Expansion of European patrilineages

[Sile]

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms8152.html

The proportion of Europeans descending from Neolithic farmers ~10 thousand years ago (KYA) or Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers has been much debated. The male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) has been widely applied to this question, but unbiased estimates of diversity and time depth have been lacking. Here we show that European patrilineages underwent a recent continent-wide expansion. Resequencing of 3.7 Mb of MSY DNA in 334 males, comprising 17 European and Middle Eastern populations, defines a phylogeny containing 5,996 single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

Haplogroups E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70 contain long branches with deep-rooting nodes, whereas I1-M253, N1c-M178, R1a-M198 and R1b-M269 show much shallower genealogies.


Interesting paper............

[Arame]

Look at this table
It is very interesting.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...ms8152_T1.html

[Arame]

There is some critics

Now, about how academic studies work: I was told today that this study had "Lots of new samples!" but to me it seems in fact that these are *exactly* the same samples from Hallast (2015), minus the non-Europeans and non-Levantines. The mutation rate used here is 0.92–1.09) × 10−e9 instead of 0.82 * 10e-9. Can anyone take a set of already published samples, cut out a bunch of them, paste some fuzzy pictures from the earlier paper, use a wrong mutation rate, and then publish a paper in a major academic journal? YES, apparently so. Then you can claim that you "published!" so you don't "perish" (get fired for not doing any research). Whew!

another from Maju

Well, I just made a quick calculation based on the E-M35 age estimate of 18 Ka provided in table 1. If we would have to accept those chronologies at face value, then the E/F (=DE-CF) divergence node would be just 28 Ka old. Not 60 nor 70 nor anything logical: barely 30 Ka!!!

This means that you have to multiply x4 all age "estimates", sorry. Intra-disciplinary circular thinking at its worst but very illuminating, I must say.

[Sile]

There is some critics


another from Maju

what is he calculating?

A TMRCA is the time that a marker expanded into their own subclades. once it splits again then that is a start of another TMRCA for that subclade

[arvistro]

I think TMRCA calculations are far from perfect today. Especially N1c1 should be older than 3,600 or 4,700.
N1c was found in Smolensk ~ 4,500 years ago. I would not be surprised if that was N1c1 already.

[Expredel]

The age estimate of r1b M269 is interesting at 5,550 years, I always thought it was older than that.

[HQ420832]

and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):

Culture	Country	YBP	Hg	Simple hg	N
Mesolithic_HG	Luxembourg	8'000	I2a1b-L178	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'700	I2a-L460	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1a1a-L672	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1b-M423	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1b2a1-L147.2	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2c2-PF3827	I2	5
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'600	H2-L281	H2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Russia	7'600	R1b1-L278	R1b1	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Russia	7'300	R1a1-M459	R1a	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'300	F*-P135	F*	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'300	I2a1b1-L161.1	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'200	T1a-PF5604	T	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a-PF3147	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a-PF3185	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a1-PF3170	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'100	C1a2-V20/V184	C1	2
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'100	R1b1-M415	R1b1	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'000	G2a2a1-PF3155	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'000	E1b1b1a1b1a-V13	E1b1b	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'000	G2a-P15	G2a	5
Early_Neolithic	Spain	6'900	C1a2-V20	C1	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	6'400	I2a-L460	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	6'300	F-M89	F*	2
Early_Neolithic	Germany	6'200	G2a2b-S126	G2a	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'900	F*-P316	F*	1
Middle_Neolithic	Spain	5'800	H2/I2a1a1-L672	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Spain	5'800	I2a2a1-CTS9183	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'600	R*?-P224	R*	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	F-M89	F*	3
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	G2a-P15	G2a	5
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	G2a2b-S126	G2a	4
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I-M170	I*	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I1-M253	I1	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Neolithic_HG	Sweden	5'600	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'200	I2a1b1a-L1498	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Italy	5'200	G2a2a1b-L91	G2a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a-P297	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a-L49.1	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-Z2105	R1b1a	1
Middle_Neolithic	France	5'000	G2a-P15	G2a	20
Middle_Neolithic	France	5'000	I2a1-P37.2	I2	2
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	4'900	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	4'800	R1b1a2a2-Z2105	R1b1a	1
Middle_Neolithic	France	4'700	I2a1	I2	2
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'600	R1b-M343	R1b	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'600	R1b1a2-M269	R1b1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'400	R1a1a1-M417	R1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'300	R1b1a2a1a2-P312	R1b1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'100	R1a1-SRY10831.2	R1a	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2-L68	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2a2-L368	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2c2-PF3827	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	3'100	R1a1a1b1a2-S204	R1a	1
Late_Bronze_Age	Hungary	?	J2a1-S57	J2	1

