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Thread: Dodecad 12b - Maltese results

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This is just a one (person) on one comparison. In fact other result posted by seanp says 40.78% Caucasus while mine is only 26.66. One needs to take results from a large group to cover whole populations to get an average, since results defer from one person to the other. Also percentages would vary from different regions within Sicily itself.
    Are you fully Maltese?

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Are you fully Maltese?
    That is something very hard to define (The fully thing). When one take in consideration all the events that happened after the repopulation of the Maltese Islands in the year thousand something from Sicily to the continuous admixture of people that made the Maltese Islands their home for one reason or another through different powers and major events. The only stable common factor seemed to be that who ever was going to be 'Maltese' had to be Christian (more precisely Catholic). My great grand father was English and converted to Catholism. There were many similar situations. Even slaves that were given freedom (during the era of the knights of St. John) had to convert to Christianity. So genetically how can one define a fully Maltese? ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    As for the genetics, yes, you're right about Peloponnesians and I was wrong in the past but I WILL defend myself from false claims being made about my mod behavior on TA:

    Casandrinos was not banned for that reason, he was banned for spam posting, harassing users with homophobic comments and other personal attacks, and the decision was supported by the other Greek moderator, and by the forum administrator. It was not as if I made the decision for personal reasons, it was an accumulation of issues and there was not one mod/admin who disagreed. And no, most Greek users did not leave, they still post there.
    you've been spamming the same threads for years, yet no one banned you, wonder why? I can prove and many ex TA members that you've been over abusing your "privileges" and it's also true you've been made sock accounts and you banned Casandrinos because he stated the obvious "Lyllo and many others with the same aspie behavior are the same socks made by you"
    For some reason you have a negative feeling towards people of Italian descent and i don't know if it's true but someone said that you dislike your West Asian features and blame Italians for the way you look like. So this hate and anger manifested into an online persona.
    Last edited by Blanco; 28-03-17 at 15:08.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    That is something very hard to define (The fully thing). When one take in consideration all the events that happened after the repopulation of the Maltese Islands in the year thousand something from Sicily to the continuous admixture of people that made the Maltese Islands their home for one reason or another through different powers and major events. The only stable common factor seemed to be that who ever was going to be 'Maltese' had to be Christian (more precisely Catholic). My great grand father was English and converted to Catholism. There were many similar situations. Even slaves that were given freedom (during the era of the knights of St. John) had to convert to Christianity. So genetically how can one define a fully Maltese? ;)
    That's a really good answer. An ethnicity is something very hard to define, especially when it comes to places full of history like in southern Europe. It's easier for some northern European ethnicity, because they are all smaller and for a long time more isolated than the rest of the Europeans.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think it a so so answer. So, Malta has experienced multi-culturalism and immigration like other places in Europe. Maltese people are people whose ancestry is from Malta for hundreds of years. Maleth is admixed because of his English foreign ancestor, so he gives a general answer. Maltese people are interrelated distantly. The relationship calculations of 23andMe, Ancestry and FTDNA all exaggerate the relationship of Maltese people. A 3rd -5th cousin is really a 9th, 9th once removed and 10th cousins. Genealogy for Maltese people is hopeless with everyone having the same surnames generation after generation. You need a family tree that goes to the 16th century in order to find a connection.

    I just want to state some things about Maltese people. Maltese people came to Malta in the 11th century from Agrigento, Sicily during the last days of Muslim control in Sicily. These Sicilians were basically Muslim and Mozarabs, though some full-on Berbers were present as Muslim clerics and soldiers. Slavery existed in Malta until the coming of the French in the 18th century, most of these slaves were from Northwest Africa though there were Ethiopian slaves also. A famous Ethiopian slave was Antonia Sancti who gave the surname to the Sant family. The Maltese family Said derives from the descendants of Sultan Cem who failed in his attempt to takeover Ottoman Turkey. Surnames in Malta do not indicate the ethnicity of the holder, for example, Zammit belongs to R1b, Sultana belongs to I-M223 and Bugeja belongs to R-PF6570. Most surnames seem to have low NPE based on their haplogroups.

