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Thread: Egtved Girl-Bronze Age Find in Denmark

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    Country: Netherlands



    Is there actually a lot of these clothes left? Or anything, for that matter? What is interesting is that a colossal industry and trade network was build around the production and trade of - if this is the correct english word - broadcloth. Flemish cities, and others like Dutch Leiden, turned wealthy because of it. Hanze cities traded wool and cloth between them and the Stahlhof/Steelyard. Whenever you visit the splendor of these cities, be it Lubeck or Gent, you see the pride of the cities, all built on wool and the want for the cloth you see above.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcloth

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    Also, anyone that ever wore a tweed jacket knows that woolen clothing is warm, if not hot. That also could be the reason for the skirt length.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post


    Tacitus didn't think dowry given to women from a man was strange. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone does. He thought the ideas and symbolism beyond German dowry was strange.
    Thats what I thought too. Dowry should be a pretty Indo European thing, even Caucasians and some Semites do it (as far as I know). Heck it is still common in my culture. The parents of the groom buy the future bride jewelery such as gold chains, rings and other stuff. It stays at the hand of the bride for the case of "bad days" or when she becomes a widow. However when she really becomes a widow she is considered part of the family/community anyways and the parents of the groom are responsible for her and her children. But it's not only paid by the parents, during the wedding all guiest and the whole community gives the new pair, money and other jewelerys so that they can build up their new live on it.
    Last edited by Alan; 23-05-15 at 04:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    There are social norms in how one dresses, and social norms about the appropriate response to seeing an attractive person. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, if in the west we get to the point that men can't look for more than a second, or pay compliments to women, without being accused of sexual harassment, but I don't make the rules.
    There might be a thin line between a complement and harassment. Young handsome man can say much more and a girl will be flattered, when not handsome man will be slapped in the face, not mentioning that older gentleman could be accused of pedophilia doing the same. Just saying.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Thats what I thought too. Dowry should be a pretty Indo European thing, even Caucasians and some Semites do it. Heck it is still common in my culture. The parents of the groom buy the future bride jewelery such as gold chains, rings and other stuff. It stays at the hand of the bride for the case of "bad days" or when she becomes a widow. However when she really becomes a widow she is considered part of the family/community anyways and the parents of the groom are responsible for her and her children. But it's not only paid by the parents, during the wedding all guiest and the whole community gives the new pair, money and other jewelerys so that they can build up their new live on it.
    I think Dowry is very common around the world. I was under impression that in agricultural societies father of the bride was paying it, while in hunter-gatherer tribes father of the groom did. In Norther Europe it might have been mixed.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 23-05-15 at 05:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think Dowry is very common around the world. I was under impression that in agricultural societies father of the bright was paying it, while in hunter-gatherer tribes father of the groom did. In Norther Europe it might have been mixed.
    Downery, even though moslty, doesn't come exclusively from the groom family. The family of the bride also gives some to their daughter as well as the community because the bride is considered as part of the family and tribe of the groom from now on. However the bride price is exclusively payed by the family of the groom as compensation for the loss of a girl from their community.

    I would rather say the opposite. Neolithic cultures were more "gender equal" compared to H&G. Therefore it's more logical that agricultural societies the parents of the groom pay, because the woman has more value cpmpared to H&G.

    However in Hunters and Gatherer societies it would be the parents of the bride. Makes more sense. Even among some modern H&G tribes in Africa and even India as far to Afghanistan. the family of the bride pays money to the family of the groom.

    Another indication that bride price etc is more of an H&G thing is that Caucasians, most Afro_Asiatic tribes and Indo Europeans (all agricultural societies) have it.

    I even remember a documentation from few years ago about first farmers in Anatolia. In a scene they said the family of the groom payed domestic animals as bride price.
    Last edited by Alan; 23-05-15 at 16:07.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Downery, even though moslty, doesn't come exclusively from the groom family. The family of the bride also gives some to their daughter as well as the community because the bride is considered as part of the family and tribe of the groom from now on. However the bride price is exclusively payed by the family of the groom as compensation for the loss of a girl from their community.

    I would rather say the opposite. Neolithic cultures were more "gender equal" compared to H&G. Therefore it's more logical that agricultural societies the parents of the groom pay, because the woman has more value.
    I'm having a second thought about this. I think that in basic HG tribes there was no dowry system at all. It started in farmers and herders societies together with ownership of animals, land and other goods. And together with arranged marriages.

    However in Hunters and Gatherer societies it would be the parents of the bride. Makes more sense. Even among some modern H&G tribes in Africa and even India as far to Afghanistan. the family of the bride pays money to the family of the groom.

