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Thread: DNA of Iberians from Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Nadal is too robust and look typical Iberian to me.
    Nadal doesn't even look much like his very own relatives, who look way more like average Iberians than he does:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    All this commentary about what Berbers looked like (i.e.how much SSA they had, which seems so important to people) in the early Middle Ages when some of them went to Europe is just speculation. From contemporary depictions, it seems that some predominantly SSA people were part of the forces, and undoubtedly some mixed people also participated. Many probably looked pretty similar to southern Europeans. We just don't know. Nobody was around to do a scientific study.
    Do we need a scientific study to plainly see how they were portrayed by others and by themselves? The evidence seems pretty clear: the sub-Saharan types among them were minimal. A look at contemporary sources by people who were in contact with them shows this pretty well. Take a look at the many drawings representing them in the "Cantigas" manuscript of king Alfonso the Wise, or the Byzantine chronicle of John Skylitzes. In this last one we have drawings representing Byzantines, Greeks and/or Italians in confrontation with various Muslim forces, specially from Fatimid North Africa, and once again the only way of telling them apart from one another is by the garbs they wear. Obviously the Byzantine scribes who illuminated the chronicle did not see the Muslims of the time as being some sort of exotic strange people very physically different from them, or Greeks, or Italians.

    We also have coins and busts depicting Berbers from Roman times, when some of them also went to Europe (some of them even made it all the way up to Britain via the Roman armies.) A similar pattern repeats itself in these earlier times: almost all the depictions show Caucasian people.

    Even older are the depictions by the Egyptians (who were North Africans themselves.) Same pattern: almost all the depictions of themselves and their Libyan neighbors show Caucasoid types. When they painted Nubians or Ethiopians, on the other hand, we usually see Negroid or Negroid-Caucasoid mixed types.

    Contrary to what some people (specially those with Afrocentric agendas) want to argue, these were not some sort of abstract "conventions". When these ancient and medieval artists wanted to portray exotic (from their point of view) looking people, they very easily did so. We have examples of Negroid types in Middle Eastern, North African and European ancient and medieval art. So they were not ignorant of what these peoples looked like, but nevertheless they only rarely portray them. The reason should be obvious: to them these peoples were an exotic foreign element, not something they would commonly see around them every day. When they portray their own people, on the other hand, they paint what we see: Caucasian types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The fact that they spoke a Germanic language does not mean that they must have originated in Scandinavia. Germanic peoples were found elsewhere too.
    Afro-Americans speak a Germanic language (AAVE - Afro-American Vernacular English), yet they clearly did not originate in Scandinavia.

    Ashkenazi Jews also spoke a Germanic language - Yiddish - but they also did not originate in Scandinavia just like Afro-Americans didn't.

    Such and other similar groups prove that you can speak a Germanic language without having any Scandinavian roots, indeed.

    Though Afro-Americans might actually have some Scandinavian admixture. They are 15% - 20% European, part of it is Scandinavian.

    From another forum I know a Black Afro-American guy with typically Scandinavian Y-DNA haplogroup I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Any photos of Berbers or Sephardim who look like Penelope or Banderas are welcome (general mediterranean look doesn't count)
    What do you want? exact or similar pictures of Penelope Cruz or Antonio Banderas? It seems kind of impossible doesn't it? How many Berbers or Jews look like movie stars unless they are heavily mixed with Europeans?
    Last edited by Johannes; 25-09-15 at 21:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Do we need a scientific study to plainly see how they were portrayed by others and by themselves? The evidence seems pretty clear: the sub-Saharan types among them were minimal. A look at contemporary sources by people who were in contact with them shows this pretty well. Take a look at the many drawings representing them in the "Cantigas" manuscript of king Alfonso the Wise, or the Byzantine chronicle of John Skylitzes. In this last one we have drawings representing Byzantines, Greeks and/or Italians in confrontation with various Muslim forces, specially from Fatimid North Africa, and once again the only way of telling them apart from one another is by the garbs they wear. Obviously the Byzantine scribes who illuminated the chronicle did not see the Muslims of the time as being some sort of exotic strange people very physically different from them, or Greeks, or Italians.

    We also have coins and busts depicting Berbers from Roman times, when some of them also went to Europe (some of them even made it all the way up to Britain via the Roman armies.) A similar pattern repeats itself in these earlier times: almost all the depictions show Caucasian people.