And summary by Culture/Hg :

Culture	Total
Mesolithic_HG	1
I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	11
I2	9
R1a	1
R1b1	1
Early_Neolithic	38
C1	3
E1b1b	1
F*	6
G2a	19
H2	1
I*	1
I1	1
I2	4
R1b1	1
T	1
Neolithic_HG	1
I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	30
F*	1
G2a	21
I2	7
R*	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	7
R1b1a	7
Late_Neolithic	5
R1a	2
R1b	1
R1b1a	2
Early_Bronze_Age	4
I2	3
R1a	1
Late_Bronze_Age	1
J2	1
Grand Total	98

[Fluffy]

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms8152.html

The proportion of Europeans descending from Neolithic farmers ~10 thousand years ago (KYA) or Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers has been much debated. The male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) has been widely applied to this question, but unbiased estimates of diversity and time depth have been lacking. Here we show that European patrilineages underwent a recent continent-wide expansion. Resequencing of 3.7 Mb of MSY DNA in 334 males, comprising 17 European and Middle Eastern populations, defines a phylogeny containing 5,996 single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

Haplogroups E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70 contain long branches with deep-rooting nodes, whereas I1-M253, N1c-M178, R1a-M198 and R1b-M269 show much shallower genealogies.


Interesting paper............

Thanks Sile, very interesting.

[bicicleur]

and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):

Culture	Country	YBP	Hg	Simple hg	N
Mesolithic_HG	Luxembourg	8'000	I2a1b-L178	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'700	I2a-L460	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1a1a-L672	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1b-M423	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1b2a1-L147.2	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2c2-PF3827	I2	5
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'600	H2-L281	H2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Russia	7'600	R1b1-L278	R1b1	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Russia	7'300	R1a1-M459	R1a	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'300	F*-P135	F*	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'300	I2a1b1-L161.1	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'200	T1a-PF5604	T	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a-PF3147	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a-PF3185	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a1-PF3170	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'100	C1a2-V20/V184	C1	2
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'100	R1b1-M415	R1b1	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'000	G2a2a1-PF3155	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'000	E1b1b1a1b1a-V13	E1b1b	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'000	G2a-P15	G2a	5
Early_Neolithic	Spain	6'900	C1a2-V20	C1	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	6'400	I2a-L460	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	6'300	F-M89	F*	2
Early_Neolithic	Germany	6'200	G2a2b-S126	G2a	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'900	F*-P316	F*	1
Middle_Neolithic	Spain	5'800	H2/I2a1a1-L672	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Spain	5'800	I2a2a1-CTS9183	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'600	R*?-P224	R*	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	F-M89	F*	3
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	G2a-P15	G2a	5
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	G2a2b-S126	G2a	4
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I-M170	I*	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I1-M253	I1	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Neolithic_HG	Sweden	5'600	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'200	I2a1b1a-L1498	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Italy	5'200	G2a2a1b-L91	G2a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a-P297	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a-L49.1	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-Z2105	R1b1a	1
Middle_Neolithic	France	5'000	G2a-P15	G2a	20
Middle_Neolithic	France	5'000	I2a1-P37.2	I2	2
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	4'900	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	4'800	R1b1a2a2-Z2105	R1b1a	1
Middle_Neolithic	France	4'700	I2a1	I2	2
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'600	R1b-M343	R1b	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'600	R1b1a2-M269	R1b1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'400	R1a1a1-M417	R1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'300	R1b1a2a1a2-P312	R1b1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'100	R1a1-SRY10831.2	R1a	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2-L68	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2a2-L368	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2c2-PF3827	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	3'100	R1a1a1b1a2-S204	R1a	1
Late_Bronze_Age	Hungary	?	J2a1-S57	J2	1