    I do not understand why Dodecad is still used as it is so old and outdated. Dienekes had a lot of agendas when he invented DIYDodecadWin calculator and his Dodecad GEDmatch calculators. If you want to see how Maltese people play out you need a lot of samples, they may be all interrelated but there is a lot of variation the ancestry breakdown. Some may have North African in double figures and others none at all. It is the luck of the draw. According to Ancestry I am quintessentially Sicilian which pissed me off as I am as Maltese as they come genetically. My ancestors have had nothing to do with Sicily for hundreds of years, there are no Sicilians in my family tree. Maltese people share most with Italians, Greeks and other Balkanians. Jews, despite what Oracles say, do not have much IBD with Maltese people. So all those Jews listed on Oracle are rubbish. Some of you have complained about MyOrigins mark 2, well, I have zero Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewish ancestry.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ponto, as you have said. Maltese derivered from old muslim population of Sicily that's why they are autosomally Sicilian with a major North African admixture (see Lazaridis paper for example). I also think that most of muslim population of Sicily were native converted with a small number of Berber and islamic Andalusians (not modern people of Andalusia of course) but they were expelled. Therefore Sicily was largely settled by mainland Italians, especially from south but not only. Your family has not to do with Sicily in recent time?ok but your ancestors came surely mostly from old Sicilian population in medieval times.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Some other Maltese results from my dataset

    #
    Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 34.27
    2 Atlantic_Med 26.86
    3 Southwest_Asian 12.1
    4 North_European 11.16
    5 Northwest_African 6.49
    6 Gedrosia 5.95
    7 Sub_Saharan 1.67
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.76
    9 East_African 0.48
    10 East_Asian 0.21
    11 Siberian 0.04
    12 South_Asian 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.89
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.6
    3 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.36
    4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.64
    5 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 7.29
    6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 8.48
    7 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.96
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 11.03
    9 O_Italian (Dodecad) 14.26
    10 Tuscan (HGDP) 15.1
    11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 16.08
    12 Cypriots (Behar) 17.33
    13 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.76
    14 Lebanese (Behar) 20.66
    15 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.98
    16 Turks (Behar) 22.1
    17 North_Italian (HGDP) 22.98
    18 Syrians (Behar) 23.6
    19 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 23.73
    20 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 24.08

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Moroccans (Behar) @ 2.86
    2 95.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 4.8% Mozabite (HGDP) @ 2.89
    3 88.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.7% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 2.91
    4 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 3.17
    5 92.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.3% Moroccans (Behar) @ 3.21
    6 57.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 42.6% Greek (Dodecad) @ 3.22
    7 75.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 24.7% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
    8 90.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Moroccan (Dodecad) @ 3.23
    9 75% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 25% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.26
    10 86.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 13.4% German (Dodecad) @ 3.27



    #
    Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 29.77
    2 Atlantic_Med 29.45
    3 North_European 13.34
    4 Southwest_Asian 12.45
    5 Gedrosia 7.16
    6 Northwest_African 5.05
    7 Sub_Saharan 1.3
    8 East_African 1.16
    9 Siberian 0.33

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.86
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.97
    3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.33
    4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 9.81
    5 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.27
    6 O_Italian (Dodecad) 10.54
    7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.14
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 11.2
    9 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 11.21
    10 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.91
    11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.41
    12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.61
    13 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.74
    14 Cypriots (Behar) 21.76
    15 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 21.98
    16 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 22.39
    17 Romanians (Behar) 23.12
    18 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.25
    19 Lebanese (Behar) 24.01
    20 Turks (Behar) 25.46

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 79.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2
    2 79.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.2% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.01
    3 79.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.1% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.02
    4 79.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.8% British (Dodecad) @ 2.05
    5 79% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.05
    6 80% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.07
    7 78.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.4% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.16
    8 78.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.1% English (Dodecad) @ 2.17
    9 78.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.1% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.18
    10 51.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 48.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.24