    Even older are the depictions by the Egyptians (who were North Africans themselves.) Same pattern: almost all the depictions of themselves and their Libyan neighbors show Caucasoid types. When they painted Nubians or Ethiopians, on the other hand, we usually see Negroid or Negroid-Caucasoid mixed types.

    Contrary to what some people (specially those with Afrocentric agendas) want to argue, these were not some sort of abstract "conventions". When these ancient and medieval artists wanted to portray exotic (from their point of view) looking people, they very easily did so. We have examples of Negroid types in Middle Eastern, North African and European ancient and medieval art. So they were not ignorant of what these peoples looked like, but nevertheless they only rarely portray them. The reason should be obvious: to them these peoples were an exotic foreign element, not something they would commonly see around them every day. When they portray their own people, on the other hand, they paint what we see: Caucasian types.
    So what? Why do you keep harping about Arabs and Berbers being similar to Europeans??? Caucasian people range from brown to near white. Indians and Pakistanis are very dark, --some even black! -- yet they are considered "Caucasians." In Spain the Moors were very dark and that is why they were named as such. You keep trying to convince us of something that cannot be convinced. Stop using your "paint" analogy and use some common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The major flaw with your theory here is that you can find people with such features in places where there hardly were any Jews or Berbers.

    Plus you have already been informed that the number of Berbers and Jews in Iberia was actually comparatively small. Jews, for example, only made up about 1-2% of the population. Even if all of them had been converted to Christianity and assimilated, they would hardly have had much of an influence on the host population.
    Where do you get your figures? If you read Fletcher he claimed that about 1 million North Africans/Middle Eastern people immigrated into Andalusia from 9th to 12th centuries. Andalusia or SW Iberia is about the size of England (minus Wales). There were about 4-5 millions persons in the whole peninsula up to about the 12th century. If we admit 2-3 million people living in southern Iberia or Andalusia it will make about 20-30% or so non-Europeans! Of course the majority were expelled, killed, or left on their own free will. But 1-2% is ridiculous!!

    I am not exactly sure about Jewish population figures but they must have been somewhat significant in Andalusia. I will guess 10% before expulsion? So if we take both the Berber and Jewish figures they will certainly be higher that 1-2%!!
    Last edited by Johannes; 25-09-15 at 22:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Nadal doesn't even look much like his very own relatives, who look way more like average Iberians than he does:

    Which proves he is mixed. Don't get fooled by women dyeing their hair or wear make up to make themselves look "better or different."

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    While I don't doubt that Nadal could possibly have some distant Jewish or Berber ancestry, I'm pretty sure that if he didn't spend God knows how many hours a day playing tennis under the sun, he would look exactly like his dad, who couldn't look more typically Greek, Spanish or Italian (Greek, if I had to pick). Let's keep in mind that even Federer the Swiss always looks somewhat "dark", due to all that sun exposure. I honestly don't see any feature on Nadal, or on his parents, that screams Jewish or Berber, although, as others have pointed out, many Jews and many "pure" Berbers are very much interchangeable with regular Southern Europeans. Just to use some examples of people whose pictures have been posted on this thread, if Emanuelle Chriqui (Morrocan Jew) was Spanish and if Penelope Cruz was Jewish (think Natalie Portman), no one would raise an eyebrow. Although Penelope Cruz has more of that distinct "Gabriela Sabatini" Italianesque/Argentinesque look, with the long nose and the big, expressive eyes. My favorite type, if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    What do you want? exact or similar pictures of Penelope Cruz or Antonio Banderas? It seems kind of impossible doesn't it? How many Berbers or Jews look like movie starts unless they are heavily mixed with Europeans?
    Photos of people with similar facial architecture, if you please


    For example average Moroccan Berber I can recognize 1000 out of 1000. They have very spcific features. Same goes for Kabyl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Gosh, does it correlate with good looks and talent then? Although to be honest I don't find Javier Bardem very good looking...extremely talented, yes, handsome, no. No question about the other two, though.
    Angela: it has nothing to do with looks or with talent. Jewish producers in Hollywood only want to portray Spaniards as "exotic", not what they really are. It's good for business. It sells pictures. Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas represent the "Moorish look" and that's why they are sold as a commodity. I personally don't think they are very talented. They only sell their faces. Javier Bardem is more talented but not good looking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Afro-Americans speak a Germanic language (AAVE - Afro-American Vernacular English), yet they clearly did not originate in Scandinavia.

    Ashkenazi Jews also spoke a Germanic language - Yiddish - but they also did not originate in Scandinavia just like Afro-Americans didn't.