where did they get the info re the sublcades of the Swedish Huntergatherers 7700 YBP ?
who tested for subclades ?
it is the first time I see these subclades assigned and I'm not sure it is correct

[Sile]

where did they get the info re the sublcades of the Swedish Huntergatherers 7700 YBP ?
who tested for subclades ?
it is the first time I see these subclades assigned and I'm not sure it is correct

testing of ancients always continues ...............sometimes for years...................the LBK_EN ones where found in 2012 , yet their ydna was discovered in late 2014

[Sile]

as per dienekes site, it seems that dating formula is slightly different

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2015...r-fathers.html

[Sile]

and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):

Culture	Country	YBP	Hg	Simple hg	N
Mesolithic_HG	Luxembourg	8'000	I2a1b-L178	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'700	I2a-L460	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1a1a-L672	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1b-M423	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2a1b2a1-L147.2	I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Sweden	7'700	I2c2-PF3827	I2	5
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'600	H2-L281	H2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Russia	7'600	R1b1-L278	R1b1	1
Hunter_Gatherer	Russia	7'300	R1a1-M459	R1a	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'300	F*-P135	F*	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'300	I2a1b1-L161.1	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'200	T1a-PF5604	T	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a-PF3147	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a-PF3185	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'100	G2a2a1-PF3170	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	7'100	C1a2-V20/V184	C1	2
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'100	R1b1-M415	R1b1	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	7'000	G2a2a1-PF3155	G2a	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'000	E1b1b1a1b1a-V13	E1b1b	1
Early_Neolithic	Spain	7'000	G2a-P15	G2a	5
Early_Neolithic	Spain	6'900	C1a2-V20	C1	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	6'400	I2a-L460	I2	1
Early_Neolithic	Germany	6'300	F-M89	F*	2
Early_Neolithic	Germany	6'200	G2a2b-S126	G2a	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'900	F*-P316	F*	1
Middle_Neolithic	Spain	5'800	H2/I2a1a1-L672	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Spain	5'800	I2a2a1-CTS9183	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'600	R*?-P224	R*	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	F-M89	F*	3
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	G2a-P15	G2a	5
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	G2a2b-S126	G2a	4
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I-M170	I*	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I1-M253	I1	1
Early_Neolithic	Hungary	5'600	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Neolithic_HG	Sweden	5'600	I2a1-P37.2	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Germany	5'200	I2a1b1a-L1498	I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	Italy	5'200	G2a2a1b-L91	G2a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a-P297	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a-L49.1	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	5'100	R1b1a2a2-Z2105	R1b1a	1
Middle_Neolithic	France	5'000	G2a-P15	G2a	20
Middle_Neolithic	France	5'000	I2a1-P37.2	I2	2
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	4'900	R1b1a2a2-CTS1078	R1b1a	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	Russia	4'800	R1b1a2a2-Z2105	R1b1a	1
Middle_Neolithic	France	4'700	I2a1	I2	2
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'600	R1b-M343	R1b	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'600	R1b1a2-M269	R1b1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'400	R1a1a1-M417	R1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'300	R1b1a2a1a2-P312	R1b1a	1
Late_Neolithic	Germany	4'100	R1a1-SRY10831.2	R1a	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2-L68	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2a2-L368	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	4'100	I2c2-PF3827	I2	1
Early_Bronze_Age	Germany	3'100	R1a1a1b1a2-S204	R1a	1
Late_Bronze_Age	Hungary	?	J2a1-S57	J2	1