    #
    Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 40.78
    2 Atlantic_Med 27.22
    3 Southwest_Asian 11.39
    4 North_European 7.82
    5 Northwest_African 5.78
    6 Gedrosia 4
    7 East_African 2.41
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.5
    9 Siberian 0.09
    10 Sub_Saharan 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.98
    2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.46
    3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.55
    4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.77
    5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.07
    6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 9.56
    7 Cypriots (Behar) 12.77
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 13.05
    9 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.36
    10 Turkish (Dodecad) 18.17
    11 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.26
    12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 18.93
    13 TSI30 (Metspalu) 19.67
    14 Lebanese (Behar) 19.85
    15 Turks (Behar) 20.88
    16 Druze (HGDP) 21.03
    17 Syrians (Behar) 23.47
    18 Jordanians (Behar) 23.78
    19 Armenian (Dodecad) 25.02
    20 Palestinian (HGDP) 25.11

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 73.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 26.3% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 3.82
    2 71% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 29% Cypriots (Behar) @ 4.17
    3 81.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 4.52
    4 85.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.8% Armenians (Behar) @ 4.55
    5 84.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 15.4% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 4.66
    6 55.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 44.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 4.74
    7 85.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.4% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 4.78
    8 54.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 45.3% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 4.79
    9 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Georgians (Behar) @ 4.8
    10 85.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.2% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @

  8. #33
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponto View Post
    I think it a so so answer. So, Malta has experienced multi-culturalism and immigration like other places in Europe. Maltese people are people whose ancestry is from Malta for hundreds of years. Maleth is admixed because of his English foreign ancestor, so he gives a general answer. Maltese people are interrelated distantly. The relationship calculations of 23andMe, Ancestry and FTDNA all exaggerate the relationship of Maltese people. A 3rd -5th cousin is really a 9th, 9th once removed and 10th cousins. Genealogy for Maltese people is hopeless with everyone having the same surnames generation after generation. You need a family tree that goes to the 16th century in order to find a connection.
    well well 16th century would be considered very recent on any standard. The top 20 surnames in Malta constitute some 25% of present population and guess what? more then half have a paper trail with 'Foreign' origins as mainly from Sicily (some Spanish and Italian). How pure Maltese is that? More and more surnames entered later with a direct Sicilian / Southern Italian link, Some 3% have British origins and a percentage of French too ( ex. De Puget, Du pui, Pule, Bernard, Fornier). How pure Maltese is that? Please define a pure Maltese dna wise and not considered an admixture? Do not forget the whole male population of Celano (In Italy) in 1223 was exiled to Malta (in the South) and 400 Rhodian refugies arrived with the knights of St John after being ousted from Rhodes by the Ottomans. (Don't forget we are talking in a time when the local population was very very small. So what do you mean exactly by saying Maltese people are people whose ancestry is from Malta for hundreds of years?!

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    The same southern italians and sicilians have also spanish or french link (or northern italian or albanian and greek link). So there are no pure peoples all over the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    Some other Maltese results from my dataset

    #
    Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 34.27
    2 Atlantic_Med 26.86
    3 Southwest_Asian 12.1
    4 North_European 11.16
    5 Northwest_African 6.49
    6 Gedrosia 5.95
    7 Sub_Saharan 1.67
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.76
    9 East_African 0.48
    10 East_Asian 0.21
    11 Siberian 0.04
    12 South_Asian 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.89
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.6
    3 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.36
    4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.64
    5 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 7.29
    6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 8.48
    7 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.96
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 11.03
    9 O_Italian (Dodecad) 14.26
    10 Tuscan (HGDP) 15.1
    11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 16.08
    12 Cypriots (Behar) 17.33
    13 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.76
    14 Lebanese (Behar) 20.66
    15 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.98
    16 Turks (Behar) 22.1
    17 North_Italian (HGDP) 22.98
    18 Syrians (Behar) 23.6
    19 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 23.73
    20 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 24.08

