Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Expansion of European patrilineages

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Expansion of European patrilineages

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms8152.html

    The proportion of Europeans descending from Neolithic farmers ~10 thousand years ago (KYA) or Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers has been much debated. The male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) has been widely applied to this question, but unbiased estimates of diversity and time depth have been lacking. Here we show that European patrilineages underwent a recent continent-wide expansion. Resequencing of 3.7 Mb of MSY DNA in 334 males, comprising 17 European and Middle Eastern populations, defines a phylogeny containing 5,996 single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

    Haplogroups E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70 contain long branches with deep-rooting nodes, whereas I1-M253, N1c-M178, R1a-M198 and R1b-M269 show much shallower genealogies.



    Interesting paper............
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Arame's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    182


    Country: Armenia



    Look at this table
    It is very interesting.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...ms8152_T1.html

  3. #3
    Regular Member Arame's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    182


    Country: Armenia



    There is some critics
    Now, about how academic studies work: I was told today that this study had "Lots of new samples!" but to me it seems in fact that these are *exactly* the same samples from Hallast (2015), minus the non-Europeans and non-Levantines. The mutation rate used here is 0.92–1.09) × 10−e9 instead of 0.82 * 10e-9. Can anyone take a set of already published samples, cut out a bunch of them, paste some fuzzy pictures from the earlier paper, use a wrong mutation rate, and then publish a paper in a major academic journal? YES, apparently so. Then you can claim that you "published!" so you don't "perish" (get fired for not doing any research). Whew!
    another from Maju

    Well, I just made a quick calculation based on the E-M35 age estimate of 18 Ka provided in table 1. If we would have to accept those chronologies at face value, then the E/F (=DE-CF) divergence node would be just 28 Ka old. Not 60 nor 70 nor anything logical: barely 30 Ka!!!

    This means that you have to multiply x4 all age "estimates", sorry. Intra-disciplinary circular thinking at its worst but very illuminating, I must say.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    There is some critics


    another from Maju
    what is he calculating?

    A TMRCA is the time that a marker expanded into their own subclades. once it splits again then that is a start of another TMRCA for that subclade

  5. #5
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    I think TMRCA calculations are far from perfect today. Especially N1c1 should be older than 3,600 or 4,700.
    N1c was found in Smolensk ~ 4,500 years ago. I would not be surprised if that was N1c1 already.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243


    Country: United States



    The age estimate of r1b M269 is interesting at 5,550 years, I always thought it was older than that.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    05-03-14
    Posts
    14


    Country: France



    3 members found this post helpful.

    Supplementary Table 8. MSY-haplogroups in ancient European samples

    and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):

    Culture Country YBP Hg Simple hg N
    Mesolithic_HG Luxembourg 8'000 I2a1b-L178 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'700 I2a-L460 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1a1a-L672 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1b-M423 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1b2a1-L147.2 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2c2-PF3827 I2 5
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'600 H2-L281 H2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Russia 7'600 R1b1-L278 R1b1 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Russia 7'300 R1a1-M459 R1a 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'300 F*-P135 F* 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'300 I2a1b1-L161.1 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'200 T1a-PF5604 T 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a-PF3147 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a-PF3185 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a1-PF3170 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'100 C1a2-V20/V184 C1 2
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'100 R1b1-M415 R1b1 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'000 G2a2a1-PF3155 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'000 E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 E1b1b 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'000 G2a-P15 G2a 5
    Early_Neolithic Spain 6'900 C1a2-V20 C1 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 6'400 I2a-L460 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 6'300 F-M89 F* 2
    Early_Neolithic Germany 6'200 G2a2b-S126 G2a 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'900 F*-P316 F* 1
    Middle_Neolithic Spain 5'800 H2/I2a1a1-L672 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Spain 5'800 I2a2a1-CTS9183 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'600 R*?-P224 R* 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 F-M89 F* 3
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 G2a-P15 G2a 5
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 G2a2b-S126 G2a 4
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I-M170 I* 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I1-M253 I1 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Neolithic_HG Sweden 5'600 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'200 I2a1b1a-L1498 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Italy 5'200 G2a2a1b-L91 G2a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a-P297 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a-L49.1 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-Z2105 R1b1a 1
    Middle_Neolithic France 5'000 G2a-P15 G2a 20
    Middle_Neolithic France 5'000 I2a1-P37.2 I2 2
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 4'900 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 4'800 R1b1a2a2-Z2105 R1b1a 1
    Middle_Neolithic France 4'700 I2a1 I2 2
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'600 R1b-M343 R1b 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'600 R1b1a2-M269 R1b1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'400 R1a1a1-M417 R1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'300 R1b1a2a1a2-P312 R1b1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'100 R1a1-SRY10831.2 R1a 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2-L68 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2a2-L368 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2c2-PF3827 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 3'100 R1a1a1b1a2-S204 R1a 1
    Late_Bronze_Age Hungary ? J2a1-S57 J2 1

