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Thread: DNA of Iberians from Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/spaniards-do...ish-admixture/

    iberians have a lot of north-african markers............
    No, not too much (except among Canarian islanders and to a lesser extent some areas of western Iberia), and certainly quite less than certain other European groups have of Middle Eastern markers. And the link you posted is by that blogger "Razib", who is trying to use that sloppy Botigue et al paper for his agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    You like to answer my posts because you probably have no job and get bored all day. If you were so knowledgeable you would have ignored me since you think I am so "wrong." But it's clear to me you are not that knowledgeable. You also don't debate; you split hairs and never offer any knowledge that adds to our understanding. You just say "this is the facts, etc . . . " This is why many here ignore you. I also asked you what ethnic background and what are your credentials but you never answer. You seem like some kind of an expert but you are not fooling me.
    Funny, because it is you who never ignores me and tries to come back with replies, but only to once again usually fail to prove your dubious claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    OK, but if you go back, way back, it did originate somewhere either in Northern Germany, Denmark, or Southern Scandinavia. This is the original homeland of all Germanic peoples. Are you saying the Goths were not Germanic??
    The fact that they spoke a Germanic language does not mean that they must have originated in Scandinavia. Germanic peoples were found elsewhere too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    That's right: "so far." We need to wait and see what the future brings. And yes i read Peter Heather. I don't care if you doubt it. Jordanes and other writers claimed that Goths came from Scandinavia. Since they spoke an Eastern Germanic language and their culture was Germanic, then it's safe to assume they came from the Germanic homeland, i.e., Scandinavia.
    Well, we have to go by what is currently available. If some day someone finds evidence for earlier Gothic culture in Scandinavia than anywhere else then the record will be changed. But so far the earliest evidence does not point toward Scandinavia.

    If you really had read Heather then you would not have been surprised when I told you about the Goths likely originating in Poland, you would already have known about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    No, not too much (except among Canarian islanders and to a lesser extent some areas of western Iberia), and certainly quite less than certain other European groups have of Middle Eastern markers. And the link you posted is by that blogger "Razib", who is trying to use that sloppy Botigue et al paper for his agenda.
    I agree razib is a bit "sloppy" , but the 35 comments where interesting with this link below is a good read if you view it all

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree razib is a bit "sloppy" , but the 35 comments where interesting with this link below is a good read if you view it all

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626
    Interesting that they actually estimated the date of arrival of that L marker, and found it very old. Also, interestingly enough it was found in a western part of Iberia. For some reason the western parts of the peninsula seem to have attracted the attention of ancient migrants/farmers who carried African markers more than the eastern parts.

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    You have not surprised at all. I read Heather's book 25 years ago. I knew the Wielbark Culture was in Poland but I agreed that the Goths MUST HAVE originated in Scandinavia. That's all. What surprised me is your stubborn belief that they did not originate there. What you want to believe is OK by me but just don't go around slandering people whom you don't agree with. You also never answer my question about what exactly you have read as you come across as being strange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    You have not surprised at all. I read Heather's book 25 years ago. I knew the Wielbark Culture was in Poland but I agreed that the Goths MUST HAVE originated in Scandinavia. That's all. What surprised me is your stubborn belief that they did not originate there. What you want to believe is OK by me but just don't go around slandering people whom you don't agree with. You also never answer my question about what exactly you have read as you come across as being strange.
    Further evidence that you in fact have not read Heather's book: it was first published in 1996, not 25 years ago. Thanks for proving once again that it is in fact you who is the "strange" one around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Further evidence that you in fact have not read Heather's book: it was first published in 1996, not 25 years ago. Thanks for proving once again that it is in fact you who is the "strange" one around here.
    I did read it in the 1990's. Actually I read it while doing my research on the Goths during the 1990's while I was getting my masters in history. So I got the date wrong. Big deal. It was a long time ago.

    The one who give further evidence of strangeness is you: OK, I guess you read Heather's book but why don't you tell us all about how much your read, your ethnicity, and education? I am guessing you have a BA??? You don't want to give us the information because you want no one to know. Right? I bet you don't even have a job and stay all day bored putting your two cents to every website that deals with genetics. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/spaniards-do...ish-admixture/

    iberians have a lot of north-african markers............but where these prior moor or berber
    No: Iberians in general have small amounts of Berber markers. But if you look at certain regions of Spain and Portugal you will find significant amounts. For example, SW Iberia, which will be southern Portugal and parts of western Andalusia have significant amounts of Berber DNA. This is because the Berbers settled there in large numbers. Although most were expelled or killed many converted. This also happened in SE Spain. I read somewhere that 8% is the average Berber DNA in Iberia, but that it varies all over the peninsula. For example, it's almost 0% in the north but in the south it can reach as high as 20%. But if you add Jewish DNA it becomes even higher. Combined DNA of Berber and Jews can be between 10-20% in general over the Spanish population (don't know in Portugal. But it is probably higher).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Funny, because it is you who never ignores me and tries to come back with replies, but only to once again usually fail to prove your dubious claims.
    Yes you are right, it is funny I answer your posts. You know what? I will stop answering them.

