Is there any consensus on how Celtic DNA made its way to Western Norway yet?

Well as absurd as it will sound,new studies shows Norwegian viking women traveled too.
So is possible that also some from that R1B-L21 was brought by Viking women who raided in British Isles and got pregnant with local Celtic males,from British Isles.
 
Here a very interesting article taken from Wikipedia written in French,about R1B-L21:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1b-L21
As is written there,some of the R1B-L21 from Norway is same as some R1B-L21 clade from Ireland.
So,that clade of R1B-L21 was not brought by Celtic Slaves,but it was brought by Irish people who were allied to Norwegian Vikins from SW Norway.
Check again the battle of Brian Boru against Norwegian Vikings allied to other Irish tribes.
A very plausible hypothesis is that a part of these Irish returned with Norwegian to SW Norway,after loosing the battle there.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Here a very interesting article taken from Wikipedia written in French,about R1B-L21:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1b-L21
As is written there,some of the R1B-L21 from Norway is same as some R1B-L21 clade from Ireland.
So,that clade of R1B-L21 was not brought by Celtic Slaves,but it was brought by Irish people who were allied to Norwegian Vikins from SW Norway.
Check again the battle of Brian Boru against Norwegian Vikings allied to other Irish tribes.
A very plausible hypothesis is that a part of these Irish returned with Norwegian to SW Norway,after loosing the battle there.
Click to expand...

You also get R1b-L21 in the copper region of the Pyrenees so I still think it went from Iberia to Ireland to Norway following the copper.
 
Greying Wanderer said:
You also get R1b-L21 in the copper region of the Pyrenees so I still think it went from Iberia to Ireland to Norway following the copper.
Click to expand...
That is a very interesting supposition.
It should be interested to see if there is any correlation between copper deposits in Norway,Great Britain and France and the presence of R1B-L21 in these countries.
I understand that in Bretagne in France R1b-L21 makes about 40-60% of the paternal lines there.
 
mihaitzateo said:
That is a very interesting supposition.
It should be interested to see if there is any correlation between copper deposits in Norway,Great Britain and France and the presence of R1B-L21 in these countries.
I understand that in Bretagne in France R1b-L21 makes about 40-60% of the paternal lines there.
Click to expand...

Yes I should have mentioned Bretagne/Brittany as they also had very early mining.
 
it's not stupid trying to link some Y-DNA dominant in a population to metals ores or other economic-power stuff but Y-L21 had cousins settled not too far and challengers also interested in metals ores - it is always difficult to link too tightly economy and population genetics - by the way we have here to prove the chronology you propose based upon copper prospection
 
There was a better source with an ancient cattle DNA sample from Iberia but I can't find it right now. The sample was dated at 1700 BC.
 
That is a very interesting supposition.
It should be interested to see if there is any correlation between copper deposits in Norway,Great Britain and France and the presence of R1B-L21 in these countries.
I understand that in Bretagne in France R1b-L21 makes about 40-60% of the paternal lines there.​





​
 
that clade of R1B-L21 was not brought by Celtic Slaves,but it was brought by Irish people who were allied to Norwegian Vikins from SW Norway.
 
If the BB's could get from Gaul or Iberia to Britain, they could have got from Britain to southwest Norway. Not that big of a leap. Were the BB's fishermen? Did they like herring, cod?
 
I think by far the most likely explanation is an expansion during the Beaker-period, further strengthened by prehistoric trade and migrations between Norway and the British isles. There was a paper coming out a few years ago about Viking age population genomics which made it clear that Norway already had Celtic DNA before the Viking age-period. This is not to say the slave trade didn't happen, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that the amount of L21 in western Norway is purely Viking-related. There was certainly gene flow going on during the Viking age from and to the British isles, but I can't imagine that slave-lineages would be successful enough over just a few hundred years to imprint itself so dominantly over an entire region. You can see the same pattern in Jutland in Denmark, with the distribution of L21 across the western coast.

Also, bump :)
 
Icelanders don't really have as much Celtic DNA as is widely believed. It is higher than in Scandinavia overall, but you are making the rookie-mistake of mistaking Y-DNA for aDNA. A great amount of the maternal lineages are Celtic-derived. But going from autosomal DNA alone, Icelanders are about 80% Scandinavian (mostly western/northern Norwegian) and often more. The rest is Celtic. Originally the distribution was more equally aligned between Celtic and Norse, but for whatever reason the Norse peoples on the island had a greater reproductive success. Also, see my other post on L21.
 
Bygdedweller said:
I think by far the most likely explanation is an expansion during the Beaker-period, further strengthened by prehistoric trade and migrations between Norway and the British isles. There was a paper coming out a few years ago about Viking age population genomics which made it clear that Norway already had Celtic DNA before the Viking age-period. This is not to say the slave trade didn't happen, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that the amount of L21 in western Norway is purely Viking-related. There was certainly gene flow going on during the Viking age from and to the British isles, but I can't imagine that slave-lineages would be successful enough over just a few hundred years to imprint itself so dominantly over an entire region. You can see the same pattern in Jutland in Denmark, with the distribution of L21 across the western coast.

