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Thread: Sumerian and Indo-European

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    Sumerian and Indo-European

    Some important words connecting PIE with Sumerian perhaps somewhere in West Asia.

    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...urprising.html

    I will post here the two most important words related to farming.


    • Sum. agar ‘meadow, field’, PIE *ag’ra- ‘field’ (Skt. ajra-, Greek agros, Lat. ager 'field'), maybe from the root ag'- 'to lead (animals to the pasture, or to till the soil)' and the common IE suffix -ra/ro-, but according to Gamkrelidze and Ivanov the Sumerian term a.gar means 'irrigated territory', and "this pair of words may be evidence for a connection of Indo-European agriculture with methods of working the land in Sumer." We have also the Akkadian ugāru "(communally controlled) meadow". p.s. I will add agarak in Armenian also
    • Sum. gud/gu ‘bull, ox, cattle’ PIE *gu/gwau- ‘cow, ox’.


    This word is not very similar. But it's implications if demonstrated are dramatic.

    Sum. gigir'chariot', PIE *kukwla/kwakwla- 'wheel', Skt. cakra-, Greek kyklos, Old English hweogol'wheel', Toch. A kukäl 'cart, chariot'. The similarity is not very strong, but the analogous reduplication is remarkable.

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    Thanks, I quickly read it through. Apparently there were IE - Sumerian contacts. On quick look it seems most IE words in Shumeran went through some Greek-ish filter?

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    There was the proposal by Gordon Whittaker, I think, who suggested an Indo-European substrate for Sumerian. I personally found that quite hair-raising, on the level of Tartessian-as-Celtic proposal (with a similar, if worse, level of methodological flaw). The problem that I see with trying to link Sumerian to anything - either through loanwords as being genetically related - stems from several sources: first, Sumerian is the world's oldest attested language, we don't have any attested language from the same time slice. For any other language family, we only have reconstructed proto-languages. Second, anything we know, or think to know, about Sumerian goes through the filter of Akkadian, a Semitic language, which was not particularly closely related to the modern Semitic languages. To give you an idea, Akkadian relates to Hebrew or Arabic a bit like Hittite relates to English or Spanish. There's a lot of ambiguity by itself about Akkadian as a result. In summary, we have uncertainty upon uncertainty... and from that we're supposed to identify loanwords (or true cognates?) that Sumerian supposedly shares with other languages?

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    http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/Sumerian-Parpola.htm

    To this end, I started in November 2004 a project called "The Linguistic Relationship between Sumerian and Ural-Altaic," on which I have been working full time since May 2006, with funding from the Academy of Finland. The aim of the project is to systematically scrutinize the entire vocabulary of Sumerian with the help of modern etymological dictionaries and studies, identify all the words and morphemes that can be reasonably associated with Uralic or Altaic etyma, ascertain the validity of the comparisons, convert the material into a database, and make it generally available on the Internet.

    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala...an_and_pie.pdf

    ABSTRACT: Albeit the genetic affinity of the Sumerian language is still
    lacking consensus, some vocabulary related to Sumerian may be found
    from various language families including Indo-European, Kartvelian,
    Semitic, Dravidian and Uralic. Where the Semitic contacts are well
    attested, contacts to other families have often regarded controversial.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...Language/page2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Some important words connecting PIE with Sumerian perhaps somewhere in West Asia.

    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...urprising.html

    I will post here the two most important words related to farming.


    • Sum. agar ‘meadow, field’, PIE *ag’ra- ‘field’ (Skt. ajra-, Greek agros, Lat. ager 'field'), maybe from the root ag'- 'to lead (animals to the pasture, or to till the soil)' and the common IE suffix -ra/ro-, but according to Gamkrelidze and Ivanov the Sumerian term a.gar means 'irrigated territory', and "this pair of words may be evidence for a connection of Indo-European agriculture with methods of working the land in Sumer." We have also the Akkadian ugāru "(communally controlled) meadow". p.s. I will add agarak in Armenian also
    • Sum. gud/gu ‘bull, ox, cattle’ PIE *gu/gwau- ‘cow, ox’.


    This word is not very similar. But it's implications if demonstrated are dramatic.