    And summary by Culture/Hg :

    Culture Total
    Mesolithic_HG 1
    I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer 11
    I2 9
    R1a 1
    R1b1 1
    Early_Neolithic 38
    C1 3
    E1b1b 1
    F* 6
    G2a 19
    H2 1
    I* 1
    I1 1
    I2 4
    R1b1 1
    T 1
    Neolithic_HG 1
    I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic 30
    F* 1
    G2a 21
    I2 7
    R* 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya 7
    R1b1a 7
    Late_Neolithic 5
    R1a 2
    R1b 1
    R1b1a 2
    Early_Bronze_Age 4
    I2 3
    R1a 1
    Late_Bronze_Age 1
    J2 1
    Grand Total 98

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-11-14
    Posts
    179

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a l497 s10458
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

    Ethnic group
    Dutch / French
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms8152.html

    The proportion of Europeans descending from Neolithic farmers ~10 thousand years ago (KYA) or Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers has been much debated. The male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) has been widely applied to this question, but unbiased estimates of diversity and time depth have been lacking. Here we show that European patrilineages underwent a recent continent-wide expansion. Resequencing of 3.7 Mb of MSY DNA in 334 males, comprising 17 European and Middle Eastern populations, defines a phylogeny containing 5,996 single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

    Haplogroups E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70 contain long branches with deep-rooting nodes, whereas I1-M253, N1c-M178, R1a-M198 and R1b-M269 show much shallower genealogies.



    Interesting paper............
    Thanks Sile, very interesting.

  9. #9
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):

    Culture Country YBP Hg Simple hg N
    Mesolithic_HG Luxembourg 8'000 I2a1b-L178 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'700 I2a-L460 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1a1a-L672 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1b-M423 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1b2a1-L147.2 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2c2-PF3827 I2 5
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'600 H2-L281 H2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Russia 7'600 R1b1-L278 R1b1 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Russia 7'300 R1a1-M459 R1a 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'300 F*-P135 F* 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'300 I2a1b1-L161.1 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'200 T1a-PF5604 T 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a-PF3147 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a-PF3185 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a1-PF3170 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'100 C1a2-V20/V184 C1 2
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'100 R1b1-M415 R1b1 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'000 G2a2a1-PF3155 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'000 E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 E1b1b 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'000 G2a-P15 G2a 5
    Early_Neolithic Spain 6'900 C1a2-V20 C1 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 6'400 I2a-L460 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 6'300 F-M89 F* 2
    Early_Neolithic Germany 6'200 G2a2b-S126 G2a 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'900 F*-P316 F* 1
    Middle_Neolithic Spain 5'800 H2/I2a1a1-L672 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Spain 5'800 I2a2a1-CTS9183 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'600 R*?-P224 R* 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 F-M89 F* 3
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 G2a-P15 G2a 5
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 G2a2b-S126 G2a 4
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I-M170 I* 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I1-M253 I1 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Neolithic_HG Sweden 5'600 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'200 I2a1b1a-L1498 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Italy 5'200 G2a2a1b-L91 G2a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a-P297 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a-L49.1 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-Z2105 R1b1a 1
    Middle_Neolithic France 5'000 G2a-P15 G2a 20
    Middle_Neolithic France 5'000 I2a1-P37.2 I2 2
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 4'900 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 4'800 R1b1a2a2-Z2105 R1b1a 1
    Middle_Neolithic France 4'700 I2a1 I2 2
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'600 R1b-M343 R1b 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'600 R1b1a2-M269 R1b1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'400 R1a1a1-M417 R1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'300 R1b1a2a1a2-P312 R1b1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'100 R1a1-SRY10831.2 R1a 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2-L68 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2a2-L368 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2c2-PF3827 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 3'100 R1a1a1b1a2-S204 R1a 1
    Late_Bronze_Age Hungary ? J2a1-S57 J2 1
    where did they get the info re the sublcades of the Swedish Huntergatherers 7700 YBP ?
    who tested for subclades ?
    it is the first time I see these subclades assigned and I'm not sure it is correct