    Such and other similar groups prove that you can speak a Germanic language without having any Scandinavian roots, indeed.

    Though Afro-Americans might actually have some Scandinavian admixture. They are 15% - 20% European, part of it is Scandinavian.

    From another forum I know a Black Afro-American guy with typically Scandinavian Y-DNA haplogroup I1.
    I would guess that the majority of Euro DNA among black Americans would be British, as that is the European group that they have been in contact with for the longest time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    So what? Why do you keep harping about Arabs and Berbers being similar to Europeans??? Caucasian people range from brown to near white. Indians and Pakistanis are very dark, --some even black! -- yet they are considered "Caucasians." In Spain the Moors were very dark and that is why they were named as such. You keep trying to convince us of something that cannot be convinced. Stop using your "paint" analogy and use some common sense.
    First of all, it is much more than just skin tones, which as you seem to be aware of it can be deceiving when it comes to race, plus the ancient and medieval pictorial evidence does not show what you claim. Just take a look at the "Cantigas" or the "Book of Games" of Alfonso X. Like 90% of the loads of "Moors" depicted in those manuscripts do not look "dark" at all, let alone "very dark". King Alfonso's court was very much in contact with the "Moors" (diplomatic envoys, prisoners of war, translators, etc.) so his scribes knew very well what they looked like. I find it very funny that you want to presume to know better than people who were actually there and therefore knew much better than you how things were like back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Where do you get your figures? If you read Fletcher he claimed that about 1 million North Africans/Middle Eastern people immigrated into Andalusia from 9th to 12th centuries. Andalusia or SW Iberia is about the size of England (minus Wales). There were about 4-5 millions persons in the whole peninsula up to about the 12th century. If we admit 2-3 million people living in southern Iberia or Andalusia it will make about 20-30% or so non-Europeans! Of course the majority were expelled, killed, or left on their own free will. But 1-2% is ridiculous!!

    I am not exactly sure about Jewish population figures but they must have been somewhat significant in Andalusia. I will guess 10% before expulsion? So if we take both the Berber and Jewish figures they will certainly be higher that 1-2%!!
    I already showed you the figures for the Berbers & Arabs, they were probably not even 5% of the population of Iberia. The Jews were even less. Regarding their percentage, see here, where I posted estimates by several scholars:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post442216

    So anywhere around 1-2%, give or take a bit. Hardly much to get excited about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Which proves he is mixed. Don't get fooled by women dyeing their hair or wear make up to make themselves look "better or different."
    Hardly, but it proves what we can see in plenty of other families from around the world: sometimes people within one family do not look much alike. Just look at Victoria Beckham and her parents:



    And it has little to do with hair color, but more with facial traits. Nadal looks pretty different than his relatives. He looks sort of like the "oddball" in the family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Angela: it has nothing to do with looks or with talent. Jewish producers in Hollywood only want to portray Spaniards as "exotic", not what they really are. It's good for business. It sells pictures. Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas represent the "Moorish look" and that's why they are sold as a commodity. I personally don't think they are very talented. They only sell their faces. Javier Bardem is more talented but not good looking.
    I'm afraid you totally misunderstood the "meaning" of my comment.

    He hasn't aged very well, but I personally think Antonio Banderas in his prime was extremely attractive. Some of the reviews of his movie with Salma Hayek, "Desperado", basically said it was difficult to objectively critique the movie because the sheer beauty of those two actors was too distracting.

    However, what I individually think, or you individually think, is not terribly relevant to your point.

    Madison Avenue and Hollywood are in the sales business: products and movies. I've never worked in Hollywood, but I have worked on Madison Avenue, and I assure you that before an actor or actress is chosen for an ad they test market the h*** out of them. Hollywood does even more of it because more money is on the line. Leading ladies and leading men are chosen because people score them highly in "attractiveness". Now, in terms of "type of looks", there are certain stereotypes about what people look like in certain countries, stereotypes based on those people's experience, or sometimes lack of very much experience. Those stereotypes are shared by both the consumers of media and the creators of it. There you have a point. So, Americans think all Spaniards look like Hispanics, and all Italians look like southern Italians.

    There's nothing nefarious about it even if it's incorrect. I haven't particularly liked being told over and over again here in the U.S. that I don't look Italian, when I look very typical of my area in Italy, but I just chalk it down to lack of experience. I don't think it's a conspiracy. Please peddle your Jewish conspiracy theories elsewhere. If you post them here again you'll get another infraction, or I might even do worse.