    Sum. gigir'chariot', PIE *kukwla/kwakwla- 'wheel', Skt. cakra-, Greek kyklos, Old English hweogol'wheel', Toch. A kukäl 'cart, chariot'. The similarity is not very strong, but the analogous reduplication is remarkable.
    the first 2 words may come from a common source, long before Sumerian and PIE existed

    the source of the 3rd word may be the people that actually invented the wheel

    I don't think you can prove direct connection between Sumerians and Indo-Europeans by this way

    the word 'computer' is used all over the world, even by people that don't speak English (except the French of course, because of the purist académie française)

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    Taranis
    I will admit that the theory of proto-Euphratic could be problematic from the point of time overlapping.
    But his main point is about PIE homeland not the substratum. I think such a word like "cow" that is present in almost every IE language could not be the result of coincidence. I can imagine a word "Wine" borrowing from Kartvelians because of proximity but borrowing the word Cow needs more Southern contacts for PIE.


    I don't think you can prove direct connection between Sumerians and Indo-Europeans by this way
    bicicleur
    The question is not linking Sumerians and PIE but where they meet each other ? In steppes or another place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Some important words connecting PIE with Sumerian perhaps somewhere in West Asia.

    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...urprising.html

    I will post here the two most important words related to farming.


    • Sum. agar ‘meadow, field’, PIE *ag’ra- ‘field’ (Skt. ajra-, Greek agros, Lat. ager 'field'), maybe from the root ag'- 'to lead (animals to the pasture, or to till the soil)' and the common IE suffix -ra/ro-, but according to Gamkrelidze and Ivanov the Sumerian term a.gar means 'irrigated territory', and "this pair of words may be evidence for a connection of Indo-European agriculture with methods of working the land in Sumer." We have also the Akkadian ugāru "(communally controlled) meadow". p.s. I will add agarak in Armenian also
    • Sum. gud/gu ‘bull, ox, cattle’ PIE *gu/gwau- ‘cow, ox’.


    This word is not very similar. But it's implications if demonstrated are dramatic.

    Sum. gigir'chariot', PIE *kukwla/kwakwla- 'wheel', Skt. cakra-, Greek kyklos, Old English hweogol'wheel', Toch. A kukäl 'cart, chariot'. The similarity is not very strong, but the analogous reduplication is remarkable.
    Is this part of the article recently about the DNA testing being done/commenced on a sumerian skeleton from the city of UR. A skeleton that this USA university has kept for 10 years?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    @ Arame,

    believe me they are much more, like the liligi (flower)
    there are words I know that are not in the link

    I have started a thread before few years about that,
    but everybody was against me,
    today many realize it, since Summerian conectivity is found in North IE languages, something unexpected to many Kurgan Hypothesis supporters which wanted to link IE with Uralian or Altaic

    but there is more,
    Today I am more certain not in Zagros, neither in Taurus but in Erciye mountains a language was developed
    what we call Kappadokia had a culture that played big roll in what we call IE
    until yesterday I believed Laz area, but some recent i have discuss with friends change my mind,
    but that is to certify,

    I THINK THAT SYRRIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC, BUT BECOME, (Leucosyrroi)

    anyway I know that connection of Summerian with IE is a good mark to discuss,
    but until now it works vise-verca,
    but vice-versa can not work in two terms
    1) Messech or Mac or Muca
    2) tar tartaros

    Anyway to avoid troubles,
    I declare my personal opignions,
    and I admit that there is a connectivity among Summerian and IE
    which means either
    1) IE was developed in nearby Summerian areas (Leyla Teppe, south Caucas, Laz, Zagros etc)
    either
    2)Summerians had an steppe IE influence and these are a kind of import words to them
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Taranis

    Here are some tables comparing Akkadian and Arabic. The first and the last attested Semitic languages.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages
    Sincerely I don't see any dramatic change in the words like those in IE family.
    Sure Akkadian grammar is very different from other Semitic languages but it is the influence of Sumerian. The words themselves didn't change much. So I think our knowledge about Akkadian words is more or less certain.

    There is much uncertainty for Sumerian and PIE. But then what is the purpose to reconstruct the PIE if we cannot use it for comparison or check it with other attested languages?
    BTW for the word cow in Sumerian there is a unanimity among Sumerologues.