    Another indication that bride price etc is more of an H&G thing is that Caucasians, most Afro_Asiatic tribes and Indo Europeans (all agricultural societies) have it.

    I even remember a documentation from few years ago about first farmers in Anatolia. In a scene they said the family of the groom payed domestic animals for the bride.
    There is one thing to consider, maybe. Times of war create shortage of men, therefore making a man more "pricey" than a woman. In times of peace there are more men than women due to high mortality during pregnancy and birth. Well at least it used to be like this till modern times. Making a woman more desirable than a man. I wonder if peaceful or violent history of a country or a region set these dowry traditions in place?

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    LeBrok:I'm having a second thought about this. I think that in basic HG tribes there was no dowry system at all. It started in farmers and herders societies together with ownership of animals, land and other goods. And together with arranged marriages.
    I would tend to agree. What "property" does a H/G culture really have? In trying to think of examples, the Plains Indians came to mind, where the man would give some horses to the bride's father, so a "bride price" of a type, but they weren't really hunter-gatherers, certainly not after the arrival of the Europeans.

    I wasn't sure, so I looked it up. :) If this article is still valid, things are a little more complicated but it still isn't the norm.

    Attachment 7260
    https://books.google.com/books?id=CD...ieties&f=false

    Bride service:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_service

    As the article points out, an example can be found in the Bible, although that is in the context of a pastoral society, where Jacob has to work for Laban for 14 years before he can marry Rachel.

    "Bride wealth" seems to be a related term in that it still flows to the bride's family, but in this case it is usually wealth transferred from the groom's family to the wife's family.

    So, perhaps the "dowry" is what actually became popular in agricultural societies. It seems to have been known from the days of Babylon.

    According to this article, one of the leading anthropologists studying these practices believes that it developed as a way of allowing for female inheritance of parental property, and furthermore he claims to see a correlation with "plough" agriculture versus "hoe" agriculture, with the practice becoming more prevalent as farming became more sophisticated and productive.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry

    " Goody notes that the sexual division of labour varies in intensive plough agriculture and extensive shifting horticulture. In sparsely populated regions where shifting cultivation takes place, most of the work is done by women. These are the societies that give brideprice. Boserup further associates shifting horticulture with the practice of polygamy, and hence bridewealth is paid as a compensation to her family for the loss of her labour. In plough agriculture farming is largely men's work; this is where dowry is given.[10] In contrast, plough agriculture is associated with private property and marriage tends to be monogamous, to keep the property within the nuclear family. Close family are the preferred marriage partners so as to keep property within the group.[11]"


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is one thing to consider, maybe. Times of war create shortage of men, therefore making a man more "pricey" than a woman. In times of peace there are more men than women due to high mortality during pregnancy and birth. Well at least it used to be like this till modern times. Making a woman more desirable than a man. I wonder if peaceful or violent history of a country or a region set these dowry traditions in place?
    Hmm to be honest I doubt this. And I even think it's exactly the opposite. I don't remember a time when there was peace in my region.

    I think war is one of the main reasons why bride prices get high. Remember you need offsprings to keep up with war. For that you only need allot of women but only one man.

    However what could effect this tradition and change it to paying for the groom, could indead be a shortage of men. I don't think surplus of females or war determines this but shortage of men might be a reason.

    I remember back when I asked my father about this stuff he told me, back at that time females were happy if they could get a husband, because there was some shortage compared to women. However it would still be tradition that the groom parents pay dowry for the female.

    The only way you could tell that there was shortage of men, was when the parents of my father didn't had to pay bride price. But in no way would the family of my father asked for dowry for their son that is simply completely against the tradition.

    The thing that the bride from now on belongs to the grooms community, that is true but doesn't mean the bride lost contact to her own community. Marriage between two different communities was and is still often a way to build up alliances/relationship between two communities. It's like not only two persons but two whole families/comunities marry.
    Last edited by Alan; 24-05-15 at 01:35.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps it all started as a wealth transfer from parents to kids, to give them a kick-start in life. It was valid in HGs, though with much limited form, because they never owned much. Later and in more recent times, in patriarchal system of inheritance, groom was bringing land into equation, and family of bride chipped in other possessions, like livestock and money. I think the base of this custom is to secure new family in making.
    Through times it got twisted in various ways depending on supply and demand of potential grooms and brides, extended family benefiting, marriage contracts between families when kids were in very young age, etc, and other derivative traditions.
    At the end of a day, once a tradition is in place, people go with the flow and don't ask questions.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 24-05-15 at 01:28.

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