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Moroccans (Behar) @ 2.86
    2 95.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 4.8% Mozabite (HGDP) @ 2.89
    3 88.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.7% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 2.91
    4 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 3.17
    5 92.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.3% Moroccans (Behar) @ 3.21
    6 57.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 42.6% Greek (Dodecad) @ 3.22
    7 75.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 24.7% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
    8 90.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Moroccan (Dodecad) @ 3.23
    9 75% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 25% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.26
    10 86.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 13.4% German (Dodecad) @ 3.27



    #
    Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 29.77
    2 Atlantic_Med 29.45
    3 North_European 13.34
    4 Southwest_Asian 12.45
    5 Gedrosia 7.16
    6 Northwest_African 5.05
    7 Sub_Saharan 1.3
    8 East_African 1.16
    9 Siberian 0.33

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.86
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.97
    3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.33
    4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 9.81
    5 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.27
    6 O_Italian (Dodecad) 10.54
    7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.14
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 11.2
    9 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 11.21
    10 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.91
    11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.41
    12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.61
    13 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.74
    14 Cypriots (Behar) 21.76
    15 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 21.98
    16 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 22.39
    17 Romanians (Behar) 23.12
    18 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.25
    19 Lebanese (Behar) 24.01
    20 Turks (Behar) 25.46

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 79.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2
    2 79.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.2% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.01
    3 79.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.1% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.02
    4 79.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.8% British (Dodecad) @ 2.05
    5 79% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.05
    6 80% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.07
    7 78.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.4% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.16
    8 78.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.1% English (Dodecad) @ 2.17
    9 78.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.1% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.18
    10 51.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 48.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.24



    #
    Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 40.78
    2 Atlantic_Med 27.22
    3 Southwest_Asian 11.39
    4 North_European 7.82
    5 Northwest_African 5.78
    6 Gedrosia 4
    7 East_African 2.41
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.5
    9 Siberian 0.09
    10 Sub_Saharan 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.98
    2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.46
    3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.55
    4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.77
    5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.07
    6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 9.56
    7 Cypriots (Behar) 12.77
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 13.05
    9 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.36
    10 Turkish (Dodecad) 18.17
    11 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.26
    12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 18.93
    13 TSI30 (Metspalu) 19.67
    14 Lebanese (Behar) 19.85
    15 Turks (Behar) 20.88
    16 Druze (HGDP) 21.03
    17 Syrians (Behar) 23.47
    18 Jordanians (Behar) 23.78
    19 Armenian (Dodecad) 25.02
    20 Palestinian (HGDP) 25.11

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 73.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 26.3% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 3.82
    2 71% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 29% Cypriots (Behar) @ 4.17
    3 81.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 4.52
    4 85.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.8% Armenians (Behar) @ 4.55
    5 84.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 15.4% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 4.66
    6 55.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 44.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 4.74
    7 85.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.4% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 4.78
    8 54.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 45.3% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 4.79
    9 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Georgians (Behar) @ 4.8
    10 85.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.2% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @
    Typical trend of Maltese's results. They are Sicilian/Southern Italian with some more North African or Near Eastern link. I guess because according to Ponto the original core of population if the island was resettled by muslims from western Sicily (eastern Sicily was not islamized) who were mostly native Sicilians (Greek-Roman with local Italic peoples) with some intermarriages with Berbers, while the deportation of Sicilian muslims and the subsequently repopulation of large part of Sicily with mainland Italians have reduced North African admix in Sicily (which is indeed insignificant). We should consider that the people of Celano also settled in Calabria and Sicily over than Malta. I always thought that this extra North African had to do with the pre-Roman past (Sicily and South Italy mostly Greek, Malta mostly Punic) but if the islands were depopulated by muslims is a nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Typical trend of Maltese's results. They are Sicilian/Southern Italian with some more North African or Near Eastern link. I guess because according to Ponto the original core of population if the island was resettled by muslims from western Sicily (eastern Sicily was not islamized) who were mostly native Sicilians (Greek-Roman with local Italic peoples) with some intermarriages with Berbers, while the deportation of Sicilian muslims and the subsequently repopulation of large part of Sicily with mainland Italians have reduced North African admix in Sicily (which is indeed insignificant). We should consider that the people of Celano also settled in Calabria and Sicily over than Malta. I always thought that this extra North African had to do with the pre-Roman past (Sicily and South Italy mostly Greek, Malta mostly Punic) but if the islands were depopulated by muslims is a nonsense.
    *) Although ancient historians are not always reliable the accounts by Al-Himyarī's not only recount that the then Byzantine (at least culturally) population was eradicated, but Fishermen from Sicily used to visit the uninhabited Island and also to harvest wood. So part of todays Maltese population has to be attributed to the resettlement that took place later. (Since other major events happened later)

    *) Do we have any regional dna sampling from different regions in Sicily. It is very probable in my opinion that Malta would compare well say the South West regions to include as you put it the more North Africa Middle eastern link. Most Sicilian studies are grouped as an Island as a whole. Sicily is a huge Island and I am pretty sure there are variations for the three corners (so to speak)

    *) It very much seems that the events of Expulsions, Christianization and Latinization that happened after 1224 (with the expulsions of Muslims to Lucera) and Celano events were very much in line in the Maltese Islands as a policy dictated by Palermo to which they were part of.

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    Most studies about Sicily (or Italy) divided the island between west and east. Sazzini uses samples from Agrigento for west and Catania for the east but they plot almost identical with Agrigento a bit more continental in some individuals, while the study of Fiorito uses Ragusa and Trapani, Eurogenes have Siracusa for east and Trapani for west. Trapani seems to be more "continental". Maybe zones like Mazara could approach Malta but Agrigento looks like regular Sicilian sample. But we talk about 2/3% more of MENA for Malta, nothing of exaggerate.
    The muslim expulsion is a long and complex history, after king Ruggero II death, there were three anti-muslim pogroms, and Federico II eradicated muslim presence in Sicily in a civil war between 1219 and 1246. I dunno for Malta if it was the same, I haven't historic books about it, but I know many celanesi settled also in Sicily and Calabria over than Malta, but many of them returned to Abruzzo.

    http://www.museodellamarsica.benicul...rigini-al-1227

    "I celanesi furono esiliati in Sicilia, Calabria e Malta e l resteranno fino al 1227."

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    On MDLP K23, most Maltese I have seen score "Sicily_Agrigento" or "Sicily_West" in their top 5, which makes sense as the vast majority of their ancestry, and their surnames come from there. The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to.

    On GEDmatch's "One to Many," nearly every person from Agrigento or Caltanissetta I have put in there has close relatives (this high IBD sharing) in Malta. Even the people from inland Caltanissetta, so Maltese might have ancestry from deep inland and not just the coasts. I know a Maltese guy who has one of the surnames mentioned above and he can trace back to Agrigento in the 1700s. Remember also that Sicilians came to Malta with these surnames, so if you can figure out when the surnames originated, it had to be after that, that they traveled to Malta.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    On MDLP K23, most Maltese I have seen score "Sicily_Agrigento" or "Sicily_West" in their top 5, which makes sense as the vast majority of their ancestry, and their surnames come from there. The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to.

    On GEDmatch's "One to Many," nearly every person from Agrigento or Caltanissetta I have put in there has close relatives (this high IBD sharing) in Malta. Even the people from inland Caltanissetta, so Maltese might have ancestry from deep inland and not just the coasts. I know a Maltese guy who has one of the surnames mentioned above and he can trace back to Agrigento in the 1700s. Remember also that Sicilians came to Malta with these surnames, so if you can figure out when the surnames originated, it had to be after that, that they traveled to Malta.
    What is your source for that comment?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post

    The muslim expulsion is a long and complex history, after king Ruggero II death, there were three anti-muslim pogroms, and Federico II eradicated muslim presence in Sicily in a civil war between 1219 and 1246. I dunno for Malta if it was the same, I haven't historic books about it, but I know many celanesi settled also in Sicily and Calabria over than Malta, but many of them returned to Abruzzo.

    http://www.museodellamarsica.benicul...rigini-al-1227

    "I celanesi furono esiliati in Sicilia, Calabria e Malta e l� resteranno fino al 1227."
    The Maltese Islands were part of Sicily for 440 years. So all the policies and events were those of Sicily as a whole. Until recently The Maltese Islands were more or less considered as a military strategic out post, mainly because of its excellent harbors. Because of the instability of the time It was in the interest of Federico II to strengthen Malta's defenses by sending Norman and Sicilian and to make sure the policies took place as other wise they can serve as an excellent stepping stone for attacks or invations.