    Sile

    This is not related to any DNA testing. This man is an Italian Indologue who is citing Gordon Whittaker's book. And adding some his words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    The question is not linking Sumerians and PIE but where they meet each other ? In steppes or another place.
    the link may be through a 3rd party
    maybe in Anatolia, maybe in Transcaucasia ?

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    Judging by words presented in the link of opening post, it rather looks like some (para? proto?) Greko-ish branch on their way to Greece visited Sumerians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the link may be through a 3rd party
    maybe in Anatolia, maybe in Transcaucasia ?
    I am open to every option. I just want to point that the Southern links of PIE are much heavy than northern Uralic ones.
    Also this information is not contradicting Haak et al. and Maciamo's theory presented here.
    West Asian origin and Steppe are not fully incompatible to each other as one can think. They can rather been complementary.
    Steppe is a ideal place for a massive spread. There are other such examples in new times. The spread of Iranian Scythians, the spread of Turkic languages and the spread of Slavic Russian. All used Steppes.
    But in all cases the Steppe himself is not the origin but a transporter, a tube. There is no reason to think that the case of PIE was different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Taranis

    Here are some tables comparing Akkadian and Arabic. The first and the last attested Semitic languages.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages
    Sincerely I don't see any dramatic change in the words like those in IE family.
    Sure Akkadian grammar is very different from other Semitic languages but it is the influence of Sumerian. The words themselves didn't change much. So I think our knowledge about Akkadian words is more or less certain.
    Arame, absolutely you're correct that the Semitic languages as a whole are very conservative (compared to other language families, definitely compared to Indo-European ). However, first, Akkadian (or Akkadian and Eblaite, which together form the East Semitic languages) is still an outlier. Also, what do you mean by "certain"? Just because we know what sounds in other Semitic languages correspond regularly with the sounds in Akkadian doesn't automatically mean we know their exact value. You have to apply the same level of uncertainty to Sumerian, and then it becomes not the slightest surprise that linguists have such a hard time linking Sumerian to any other language...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/Sumerian-Parpola.htm

    To this end, I started in November 2004 a project called "The Linguistic Relationship between Sumerian and Ural-Altaic,"...
    ABSTRACT: Albeit the genetic affinity of the Sumerian language is still
    lacking consensus, some vocabulary related to Sumerian may be found
    from various language families including Indo-European, Kartvelian,
    Semitic, Dravidian and Uralic. Where the Semitic contacts are well
    attested, contacts to other families have often regarded controversial.
    ...

    That will be interesting to see.

    Remember that it's also possible that apparent vocabulary similarities could be due to loanwords, not a genetic relationship between languages per se. Considering the early predominance of Sumerian civilization, it would seem to be likely that some loanwords would find their way into the languages of neighbors or even beyond.

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    I believe I read somewhere that Mesopotamia used to trade with people of the North for obsidian a couple of months ago. Here let me find the link, I'm not surprised one bit that PIE and Sumerian languages influenced each other.
    http://www.arroyorain.com/2012/09/11...an-tell-mozan/

    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Judging by words presented in the link of opening post, it rather looks like some (para? proto?) Greko-ish branch on their way to Greece visited Sumerians.
    And as a side note, if you look at maciamo's genetic map, you'll notice that Mesopotamia had territory in southern turkey evolving to the Hattians/Hittites, Greece had close contacts with the Hittites; especially with the Carians and Trojans. Herodotus' father was Carian even born in Halicarnassus, Modern Day Turkey according to legend.
    Last edited by Twilight; 23-09-15 at 05:26.

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    " Indo-European before the Indo-Europeans? - new evidence from Mesopotamia

    Fresh evidence from the Land of the Two Rivers suggests otherwise. For many decades now, leading Assyriologists have speculated on the existence of an early population in the 4th millennium B.C. that preceded the Sumerians, hitherto generally regarded as the first settlers of the region. Evidence for such a population comes from place names, the names of deities, technical vocabulary and even from environmental terms

    ... in a number of recent publications data have been presented that suggest that one such linguistic group is indeed comparable -- the Indo-European family of languages. Polysyllabic terms lacking a Sumerian etymology can be demonstrated to resemble segmentable Indo-European words with comparable meanings. Furthermore, the cuneiform writing system can be shown to preserve traces of Indo-European influence in its sign values and in its sign composition. "

    http://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/english/calendar/archive_2009/euphratic/