    What you and your Italian counterparts also fail to understand is that Americans and people around the world think that this type, a "Mediterranean" type, if you will (among others), is attractive. The fact that you don't want your country of ancestry to be represented by people of brunette coloring, or Mediterranean cast of features, who are, by the way, the majority, is your problem, not that of Hollywood or Madison Avenue or anyone else. (You know, this stuff only works with people who have never set foot in these countries; I spent, among other trips, a whole semester in Barcelona. Lots of nice looking, charming guys, but never once did I think I was in Dublin.)

    Btw, Penelope Cruz was celebrated in Spain before she was ever celebrated in America. You should read up on Spanish film. It's true, however, that I don't think she's ever been as good in American films as she has been in Spanish films, with the exception of Vicky Cristina Barcelona and perhaps Nine. (For comparison, watch "Volver". I adored the movie and her in it. In fact, I bought it. (Sophia Loren had the same problem. American directors don't know what to do with women like that...they don't quite seem to realize that women can be earthy, sexy, maternal, intelligent and funny all at the same time.)



    Her eyes are just pools of sorrow in moments like this.

    Some more Spanish actors:



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    As far as the Jews, yes 2-3% sounds about right, but then again the population doubled between the 8th and 13th centuries. So they might have increased to 4-5% of the Iberian population. As far as the Arabs, they did not even constitute 1% of 1%. They were basically 0%. And no wonder; who would travel 4,000 miles to Iberia from the Middle East! However, the Berbers were much more numerous. As far as I recall Richard Fetcher claimed that about 1 million Muslims (mostly Berbers) entered Al Andalus from 8th to 12th centuries. Now this is not just Andalusia but includes half of Portugal, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha, Murcia, Valencia, and southern Aragon. However, all these territories were reconquered by the end of the 12th and early 13th centuries. So that gives around 500 years of Berber presence in Iberia. So 5% is way to low. Where is your source for this 5%? It seems more like 10-20%. I know Fletcher wrote his book in 1993 and might be outdated but if you have some other author who can claim 5% I will be interested to see.

    The fallacy of your arguments about percentages of Jews and Berbers/Arabs is that you confuse the whole with the part (or you ignore it). If you are talking about the whole of the population of Iberia, then yes, the Jews did constitute a non significant figure. But if you want to know about places were they lived, such as, Granada, Almeria, Toledo, Lisbon, and such, then they would have impacted the population in those cities more than the whole. The same can be said of the Berbers who lived in what is now southern Portugal, SW Andalusia, Granada, Almeria, and Valencia. Now if the Berbers who converted to Christianity mixed with the native population they would have impacted the people in those regions in a much larger manner.

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    "Please peddle your Jewish conspiracy theories elsewhere. If you post them here again you'll get another infraction, or I might even do worse."

    What are you talking about??? Sometimes I wonder were you get your "conspiracies theories" from. It's a known fact that Jews run Hollywood. Jews know that. What? you don't know it? if you are that ignorant about this then you should educate yourself by google-in and find out. It's irritating to read from you that every time I or someone says something about Jews you get all defensive or bossy or worse -- dictatorial. It's like you were brainwashed or have some agenda that you want to protect. You were hired to be a moderator, not a tyrant. Last time I checked we live in a free society where free speech is allowed. If what I say about the Jews is true and upsets you then keep it to yourself and not try to slander me. I never insulted or said anything bad about the Jews in Hollywood. When you make such arrogant comments like the ones you post you only stifle the intelligence of the forum.

    BTW -- I have seen all the movies by Penelope Cruz and she is not a great actress. Yes she does better in the Spanish versions but don't try to pretend you know more than others. It's all about perception and yours is not more valuable than others.

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    [QUOTE=Drac II;467571]I would guess that the majority of Euro DNA among black Americans iwould be British, as that is the European group that they have been in contact with for the longest time.[/QUOTE



    The impression is that Irish were more involved in mixing with blacks. Half of Black last names have an Irish origin. The mix was voluntary since the Irish were pushed by Brits to live either in black neighborhoods or next to them.I would say that English were an egalitarian ethnicity in America so the English black mixtures were forced, compared to Irish Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close
    Oh then you must be blind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Oh then you must be blind.
    Or you have a distorted vision due to wishful thinking

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    In 2008 I was in Tunisia and I could see Berbers, including these living in Chenini:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenini

    But I don't remember seeing a clone of Penelope Cruz, so I can't say who is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    "Please peddle your Jewish conspiracy theories elsewhere. If you post them here again you'll get another infraction, or I might even do worse."