    Prof. Wettinger who is a well respected local Medieval historian goes on to say that "there is no doubt that by the beginning of Angevin times [i.e. shortly after 1249] no professed Muslim Maltese remained either as free persons or even as serfs on the island."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta

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    Oracle should be interpretated with combined population, not just with only one population. Maltese people have not just only surnames from Agrigento but from all over the island, and it was part of the Contea di Modica for lot of time. And part of Maltese surnames are not present in Sicily but localized, like Fenech, Said or Mercieca.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    On MDLP K23, most Maltese I have seen score "Sicily_Agrigento" or "Sicily_West" in their top 5, which makes sense as the vast majority of their ancestry, and their surnames come from there. The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to.

    On GEDmatch's "One to Many," nearly every person from Agrigento or Caltanissetta I have put in there has close relatives (this high IBD sharing) in Malta. Even the people from inland Caltanissetta, so Maltese might have ancestry from deep inland and not just the coasts. I know a Maltese guy who has one of the surnames mentioned above and he can trace back to Agrigento in the 1700s. Remember also that Sicilians came to Malta with these surnames, so if you can figure out when the surnames originated, it had to be after that, that they traveled to Malta.
    Very few Maltese have tested themselves on Oracle, Ponto is one and he has posted his GEDmatch id (here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...781#post505781). This is his personal MDLP K23 (I can remove the post if he don't want to see his personal results):

    He does not get Agrigento or Sicily West but Sicily East as first Sicilian population.

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 37.72
    2 European_Early_Farmers 20.54
    3 Near_East 12.14
    4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 9.12
    5 North_African 8.92
    6 South_Central_Asian 7.72
    7 Subsaharian 1.23
    8 Austronesian 0.82
    9 Australoid 0.63
    10 Archaic_Human 0.37
    11 East_Siberian 0.34
    12 Archaic_African 0.23
    13 East_African 0.19
    14 Paleo_Siberian 0.05

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew ( ) 4.28
    2 Turk_Jew ( ) 4.58
    3 French_Jew ( ) 4.59
    4 Italian_Jew ( ) 4.9
    5 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 5.17
    6 Sicilian_East ( ) 5.2
    7 Ashkenazi ( ) 6.71
    8 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 6.76
    9 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 6.9
    10 Cretan ( ) 7.11
    11 Moroccan_Jew ( ) 7.54
    12 Sicilian_West ( ) 7.61
    13 Romanian_Jew ( ) 7.79
    14 Syrian_Jew ( ) 7.9
    15 Maltese ( ) 7.91
    16 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 8.35
    17 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 8.64
    18 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 8.98
    19 Tunisian_Jew ( ) 9.08
    20 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 9.59

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 87.6% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 12.4% Saharawi ( ) @ 1.52
    2 83.7% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 16.3% Algerian ( ) @ 1.59
    3 82.7% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 17.3% Shaigi_Sudan ( ) @ 1.6
    4 86.9% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 13.1% Berber_WGA ( ) @ 1.64
    5 85.9% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 14.1% Morocco_South ( ) @ 1.72
    6 82.3% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 17.7% Tunisian ( ) @ 1.8
    7 90.7% Cretan ( ) + 9.3% Morocco_South ( ) @ 1.9
    8 89.2% Cretan ( ) + 10.8% Algerian ( ) @ 1.93
    9 88.5% Cretan ( ) + 11.5% Shaigi_Sudan ( ) @ 1.98
    10 84.1% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 15.9% Moroccan ( ) @ 2.14
    11 74.4% Maltese ( ) + 25.6% Iraqi_Jew ( ) @ 2.15
    12 91.5% Cretan ( ) + 8.5% Berber_WGA ( ) @ 2.18
    13 76.8% Maltese ( ) + 23.2% Jew_Tat ( ) @ 2.18
    14 75.5% Maltese ( ) + 24.5% Iranian_Jew ( ) @ 2.19
    15 72.8% Maltese ( ) + 27.2% Georgian_Jew ( ) @ 2.26
    16 92.1% Cretan ( ) + 7.9% Saharawi ( ) @ 2.28
    17 71.6% Maltese ( ) + 28.4% Assyrian_Iraqi ( ) @ 2.32
    18 54.3% Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) + 45.7% Syrian_Jew ( ) @ 2.36
    19 80.2% French_Jew ( ) + 19.8% Turk_Adana ( ) @ 2.36
    20 67.9% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 32.1% Azov_Greek ( ) @ 2.38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    The Maltese Islands were part of Sicily for 440 years. So all the policies and events were those of Sicily as a whole. Until recently The Maltese Islands were more or less considered as a military strategic out post, mainly because of its excellent harbors. Because of the instability of the time It was in the interest of Federico II to strengthen Malta's defenses by sending Norman and Sicilian defenses and make sure the policies took place.

    Prof. Wettinger who is a well respected local Medieval historian goes on to say that "there is no doubt that by the beginning of Angevin times [i.e. shortly after 1249] no professed Muslim Maltese remained either as free persons or even as serfs on the island."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta
    Carlo II d'Angi removed the last muslim presence of Lucera. By the way, do you know if there were in Malta other mainland Italian migrations other than Celanesi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Oracle should be interpretated with combined population, not just with only one population. Maltese people have not just only surnames from Agrigento but from all over the island, and it was part of the Contea di Modica for lot of time. And part of Maltese surnames are not present in Sicily but localized, like Fenech, Said or Mercieca.
    This is also very interesting. We know example the origins of Said and Sultana are of different origins probably more linked to Turkish exiles. We have surnames that start with Bu, like Busutil, Buhagiar, Butiegig, Bugeja Mamo Bugibba (now extint) apart from Mintoff, Xuereb,Sciberras and so on who probably trace back to Muslim Malta. Prior to dna one was assuming that these surnames would be the older Maltese population derived from genetically North African or Middleastern stock. However in most instances DNA is proving a trend otherwise with the few being tested so far (of these surnames) being G and J2 with a southern European link. This indicates the fact that indigenous inhabitants have actually converted to Islam and not a result of direct migration from North Africa and Middle east, with the surnames being created during Aglabaid and fatmid rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Carlo II d'Angi� removed the last muslim presence of Lucera. By the way, do you know if there were in Malta other mainland Italian migrations other than Celanesi?
    I dont know of any other migrations during the Latinisation and Christinazation programmes of the 13th Century, but with the arrival of the Knights and again the growing economy round the harbor there is a good number of church records of marriages between locals and Sicilians and southern Italians (I think a number from Naples) and some French and Spanish too. I would consider this period as the later migration period after the 13th century events. This would give the later wave of surnames that are still present today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This is also very interesting. We know example the origins of Said and Sultana are of different origins probably more linked to Turkish exiles. We have surnames that start with Bu, like Busutil, Buhagiar, Butiegig, Bugeja Mamo Bugibba (now extint) apart from Mintoff, Xuereb,Sciberras and so on who probably trace back to Muslim Malta. Prior to dna one was assuming that these surnames would be the older Maltese population derived from genetically North African or Middleastern stock. However in most instances DNA is proving a trend otherwise with the few being tested so far (of these surnames) being G and J2 with a southern European link. This indicates the fact that indigenous inhabitants have actually converted to Islam and not a result of direct migration from North Africa and Middle east, with the surnames being created during Aglabaid and fatmid rule.
    Yes, most of muslims were indeed indigenous converted not transplanted north africans. The same Lucera has very few E-M81.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Oracle should be interpretated with combined population, not just with only one population. Maltese people have not just only surnames from Agrigento but from all over the island, and it was part of the Contea di Modica for lot of time. And part of Maltese surnames are not present in Sicily but localized, like Fenech, Said or Mercieca.
    This is why I asked for Oreo Cookie/Sikelliot's sources for the following comment:

    "The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to."