    SUMERO-INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE CONTACTS

    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala/asahala_sumerian_and_pie.pdf


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    " Indo-European before the Indo-Europeans? - new evidence from Mesopotamia

    Fresh evidence from the Land of the Two Rivers suggests otherwise. For many decades now, leading Assyriologists have speculated on the existence of an early population in the 4th millennium B.C. that preceded the Sumerians, hitherto generally regarded as the first settlers of the region. Evidence for such a population comes from place names, the names of deities, technical vocabulary and even from environmental terms

    ... in a number of recent publications data have been presented that suggest that one such linguistic group is indeed comparable -- the Indo-European family of languages. Polysyllabic terms lacking a Sumerian etymology can be demonstrated to resemble segmentable Indo-European words with comparable meanings. Furthermore, the cuneiform writing system can be shown to preserve traces of Indo-European influence in its sign values and in its sign composition. "

    http://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/english/calendar/archive_2009/euphratic/



    SUMERO-INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE CONTACTS

    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala/asahala_sumerian_and_pie.pdf

    Well, they say that there might be traces of IE influence over Sumerian. This is not much to build any case of even a close contact. Sumerian and IE could have been related, by way of similar Hunter Gatherer origin 10 k or 15 k years ago. It can explain traces of similarity in language, but not the close contact with IEs.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Well, they say that there might be traces of IE influence over Sumerian. This is not much to build any case of even a close contact. Sumerian and IE could have been related, by way of similar Hunter Gatherer origin 10 k or 15 k years ago. It can explain traces of similarity in language, but not the close contact with IEs.
    That may be so, but I would like to see how Semitic languages compare against PIE. After all, the Semitic Tribes are of mostly "Early Farmer ancestry" as well as the Sumerians and Arabic.
    It's coincidence enough that PIE has Sumerian loan words but if that was solely due to "Middle Eastern Farmers" in Prehistoric Europe PIE should have Proto-Semetic loan words as well.

    Or even better, hypothetical Proto-Sumero-Semetic and/or Proto-Afro-Asiatic loan words in PIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    That may be so, but I would like to see how Semitic languages compare against PIE. After all, the Semitic Tribes are of mostly "Early Farmer ancestry" as well as the Sumerians and Arabic.
    It's coincidence enough that PIE has Sumerian loan words but if that was solely due to "Middle Eastern Farmers" in Prehistoric Europe PIE should have Proto-Semetic loan words as well.

    Or even better, hypothetical Proto-Sumero-Semetic and/or Proto-Afro-Asiatic loan words in PIE
    Theoretical they all, farmers, should have spoken First Farmer language, or at least belong to it's family, because by far they were the dominant force and population of known ancient world. However there were few dominant languages among ancient farming societies, Sumerian, Semitic and IE as the main ones. In this case some of them had to be picked up by farmers from blending with hunter gatherers and herders, I'm assuming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Theoretical they all, farmers, should have spoken First Farmer language, or at least belong to it's family, because by far they were the dominant force and population of known ancient world. However there were few dominant languages among ancient farming societies, Sumerian, Semitic and IE as the main ones. In this case some of them had to be picked up by farmers from blending with hunter gatherers and herders, I'm assuming.
    Probably, the Early Farmers would have to find a way to communicate with European Cro-Magnons sooner or later. So far PIE does sound like both Sumarian and Proto Native American languages together and had a baby on a speculative note (Im speculating from the youtube link mostly)(Both Proto-Native American and Sumerian;or Proto-Afro-Asiatic language as an ancestrial language of PIE for example.). Perhaps linguists will come through some day but good find Arame :).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU5qI1MCzss

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    IE signs is specific topic. Tbh I dont know if there is a Baltic sign not present in earlier Vinča simbols.
    Are there authentic IE signs at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    " Indo-European before the Indo-Europeans? - new evidence from Mesopotamia

    Fresh evidence from the Land of the Two Rivers suggests otherwise. For many decades now, leading Assyriologists have speculated on the existence of an early population in the 4th millennium B.C. that preceded the Sumerians, hitherto generally regarded as the first settlers of the region. Evidence for such a population comes from place names, the names of deities, technical vocabulary and even from environmental terms

