regions, where industry must compete -- mostly without success -- for price-sensitive manufacturing work against companies in China and other parts of Asia, as well as former Soviet bloc countries still using their own currencies.

    According to Antonio Guglielmi from Mediobanca, Italy was more successful in competing in manufacturing sectors before the lira was pegged to Germany's Deutschemark in 1996. In a research note, Guglielmi noted that the current "negative productivity spiral" started in the late 1990s.

    And Evans-Pritchard said that Italy will only be able to emerge from its decade-and-a-half economic malaise by abandoning the euro and bringing back the lira: "It is an incontrovertible fact that Italy's [economic] disaster coincides with European Monetary Union membership," Evans-Pritchard wrote in August. "


    http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article...aspx?id=245000

    There are numerous economists outside Europe who see the situation clearly, but who's listening? Everybody has been mesmerized by the spin.
    Last edited by Angela; 08-03-16 at 22:14.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What EU? In the face of this immigrant crisis central and northern Europe have thrown southern Europe under the bus.

    Put a fork in it; it's done.
    oups, do I have the right to remain silent?

    you are correct to that.

    the myth of EU created 2-3 decades before almost 'busted' the last decade,
    but isolation of EU is a problem, which according my opignion must be done as happened at USA 1-2 centuries before,
    Anyway in the next decade we will may seen many, from Grexit to Brexit to 2-3 EU to what ever,
    but the idea of EU as it was 2-3 decades before must continue,
    either Europe's fate again is 'divide and conguer' by non EU,

    and believe me, as I see Europe today, it is trebling,
    it seems like it not exist,
    but the idea is idea, you can not kill an idea or a hope,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  5. #305
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    oups, do I have the right to remain silent?

    you are correct to that.
    You guys had your chance. You blinked...proving you weren't serious or you didn't have a plan for proceeding.

    Now everybody can wait for the next crisis.

    It's not personal, Yetos...just business. :)

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You guys had your chance. You blinked...proving you weren't serious or you didn't have a plan for proceeding.

    Now everybody can wait for the next crisis.

    It's not personal, Yetos...just business. :)
    continuing crisis, is not a crisis, it turns to a status or a vendeta

    and for second time I have to agree with you

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nonsense. Go back to the lire, making our exports very competitive again. Raise some trade barriers to German goods. See how the German economy and that of its satellite states does without a rigged game. Of course, you're still blessed with natural resources; that goes without saying.

    This is from Forbes business magazine.

    " Italy however is another matter. It’s running a primary surplus, most government debt is owed domestically, yet the low growth and deflation that the euro is causing are leading it to the edges of an irreversible debt spiral. Leaving, bringing back the lira and a reasonable devaluation would be the standard economic answer to this problem. It’s only the politics of Europe and the irreversibility of the euro that stops this happening."

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst.../#5f6a70882018

    It's clear that the Euro has been a disaster for Italy. They've just bought into the propaganda. I find the irony amusing if painful; people who pride themselves on being cynical and savvy have been had.
    go ahead with te lira then
    what's holding you back?

  8. #308
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
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    Many European politicians blaim Europe for not being unified which make them subject to Erdogan blackmail now.
    And then they blaim other European politicians who don't follow their own ideology as the cause for European disunity.
    So Europe should unite by 'following my ideology'.
    Basically they are blaiming one another for the lack of unity.

    This is hopeless.

  9. #309
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    go ahead with te lira then
    what's holding you back?
    Did you think I was speaking for the Italian body politic? Most Italians have drunk the EU Kool-Aid too, even my own relatives, unaware it's poisoned.

    This is why I figuratively gag myself when I'm home and the conversation turns to politics. I love my family too much to quarrel with them when I'm only there a couple of months a year, and as they have reminded me in the past, I don't pay taxes there yet.

    I'm speaking for myself and a minority of Italians. When the time comes and I feel I have more of a right to express myself, I'll get more involved.

  10. #310
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    @ Angela

    I have to agree to agree with you about 'its business'

    the strong Euro = 1,60 $ was a disaster for south EU for me
    but when Euro was 0.80 was quite interesting,

    the oil currency, as Europe we destroyed Libya Iran and Iraq who sell at E and not $, following NATO
    and then we created immigration problem
    and still only few Eu countries are bombong ISIS. we can not take a common act,

    it needed to change the demographics of Malta, then Italy and now Greece to make acts,
    same with Ukraine,
    the problem of Fiscal union, as also the problem of a central goverment, and nationality determination and acts is still a problem,

    but Hope dies last,

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Did you think I was speaking for the Italian body politic? Most Italians have drunk the EU Kool-Aid too, even my own relatives, unaware it's poisoned.

    This is why I figuratively gag myself when I'm home and the conversation turns to politics. I love my family too much to quarrel with them when I'm only there a couple of months a year, and as they have reminded me in the past, I don't pay taxes there yet.

    I'm speaking for myself and a minority of Italians. When the time comes and I feel I have more of a right to express myself, I'll get more involved.
    I live in Belgium and pay taxes, but I have no say in what Belgian gouvernment decides, less what European bureaucrats decide.

    If Italy can't compete with Germany, it has a structural problem, for which a switch in currency would only give temporary relief.
    In fact, it is such ideas which serve as an alibi not to make necessary structural changes.

    Don't ask me details of what should be changed, I'm not an expert.
    But it is about government efficiency, transparent and apt legislation, powerfull lobby groups and in some cases I guess even corruption.

    One of the main problems in Europe is that there are to many government levels and far to many politicians. Every poltician speaks for his own level and public and sometimes policies on different levels are conflicting with each other.
    Of course polticians try to create more and more decision levels. It is their bread and butter.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Angela

    I have to agree to agree with you about 'its business'

    the strong Euro = 1,60 $ was a disaster for south EU for me
    but when Euro was 0.80 was quite interesting,

    the oil currency, as Europe we destroyed Libya Iran and Iraq who sell at E and not $, following NATO
    and then we created immigration problem
    and still only few Eu countries are bombong ISIS. we can not take a common act,

    it needed to change the demographics of Malta, then Italy and now Greece to make acts,
    same with Ukraine,
    the problem of Fiscal union, as also the problem of a central goverment, and nationality determination and acts is still a problem,

    but Hope dies last,
    I don't know who's idea it was to support the 'Arabian spring' which is now backfiring.
    I think it was as much an European as an American idea.
    It certainly was an idea of stupid and naive people. It was not a complot of shrude people. That is the excuse of these stupid people for the resulting failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know who's idea it was to support the 'Arabian spring' which is now backfiring.
    Local people who don't like dictators? Local people who want to be free and chose their own destiny?


    I think it was as much an European as an American idea.
    As well blame Greeks fro introducing democracy to the world, and other destructive ideas of freedom.


    It certainly was an idea of stupid and naive people.
    As long as only stupid people want to be free, and they are smart enough to know what it is.


    It was not a complot of shrude people
    . I'm sure the "shrude" people like yourself would be happy to live under dictatorship forever.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Local people who don't like dictators? Local people who want to be free and chose their own destiny?


    As well blame Greeks fro introducing democracy to the world, and other destructive ideas of freedom.


    As long as only stupid people want to be free, and they are smart enough to know what it is.


    . I'm sure the "shrude" people like yourself would be happy to live under dictatorship forever.
    you should learn to make the difference between principals and dreams made in ivory towers and reality about life on earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Local people who don't like dictators? Local people who want to be free and chose their own destiny?


    As well blame Greeks fro introducing democracy to the world, and other destructive ideas of freedom.


    As long as only stupid people want to be free, and they are smart enough to know what it is.


    . I'm sure the "shrude" people like yourself would be happy to live under dictatorship forever.

    Arab spring :
    local people who wanted democracy, well yes
    certain tribes that were against or suffer, YES
    Radical IMAMS AND ISLAM FOUNDAMENTALS, CERTAINLY YES

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    you should learn to make the difference between principals and dreams made in ivory towers and reality about life on earth
    And what are the principles you are talking about? Don't do anything, don't try anything, don't change anything, because it will be a mess? Or is it, to keep all the people of the in Near East in dictatorship, controlled and oppressed, otherwise they will bother you in Belgium? Well, on such principle I wish Belgium was still a feudal country, so you would be busy plowing fields for your master and wouldn't bother people on the internet.
    Reality is that no dictatorship lasts forever, no country, no government last forever. Do you know that? It is reality. The reality is that people like freedom. The reality is that unhappy people revolt. Put these facts of reality together and you will understand that there don't need to be a foreign intervention for people to revolt against dictators. That's the reality. No conspiracy theory is needed to explain this phenomenon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Arab spring :
    local people who wanted democracy, well yes
    certain tribes that were against or suffer, YES
    Radical IMAMS AND ISLAM FOUNDAMENTALS, CERTAINLY YES
    All is true. They need freedom and be free to try and test what works for them.

    It looks now that Western Boots on the ground was a better solution. IS would be defeated by now together with Assad. Syrians would be busy rebuilding Syria, and maybe fighting a little bit like in Libya, or living peacefully in 4 separate new states. Most important thing is that there would be no refugee crises in Europe.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    All is true. They need freedom and be free to try and test what works for them.

    It looks now that Western Boots on the ground was a better solution. IS would be defeated by now together with Assad. Syrians would be busy rebuilding Syria, and maybe fighting a little bit like in Libya, or living peacefully in 4 separate new states. Most important thing is that there would be no refugee crises in Europe.
    lets see
    except the many types of 'democracy' or the total απολυταρχικο absolut one system, there are many others, one of them is theocracy,
    Arab sping is a failure for 3 reasons

    1) instead of bring peace and democracy and restore rights, brought higly theocratic system and anarchy, back to middle ages and religious wars,
    how many centuries we had been stucked?

    2) if West step a foot, as we say in my language, 'the boot steps the land and leave trace behind', it will be accused as new crusaders,
    if the boot do not step the land, then the land belongs to the one who marks the ground, meaning the 'back to dark age'
    so West has lost either steps, either not,
    the only who had defeat that situation was Bush the elder, we need new diplomacy, and new dogmas, than the old from 1990's

    3) Islam needs leaders, by killing all Arab leaders who declared them shelves as defenders of Islam,
    we created new ones, who are unpredicted, like the ones of Daesh, or just lost in History space like Erdogan of Turkey
    and although Turkey had Kemal and Egypt had Nasser, today Islamic world lost the 'peace voices', has lost the reformers, in so much degree, that radicals dare to threat peacefull imams at Bosnia, an islamic state that has less than 20 years history.
    it needed less than 20 years to create theocraric hives.

    except India, today powers seems like they are taking revenge from the ex-3rd world society, for not joining the cold war game
    Last edited by Yetos; 10-03-16 at 00:34.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    And what are the principles you are talking about? Don't do anything, don't try anything, don't change anything, because it will be a mess? Or is it, to keep all the people of the in Near East in dictatorship, controlled and oppressed, otherwise they will bother you in Belgium? Well, on such principle I wish Belgium was still a feudal country, so you would be busy plowing fields for your master and wouldn't bother people on the internet.
    Reality is that no dictatorship lasts forever, no country, no government last forever. Do you know that? It is reality. The reality is that people like freedom. The reality is that unhappy people revolt. Put these facts of reality together and you will understand that there don't need to be a foreign intervention for people to revolt against dictators. That's the reality. No conspiracy theory is needed to explain this phenomenon.
    I was not talking about principles, I was talking about reality

    this is reality

    Arab spring :
    local people who wanted democracy, well yes
    certain tribes that were against or suffer, YES
    Radical IMAMS AND ISLAM FOUNDAMENTALS, CERTAINLY YES

    most people were better of before Arab spring

    but your principles prevent you from admitting that

    and thank you for your wishes, you mean very well

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    well after the last attack agaist Greece and EU by we all know who,
    a new attack is taking place this time at Poland and EU and again we know by who.

    some 'strange news' about a free touristic visa from a country.
    suddenly 2 airports raise by 40 flights extra per week to the spot
    and then you have same discussion about human rights, humanity, etc etc.

    Nobody seeks who are behind, nobody search who get benefit from that,
    and if people die, it is EU countries to blame, and not the modern 'slave merchants, or fake hope seller'
    After the mediterrenean sea, who took so many lifes, due to promise of 'hope sellers'
    Now the NE swamps of Europe may be next graveyard of frozen bodies who believe the traffickers,
    Souls lost, to a political game of countries.

    MY TRUE WONDER
    if these people did not manage to Germany and their free tourist visa ends,
    How the get back to their homes? Do traffickers promise a safe return if no manage to pass?

    for another time we see organised massive attempt to pass.
    again we know the new identity of organiser.
    BUT ......


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    Many timew I did wonder

    1. human rights?
    2. global arrogance,
    3. Fortune hunting



    After the above I wonder.

    1. Illegal immigrants
    2. Invasion army,
    3. Is there any organisation behind?
    4. Europe does not have unemployment? and economical crisis?
    5, why to Europe the old fart lady? and not revolt their own countries for human rights and protection?
    6. why they ask freedom from colonies, and now they go back to serve their colonial masters?
    7. Do they believe that Living in Europe is like in a cinema movie?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Many timew I did wonder

    1. human rights?
    2. global arrogance,
    3. Fortune hunting



    After the above I wonder.

    1. Illegal immigrants
    2. Invasion army,
    3. Is there any organisation behind?
    4. Europe does not have unemployment? and economical crisis?
    5, why to Europe the old fart lady? and not revolt their own countries for human rights and protection?
    6. why they ask freedom from colonies, and now they go back to serve their colonial masters?
    7. Do they believe that Living in Europe is like in a cinema movie?
    Europe is not one thing. Some countries in europe do have unemployment, but those are not the countries where most migrants actually want to go. even the natives in those countries often times move elsewhere and become migrants themselves.

    why do you not ask those same question to any kind of migrants including those from european countries, poor and rich? there is no difference. you could ask the same questions, why move to another country instead of fighting fro better living conditions or perhaps also for human rights and protection? if you can't get a fitting job why move to another country to get one instead of searching harder in your own country or just take what you can get?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    Europe is not one thing. Some countries in europe do have unemployment, but those are not the countries where most migrants actually want to go. even the natives in those countries often times move elsewhere and become migrants themselves.

    why do you not ask those same question to any kind of migrants including those from european countries, poor and rich? there is no difference. you could ask the same questions, why move to another country instead of fighting fro better living conditions or perhaps also for human rights and protection? if you can't get a fitting job why move to another country to get one instead of searching harder in your own country or just take what you can get?

    Just after discuss this with a friend, and this was his opinion,

    At Madrid there is the NATO gathering today,
    maybe they did so as a message.

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