    It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.

    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Spiteri is also present in various areas, although mostly in Licata.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    The only one that is specific to Agrigento is Attard, which is exceedingly rare. Who knows where it or any of these names were present 800 years ago?
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...5#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Modern distributions are not the best way to go if you have records available which tell you the origin.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is why I asked for Oreo Cookie/Sikelliot's sources for the following comment:

    "The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to."

    It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.

    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Spiteri is also present in various areas, although mostly in Licata.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    The only one that is specific to Agrigento is Attard, which is exceedingly rare. Who knows where it or any of these names were present 800 years ago?
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...5#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Modern distributions are not the best way to go if you have records available which tell you the origin.
    Attard derives from Attardo. But this guy doesn't understand that Sicilians moved and intermarried with people from all over the island during the centuries...so surnames are present everywhere now.

    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.WRXSXlTyjIU

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.

    The only one that is specific to Agrigento is Attard, which is exceedingly rare. Who knows where it or any of these names were present 800 years ago?
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...5#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Modern distributions are not the best way to go if you have records available which tell you the origin.
    Example for the surname Attard there is this description.

    “In questa famiglia ritroviamo essere stato in feudo il territorio chaimato la Saccaya, di cui ne fu’ investito Francesco Attardo dal Re’ Federico, come si legge in un registro della Regia Cancellaria degl’ anni 1360, fino al 1366, a. fogl. 432, il qual feudo gli fu’ conceduto per se, e suoi legittimi eredi da lui discendenti, sotto servigio militare d’un Balestriere. Nell’ Alicata Citta della Sicilia risiede un ramo principale cola’ trasferito da Malta con la perosna di Gio Maria Attardo, I successori del quale ivi hoggi con molta honorevolezza nobilmente vivono. In Malta fiorisce al presente nella medesima famiglia il P. Maestro Pietro Attardo Domenicano Consultore del S. Officio molti stimato & accreditato nel suo Ordine si’ per I carichi, e religiosa osservanza, come per la dottrina speculative, lungamente dimostrata nelle publiche Cattedre. ” (From Abela’s “Della Descrittione di Malta del Commendatore Abela” (1647))

    https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_O16hNFXY25MC

    here it is described as such by prof Wettinger... and Actardo was a Germanic personal name which has become one of the main surnames of the two islands right down to the present day and had certainly already been closely associated with casali Actard



    https://vassallohistory.wordpress.co...tese-surnames/

    Attard(o) is the 8th most popular name on the Islands. Camilleri, Farrugia and Vella are the 2nd and 3rd and 4th most popular names. Spiteri is the 9th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is why I asked for Oreo Cookie/Sikelliot's sources for the following comment:

    "The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to."

    It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.

    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Spiteri is also present in various areas, although mostly in Licata.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    The only one that is specific to Agrigento is Attard, which is exceedingly rare. Who knows where it or any of these names were present 800 years ago?
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...5#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

    Modern distributions are not the best way to go if you have records available which tell you the origin.

    http://italia.indettaglio.it/eng/cog...i_sicilia.html

    They all predominate in those provinces. This gives numbers.

    Attardo is highest in Palma de Montechiaro.
    Vella in Gela but also in many towns in Agrigento, Palermo, Caltanissetta.
    Farruggia in Agrigento, Gela, Aragona in that order, then other western Sicilian towns.
    Spiteri in Licata and Favara.
    Portelli, another common one, from all along the south coast, Scicli in Ragusa to Gela, but also in Messina.
    Camilleri is mostly Palermitan but also found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta.

    So yes they can be found all throughout the island but they are by and large concentrated very heavily in Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Palermo. You can type them in there and see the numbers, I tried to link you but it doesn't save the page when you search on it.

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