And summary by Culture/Hg :

Culture	Total
Mesolithic_HG	1
I2	1
Hunter_Gatherer	11
I2	9
R1a	1
R1b1	1
Early_Neolithic	38
C1	3
E1b1b	1
F*	6
G2a	19
H2	1
I*	1
I1	1
I2	4
R1b1	1
T	1
Neolithic_HG	1
I2	1
Middle_Neolithic	30
F*	1
G2a	21
I2	7
R*	1
Steppe_Yamnaya	7
R1b1a	7
Late_Neolithic	5
R1a	2
R1b	1
R1b1a	2
Early_Bronze_Age	4
I2	3
R1a	1
Late_Bronze_Age	1
J2	1
Grand Total	98

my surprise, is still not many found in Italy

[bicicleur]

testing of ancients always continues ...............sometimes for years...................the LBK_EN ones where found in 2012 , yet their ydna was discovered in late 2014

I understand that, but that does not mean these data are correct.
I'd like to know who made these subclade assignments and how much coverage of the DNA they got. A single reading is not reliable if it is not confirmed by more readings.

[Tomenable]

I have recently made two maps of ancient Y-DNA from Europe.

First represents the Mesolithic-Neolithic period in Europe, second represents the Chalcolithic-Iron Age period in Central Europe only.

1. The distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe in period ca. 6000 BC - ca. 3000 BC, with a few exceptions after 3000 BC:

The exceptions (after 3000 BC) include e.g. two samples from Poland - they are dated at approximately 2800 BC and belong to Corded Ware culture, but I decided to include them because probably they represent assimilated Neolithic population in that new Corded culture.

Also in Russia near the border with Belarus (in Smolensk oblast and Pskov oblast) only one sample of R1a is dated at 4000 BC, while the other 3 samples (two R1a and one N1c) are dated at 2500 BC - these 3 belong to "Zhizhitskaya culture" (I have no idea what it was).

Each circle in the map represents one sample, but note that locations are not accurate (for example most of G2 samples from southern France are from just one cemetery - they were found in the Treilles cave in Saint-Jean-et-Saint-Paul commune of Aveyron department):

I1 oraz I = I1 and I (one of these 2 samples is I1 from Hungary dated at ca. 7500 years ago, the other one is only given as I):



=================================

Second map:

2. Y-DNA hg-s in Central Europe in period ca. 2800 BC - ca. 700 BC (11 out of 12 samples of I2a are from one cemetery - a cave near Dorste):

Legend (in English):

KCS = Corded Ware cultural horizon
KPP = Urnfield cultural horizon
BB = Bell Beaker cultural horizon
KŁ = Lusatian culture
KH = Hallstatt culture
KU = Unetice culture
Kyjatice culture
Mezocsat culture

I2 klad niepodany = I2 subclade not given (these are Unetice culture samples from Eulau)
J albo I = J or I (one of two CWC samples from Jagodno from ca. 2800 BC)

Such text = places of burials

In this map I included also the same two samples from Poland (dated at ca. 2800 BC) as in the first map:



The map shows burials from period ca. 2800 BC (Jagodno) to ca. 700 BC (Mitterkirchen).

[Tomenable]

What can be seen is a strong correlation between Bell Beakers (BB) and R1b, as well as between Corded Wares (KCS) and R1a.

By contrast Urnfield cultures are mixed, with R1a in the east and R1b in the west.

Bell Beaker cultures are thought to have originated in Iberia - so I wonder what is the source of R1b in those cultures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins

There have been numerous proposals by archaeologists as to the origins of the Bell Beaker culture, and debates continued on for decades. Several regions of origin have been postulated, notably the Iberian peninsula, the Netherlands and Central Europe.

Because we have Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs cave in northern Spain, but we also have R1b from Samara Oblast in Russia.

Could it be that eastern R1b first made its way to Iberia, and then expanded from Iberia with Bell Beakers ???

Or perhaps those cultures originated in the Netherlands or in Central Europe, and not in Iberia ???