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    Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
    Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

    Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
    So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
    Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

    Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
    So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
    Gosh, does it correlate with good looks and talent then? Although to be honest I don't find Javier Bardem very good looking...extremely talented, yes, handsome, no. No question about the other two, though.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    I did read it in the 1990's. Actually I read it while doing my research on the Goths during the 1990's while I was getting my masters in history. So I got the date wrong. Big deal. It was a long time ago.

    The one who give further evidence of strangeness is you: OK, I guess you read Heather's book but why don't you tell us all about how much your read, your ethnicity, and education? I am guessing you have a BA??? You don't want to give us the information because you want no one to know. Right? I bet you don't even have a job and stay all day bored putting your two cents to every website that deals with genetics. Right?
    Why do you keep asking such strange personal questions? And why do you think it has any bearing on what is being talked about in any of these threads? Bottom line: you make a lot of strange claims which more often than not you can't back up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
    Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

    Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
    So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
    Canarian or Berber or not, Javier Bardem looks a lot like American actor Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I suppose you will also claim to discover "Berber genes" in the fellow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
    Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

    Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
    So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
    I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close

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    Sorry. This Chinese "new" school I am working at has a lot of internet problems and makes it difficult to post.

    Here are the pictures of Antonio Banderas and Javier Bardem. I will also add Pedro Almodovar and Rafael Nadal. I am not saying they are pure Berbers or Jews. OK? What I am saying is they reveal their Berber/Jewish ancestry. Many Berbers and even more Jews converted during the Reconquista. These persons reveal their non-European background. They all either come from Andalusia or their ancestors originated there. Almodovar even has an Arabic surname but he comes from Castile-La Mancha. Nadal is from the Balearic Islands. But since most Spaniards have moved extensively all over Spain, I will bet money they all hailed from Andalusia or regions next to it.

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    I guess it does not want to copy more pictures. Here is Pedro;he clearly shows characteristics of Berbers or Arabs, even Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close
    Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.
    I've spent many years living in the Netherlands, Spain, Italy where they have large North African immigration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.
    I've spent several years in the Netherlands, Italy and Spain. They have large North African population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Sorry. This Chinese "new" school I am working at has a lot of internet problems and makes it difficult to post.

    Here are the pictures of Antonio Banderas and Javier Bardem. I will also add Pedro Almodovar and Rafael Nadal. I am not saying they are pure Berbers or Jews. OK? What I am saying is they reveal their Berber/Jewish ancestry. Many Berbers and even more Jews converted during the Reconquista. These persons reveal their non-European background. They all either come from Andalusia or their ancestors originated there. Almodovar even has an Arabic surname but he comes from Castile-La Mancha. Nadal is from the Balearic Islands. But since most Spaniards have moved extensively all over Spain, I will bet money they all hailed from Andalusia or regions next to it.
    The major flaw with your theory here is that you can find people with such features in places where there hardly were any Jews or Berbers.

    Plus you have already been informed that the number of Berbers and Jews in Iberia was actually comparatively small. Jews, for example, only made up about 1-2% of the population. Even if all of them had been converted to Christianity and assimilated, they would hardly have had much of an influence on the host population.

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    Any photos of Berbers or Sephardim who look like Penelope or Banderas are welcome (general mediterranean look doesn't count)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    I've spent several years in the Netherlands, Italy and Spain. They have large North African population.
    I see North Africans on daily basis and the Cruz sisters can blend among them easily. Nadal is too robust and look typical Iberian to me.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think there's a lot of generalizing going on and a lot of confusion of terms. The Berbers of North Africa are those North Africans who have retained at least a partial use of the Berber language and some degree of their tribal structure and their ancient culture. They are usually pretty endogamous. The level of SSA among them varies depending on the tribe and the country. Some, like the Mozabites, have quite a bit.


    Other groups look like they have a lot less, and some among them just look southern European:



    Likewise there are a lot of North Africans who don't primarily identify as Berbers. They also vary in terms of SSA admixture, with some urban, upper class people not showing a lot of SSA but most of them showing what is close to what the studies say, which is about 20-25% SSA ancestry.

    The people who have gone to Europe recently do seem to have at least that amount of SSA ancestry. On the other hand, the ones who have 3-5% would probably go unnoticed. There are a lot of white South Americans with that amount of SSA.

    All this commentary about what Berbers looked like (i.e.how much SSA they had, which seems so important to people) in the early Middle Ages when some of them went to Europe is just speculation. From contemporary depictions, it seems that some predominantly SSA people were part of the forces, and undoubtedly some mixed people also participated. Many probably looked pretty similar to southern Europeans. We just don't know. Nobody was around to do a scientific study.

    This stuff about famous Spanish actors is just silly. They look Mediterranean, which should hardly be a surprise, and that goes for Penelope Cruz too. And yes, there are Sephardic Jews who look a bit like her, but it's not because she looks like a Sephardic Jew, because she doesn't; it's because Sephardic (and North African) Jews can sometimes look pretty generically southern European.



    Probably this is a more common look, however.


    Sigfrido:I see North Africans on daily basis and the Cruz sisters can blend among them easily
    .

    Most North African women in Europe don't look like Penelope Cruz at all, and not just because she's a beautiful actress. There are consequences here for deliberately provocative comments.
    Last edited by Angela; 25-09-15 at 00:06.

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