    ... in a number of recent publications data have been presented that suggest that one such linguistic group is indeed comparable -- the Indo-European family of languages. Polysyllabic terms lacking a Sumerian etymology can be demonstrated to resemble segmentable Indo-European words with comparable meanings. Furthermore, the cuneiform writing system can be shown to preserve traces of Indo-European influence in its sign values and in its sign composition. "

    http://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/english/calendar/archive_2009/euphratic/



    SUMERO-INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE CONTACTS

    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala/asahala_sumerian_and_pie.pdf

    I'm not convinced. For starters, Aleksi Sahala also brings up what I did mention earlier in this thread, namely the ambiguity of Sumerian. Even if you completely disregard that (which I find to be a huge assumption), some examples he mentions I feel are outright retarted:

    (1) Sum. anše 'equid; donkey; ass' ~ Hitt. (ANŠE) /?/; HLuw. (ASINUS)-na 'donkey; mule'; Arm. ēs11 'donkey'; Lat. asinus; PCelt. *assin 'ass'; Lith. asilas; OCS osl; OE. assa; → Finn. aasi 'donkey'
    Donkeys were unknown in northern Europe until the Roman period, and all language families of northern Europe (Insular Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Baltic and Uralic) have the word originally borrowed from Latin, which as the article actually suggests, in turn borrowed the word probably from ancient Egyptian. This is not the evidence for an ancient Indo-European/Sumerian contact (or Uralic/Sumerian), its a word that was borrowed by Indo-Europeans and by Sumerians independently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Theoretical they all, farmers, should have spoken First Farmer language, or at least belong to it's family, because by far they were the dominant force and population of known ancient world. However there were few dominant languages among ancient farming societies, Sumerian, Semitic and IE as the main ones. In this case some of them had to be picked up by farmers from blending with hunter gatherers and herders, I'm assuming.
    Sumerians were not really native to the Mesopotamia and in their time they were immigrants from the mountains. First Sumerians were also not the only people in the region. At the time when Sumerians already settled down in Mesopotamia, they mentioned Gutians as their neighbors. It's possible that those Gutians were in Mesopotamia before the Sumerians and the Sumerians (or Sumerian language) replaced those so called Gutians.

    I'm sure that Proto-Indo-Europeans speakers were from the south of the Caspian Sea. Around the Leyla-Tepe, areas between Gilan, Talysh, Mazandaran -and - Kurdistan. On the Iranian Plateau. I think that Sumerians were neighbours of those PIE folks who livedon the Southern shore of the Caspian Sea. It's possible that those PIE folks (known as Gutians in Mesopotamia) from Leyla-Tepe were in the Mesopotamia first even before the Sumerians.

  24. #24
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    The Gutians practiced hit-and-run tactics, and would belong gone by the time regular troops could arrive to deal with the situation. Their raids crippled the economy of Sumer. Travel became unsafe, as did work in the fields, resulting in famine. The Sumerian king list indicates that king Ur-Utu of Uruk was defeated by the barbarian Guti, perhaps around 2150 BC. The Guti swept down, defeated the demoralized Akkadian army, took Akkad, anddestroyed it around 2115 BC.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

    The Gutian language (/ˈɡuːtiən/; alsoQutian) was spoken by the Gutian people, who briefly ruled over Sumer during the Gutian dynasty of Sumer around 2100 BCE. The Gutians lived in the territory between the Zagros and the Tigris in present-day Iranian and Iraqi Kurdistan. Nothing is known about the language except its existence and a list of Gutian rulers names in the Sumerian king list. The existence is attested by a list of languages spoken in the region, found in a clay tablet from the Middle Babylonian period presumably originating from the city of Emar ... ... However, according to Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze and Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov, Gutian language was close to Tocharian languages of the Indo-European family.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_language

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    Prominence of the Irano-Afghan Race in Mesopotamia since Sumerian Times. The Iranic or Irano-Afghan race has dominated the plains of Mesopotamia since Sumerian times, as the learned American anthropologist Prof. C. S. Coon notes,
    "The Irano-Afghan race, prominent since Sumerian times in Mesopotamia, is the chief population element in the entire highland territory from the western border of Iran to northern India. " (Coon 1939, "The Mediterranean World: (4) - The Irano-Afghan Race", p.415)

    http://iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/

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