  10. #10
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    where did they get the info re the sublcades of the Swedish Huntergatherers 7700 YBP ?
    who tested for subclades ?
    it is the first time I see these subclades assigned and I'm not sure it is correct
    testing of ancients always continues ...............sometimes for years...................the LBK_EN ones where found in 2012 , yet their ydna was discovered in late 2014

  11. #11
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    as per dienekes site, it seems that dating formula is slightly different

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2015...r-fathers.html

  12. #12
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):

    Culture Country YBP Hg Simple hg N
    Mesolithic_HG Luxembourg 8'000 I2a1b-L178 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'700 I2a-L460 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1a1a-L672 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1b-M423 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2a1b2a1-L147.2 I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Sweden 7'700 I2c2-PF3827 I2 5
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'600 H2-L281 H2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Russia 7'600 R1b1-L278 R1b1 1
    Hunter_Gatherer Russia 7'300 R1a1-M459 R1a 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'300 F*-P135 F* 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'300 I2a1b1-L161.1 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'200 T1a-PF5604 T 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a-PF3147 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a-PF3185 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'100 G2a2a1-PF3170 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 7'100 C1a2-V20/V184 C1 2
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'100 R1b1-M415 R1b1 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 7'000 G2a2a1-PF3155 G2a 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'000 E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 E1b1b 1
    Early_Neolithic Spain 7'000 G2a-P15 G2a 5
    Early_Neolithic Spain 6'900 C1a2-V20 C1 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 6'400 I2a-L460 I2 1
    Early_Neolithic Germany 6'300 F-M89 F* 2
    Early_Neolithic Germany 6'200 G2a2b-S126 G2a 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'900 F*-P316 F* 1
    Middle_Neolithic Spain 5'800 H2/I2a1a1-L672 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Spain 5'800 I2a2a1-CTS9183 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'600 R*?-P224 R* 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 F-M89 F* 3
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 G2a-P15 G2a 5
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 G2a2b-S126 G2a 4
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I-M170 I* 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I1-M253 I1 1
    Early_Neolithic Hungary 5'600 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Neolithic_HG Sweden 5'600 I2a1-P37.2 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Germany 5'200 I2a1b1a-L1498 I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic Italy 5'200 G2a2a1b-L91 G2a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a-P297 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a-L49.1 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 5'100 R1b1a2a2-Z2105 R1b1a 1
    Middle_Neolithic France 5'000 G2a-P15 G2a 20
    Middle_Neolithic France 5'000 I2a1-P37.2 I2 2
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 4'900 R1b1a2a2-CTS1078 R1b1a 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya Russia 4'800 R1b1a2a2-Z2105 R1b1a 1
    Middle_Neolithic France 4'700 I2a1 I2 2
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'600 R1b-M343 R1b 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'600 R1b1a2-M269 R1b1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'400 R1a1a1-M417 R1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'300 R1b1a2a1a2-P312 R1b1a 1
    Late_Neolithic Germany 4'100 R1a1-SRY10831.2 R1a 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2-L68 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2a2-L368 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 4'100 I2c2-PF3827 I2 1
    Early_Bronze_Age Germany 3'100 R1a1a1b1a2-S204 R1a 1
    Late_Bronze_Age Hungary ? J2a1-S57 J2 1

    And summary by Culture/Hg :