    What are you talking about??? Sometimes I wonder were you get your "conspiracies theories" from. It's a known fact that Jews run Hollywood. Jews know that. What? you don't know it? if you are that ignorant about this then you should educate yourself by google-in and find out. It's irritating to read from you that every time I or someone says something about Jews you get all defensive or bossy or worse -- dictatorial. It's like you were brainwashed or have some agenda that you want to protect. You were hired to be a moderator, not a tyrant. Last time I checked we live in a free society where free speech is allowed. If what I say about the Jews is true and upsets you then keep it to yourself and not try to slander me. I never insulted or said anything bad about the Jews in Hollywood. When you make such arrogant comments like the ones you post you only stifle the intelligence of the forum.

    BTW -- I have seen all the movies by Penelope Cruz and she is not a great actress. Yes she does better in the Spanish versions but don't try to pretend you know more than others. It's all about perception and yours is not more valuable than others.
    Yes, there are a lot of Jewish people involved in the entertainment industry. That's completely different from saying there's some sort of Jewish conspiracy to make Spaniards or Italians look "dark". That's idiotic anti-Semitic racism and doesn't have any place on a genetics and history and archaeology forum. Do you want to post the Protocols of Zion next?

    Free speech is a right guaranteed in the U.S. by the First Amendment that protects people from government intrusion or control over speech. It has nothing to do with the rules that might apply on a private website.

    You're of course entitled to your opinion of anyone's acting skills; you're not entitled to distort the facts to imply that Penelope Cruz is a creature of Hollywood when in fact she had a prominent and valued place in Spanish film long before Hollywood ever heard of her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Hardly, but it proves what we can see in plenty of other families from around the world: sometimes people within one family do not look much alike. Just look at Victoria Beckham and her parents:



    And it has little to do with hair color, but more with facial traits. Nadal looks pretty different than his relatives. He looks sort of like the "oddball" in the family.
    father and daughter look berber , ie, berber facial traits ...........mother pure british
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is why I try so hard to avoid these kinds of discussions. When looking at people to see correspondences and differences between different ethnic groups, pigmentation is one of the least informative measures. Bleaching your hair doesn't change your features from Mediterranean to British and constantly sporting a spray tan doesn't turn a British looking woman Mediterranean.

    Forget it. It's a lost cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    As far as the Jews, yes 2-3% sounds about right, but then again the population doubled between the 8th and 13th centuries. So they might have increased to 4-5% of the Iberian population. As far as the Arabs, they did not even constitute 1% of 1%. They were basically 0%. And no wonder; who would travel 4,000 miles to Iberia from the Middle East! However, the Berbers were much more numerous. As far as I recall Richard Fetcher claimed that about 1 million Muslims (mostly Berbers) entered Al Andalus from 8th to 12th centuries. Now this is not just Andalusia but includes half of Portugal, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha, Murcia, Valencia, and southern Aragon. However, all these territories were reconquered by the end of the 12th and early 13th centuries. So that gives around 500 years of Berber presence in Iberia. So 5% is way to low. Where is your source for this 5%? It seems more like 10-20%. I know Fletcher wrote his book in 1993 and might be outdated but if you have some other author who can claim 5% I will be interested to see.

    The fallacy of your arguments about percentages of Jews and Berbers/Arabs is that you confuse the whole with the part (or you ignore it). If you are talking about the whole of the population of Iberia, then yes, the Jews did constitute a non significant figure. But if you want to know about places were they lived, such as, Granada, Almeria, Toledo, Lisbon, and such, then they would have impacted the population in those cities more than the whole. The same can be said of the Berbers who lived in what is now southern Portugal, SW Andalusia, Granada, Almeria, and Valencia. Now if the Berbers who converted to Christianity mixed with the native population they would have impacted the people in those regions in a much larger manner.
    The probably less than 5% estimate for Berbers & Arabs in Iberia (all of it) was already discussed here:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post462142

    The calculation is from a book on Mozarabs by Richard Hitchcock, an English history professor who specializes in Hispano-Muslim studies. For "Al-Andalus" more specifically, Fermín Miranda García and ‎Yolanda Guerrero Navarrete (two Spanish specialist on medieval history) give an estimate of under 10%. So even in the south their numbers were not very high. Needless to say, the Jews were even less.

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