Also, bump :)
Click to expand...

Short time ago, I was thinking in this: BB's reached Scandinavia too, even if not in a huge colonization, and only in some places, rather West. I think Y-R1b L21 could have had foot in the Netherlands and/or came from Britain, and passed into Northern countries. Before I was thinking in Gael-Gal Vikings rather than in slaves (logical enough) but know I think in BB's too.
 
MOESAN said:
Short time ago, I was thinking in this: BB's reached Scandinavia too, even if not in a huge colonization, and only in some places, rather West. I think Y-R1b L21 could have had foot in the Netherlands and/or came from Britain, and passed into Northern countries. Before I was thinking in Gael-Gal Vikings rather than in slaves (logical enough) but know I think in BB's too.
Click to expand...
I believe so too. The modern populations of Norway resemble BB's more than Corded Ware after all, and while that could be partially explained by the later resurgence of farmer ancestry, the case for a Beaker-influence is very strong. I'm more in line with a British BB-origin (maybe even Scottish) for L21 in Western Norway, but its presence in Southern and Southeast Norway is not unlikely to be from more continental areas like Netherlands and North Germany. At least we can say - without a doubt there was migration and trade linking the "nations" of the North Sea-region well before the Viking age and the Hanseatic trade.
 
Well, who knows! There're some interesting TMRCAs involving UK and Scandinavia. Probably not all R-L21 men arrived there as slaves, but it's possible some of them did.

"During the Viking age (793 – approximately 1100), the Norse raiders often captured and enslaved militarily weaker peoples they encountered. The Nordic countries called their slaves thralls (Old Norse: Þræll).[43] The thralls were mostly from Western Europe, among them many Franks, Anglo-Saxons, and Celts. Many Irish slaves travelled in expeditions for the colonization of Iceland.[44]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe#Vikings

Almost all TMRCAs involving Norway and UK post-date Bell Beakers, and are not that far from Viking age:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y30336/ (1900 ybp -> 2600-1250)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9089/ (2300 ybp -> 3100-1500)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC19633/ (1100 ybp -> 1550-700)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC3222/ (1850 ybp -> 2300-1350)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S953/ (1300 ybp -> 1700-950)

Some involving Sweden and UK:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY9000/ (1150 -> 1550-800)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY582/ (1200 -> 1800-700)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A17482/ (1100 -> 1750-600)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z16407/ (1050 -> 1450-700)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23191/ (1300 -> 1650-950)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y13125/ (850 -> 1850-350)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT32658/ (1300 -> 2000-800)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY11687/ (750 -> 1150-400)

I can find even examples below my own clade G-L497 (one step above, and we end up in Central Europe or close to):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y28133/ (1650 -> 2300-1050)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Z39670/ (1400 -> 2000-900)
 
mihaitzateo said:
Well PaleBlueDot I do not have that reference.
A thing,why Strongest Viking contest was being held in Iceland,but not in Norway?
Besides,Iceland got only 300.000 inhabitants ,but lots of strongman and had 2 champions at Strongest man.
They also have championship of throwing stones,as seen in Scots. So I think this is the source of their ancestry (Scotland) ,main source.
Please look a little at this movie,those Icelandic strong man are not Nordid people,their back head is very flat,as seen at Scots highlanders if I am remembering right:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A7woRoVwyM
Click to expand...

There is no debate concerning a Scottish and Irish input in Icelanders genetics.
Concerning types, NO these men as a whole are not brachycephalic nor planoccipital. Don't take the result of a muscled neck for planoccipital brachecephally! In Scotland, there is a small but yet recognisable input of 'dinaric' types, not everywhere in Highlands but rather on the South-Eastern Grampians (Fifeshire and around), facing a similar small input in Western Norwegians (so I thought without any certainty in a possible input of BB's, sure in Scotland, hypothetic in Norway (and Maybe Western Jutland, no precise survey here, only states about sub-brachycephaly of unkown origin, but possible slight trail of 'dinaroids' through Frisia, visible only on individuals among a seaful of dolichos-mesos).
concerning strength sports, it's also a question of traditions: why Scandinavians or Germans have not a high level rugby? Why Georgians, Armenians and generally Caucasus people are found and good at wrestling, judo, and weights-lifting?
THis kind of sport based on absolute strength (contrary to decathlon, a more equilibrated discipline) requires a specific training with weight increase (along with muscles, evidently!!! not only fet): BTW this is not very good for health, because people are tempted to overpass their real potentiel); if you look at these over specialised sportmen, they were all of them strong men already, but far to be as musculated and as heavy, before they choose this discipline. It's matter of choice, heavy musculation training and generally anabolisants/steroids with later harmful consequences.
 
Sorry, I re-read old posts of this thread and repeated myself more or less. Sorry.
Concerning the very matter of the topic, Regio X 's post gives an interesting clue, I think, favouring a late input of L21 into Norway (Western), around Vikings times.
The real question is: slaves or allies? I would rather choose the last answer, because of a so heavy MALES input.
 
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