    Culture Total
    Mesolithic_HG 1
    I2 1
    Hunter_Gatherer 11
    I2 9
    R1a 1
    R1b1 1
    Early_Neolithic 38
    C1 3
    E1b1b 1
    F* 6
    G2a 19
    H2 1
    I* 1
    I1 1
    I2 4
    R1b1 1
    T 1
    Neolithic_HG 1
    I2 1
    Middle_Neolithic 30
    F* 1
    G2a 21
    I2 7
    R* 1
    Steppe_Yamnaya 7
    R1b1a 7
    Late_Neolithic 5
    R1a 2
    R1b 1
    R1b1a 2
    Early_Bronze_Age 4
    I2 3
    R1a 1
    Late_Bronze_Age 1
    J2 1
    Grand Total 98
    my surprise, is still not many found in Italy

  13. #13
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    testing of ancients always continues ...............sometimes for years...................the LBK_EN ones where found in 2012 , yet their ydna was discovered in late 2014
    I understand that, but that does not mean these data are correct.
    I'd like to know who made these subclade assignments and how much coverage of the DNA they got. A single reading is not reliable if it is not confirmed by more readings.

  14. #14
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have recently made two maps of ancient Y-DNA from Europe.

    First represents the Mesolithic-Neolithic period in Europe, second represents the Chalcolithic-Iron Age period in Central Europe only.

    1. The distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe in period ca. 6000 BC - ca. 3000 BC, with a few exceptions after 3000 BC:


    The exceptions (after 3000 BC) include e.g. two samples from Poland - they are dated at approximately 2800 BC and belong to Corded Ware culture, but I decided to include them because probably they represent assimilated Neolithic population in that new Corded culture.

    Also in Russia near the border with Belarus (in Smolensk oblast and Pskov oblast) only one sample of R1a is dated at 4000 BC, while the other 3 samples (two R1a and one N1c) are dated at 2500 BC - these 3 belong to "Zhizhitskaya culture" (I have no idea what it was).

    Each circle in the map represents one sample, but note that locations are not accurate (for example most of G2 samples from southern France are from just one cemetery - they were found in the Treilles cave in Saint-Jean-et-Saint-Paul commune of Aveyron department):

    I1 oraz I = I1 and I (one of these 2 samples is I1 from Hungary dated at ca. 7500 years ago, the other one is only given as I):



    =================================

    Second map:

    2. Y-DNA hg-s in Central Europe in period ca. 2800 BC - ca. 700 BC (11 out of 12 samples of I2a are from one cemetery - a cave near Dorste):

    Legend (in English):

    KCS = Corded Ware cultural horizon
    KPP = Urnfield cultural horizon
    BB = Bell Beaker cultural horizon
    KŁ = Lusatian culture
    KH = Hallstatt culture
    KU = Unetice culture
    Kyjatice culture
    Mezocsat culture

    I2 klad niepodany = I2 subclade not given (these are Unetice culture samples from Eulau)
    J albo I = J or I (one of two CWC samples from Jagodno from ca. 2800 BC)

    Such text = places of burials

    In this map I included also the same two samples from Poland (dated at ca. 2800 BC) as in the first map:



    The map shows burials from period ca. 2800 BC (Jagodno) to ca. 700 BC (Mitterkirchen).

  15. #15
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    What can be seen is a strong correlation between Bell Beakers (BB) and R1b, as well as between Corded Wares (KCS) and R1a.

    By contrast Urnfield cultures are mixed, with R1a in the east and R1b in the west.

    Bell Beaker cultures are thought to have originated in Iberia - so I wonder what is the source of R1b in those cultures:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins

    There have been numerous proposals by archaeologists as to the origins of the Bell Beaker culture, and debates continued on for decades. Several regions of origin have been postulated, notably the Iberian peninsula, the Netherlands and Central Europe.
    Because we have Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs cave in northern Spain, but we also have R1b from Samara Oblast in Russia.

    Could it be that eastern R1b first made its way to Iberia, and then expanded from Iberia with Bell Beakers ???

    Or perhaps those cultures originated in the Netherlands or in Central Europe, and not in Iberia ???

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •