DNA of Iberians from Europe

[Tomenable]

The southern Italian/Sicilian immigrants to America who came during the last part of the 19th century and first part of the twentieth century were the poorest of the poor, landless people for the most part, or barely surviving peasants, almost all of whom were illiterate. I would agree, however, that it's a tribute to their innate gifts that their grandchildren have come so far in their adopted country.

Peasants in the past tended to be more inbred than modern people. Often marriages were within the same village. And it is proven that inbreeding is bad for IQ (this is one of reasons why Islamic cousin marriages are so destructive for Muslim populations). But after the end of serfdom and the start of migrations from villages to cities, mobility of people increased, mixing of people from different regions increased, they started outbreeding, heterozygosity and IQ increased. So I agree with your conclusion that being highly endogamous is not too beneficial.

Of course there are endogamous groups which have a history of selective pressures favouring intelligence - such as these Brahmins.

But still these groups have high rates of various recessive diseases due to strong founder events and endogamy.

[Angela]

I got carried away here, and participated in taking this thread off topic. I apologize. Anyone wishing to continue this discussion about the Italian-American community, please start a thread in the ethnography section.

[Sigfrido]

OMG! They're MIXED; HALF Irish/German! How can they be held to be representative of 100% Southern Italian or Sicilian Americans?

Plus, where do you get off saying that Justice Alito or Rudy Giuliani don't look like white Americans? Do you think Americans believe they're not white Americans? You would be well advised not to think that the opinions expressed by posters on anthrofora are representative of anyone but the fringe.

Plus, I have news for you. Neither Janet Napolitano nor Chris Christie look Irish, or German, or English American.

You reminded me; I have to check your IP address.

None of those people you have posted look like how Italians are normally portrayed in Jewish owned medias. They would pass totally unnoticed in any bunch of Anglos without anyone asking about their origins. Especially in America where whites make only 60% of the population and most of them are highly mongrelized with God knows what.

[Sigfrido]

Just to make things clear, I am not claiming that those Italian Americans look like Swedes or something. My point is that even those highly cherrypicked samples posted by Angela look nothing like the "Italians" seen on MTV or Hollywood, where even Mexicans, Colombians and the like are often casted as Italian Americans by the (mostly) Jewish directors. Also they would pass completely unnoticed as individuals in any bunch of Anglos (who have heir own tiny share of dark types like Victoria Beckham), especially in modern multi racial America, where whites are a minority in almost every big city like New York for example.

[Auld Reekie]

What is idiotic is you finding "conspiracies" every time someone mentions Jews or Aryans. You must have some complex or you have been brainwashed by political-correctness. For example, if I had said Italians or Germans or Eskimos run Hollywood you would have not run around like a chicken babbling about "anti-Semitism" or "Nordicists." You are naive: There is no conspiracy about Jewish producers making Spaniards or Italians look "dark." It's just how Hollywood made them in the beginning, for example, Rudolph Valentino. It sells movies. If you think Jewesh producers are trying to make Spaniards look like Moors then you are an idiot. What's is wrong with you is you make up things that don't exist and then you force them on this forum. If you think some statements are "anti-Semitic" then keep them to yourself and don't contaminate the forum with your prejudices or paranoid fantasies. All you do is make people more stupid with your emotionalism. Anyone who thinks when someone mentions "Jews run Hollywood" is anti-Semitic has some loose nuts in their brain or is hopelessly naive or worse.

The first amendment of free speech is supposed to protect us from the likes of you. This is what it says: "First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." You have a tyrannical personality and this forum should be allowed to have free speech for all. You are acting like the government mentioned above! You act like some Bolshevik committee. It does not matter if there are Jewish racist or white racist or black racist or people from Mars who are racist. Everyone should be allowed to make their opinions in every forum. Do you own this forum? are you a goddess that knows everything?

I grew up in LA and have met and know Jews and everything under the sun. I even have Jewish friends. I have even debated with racists and they turned out to be more enlightened than you. Everyone should be allowed to express their own opinions no matter what they are. If not then you lower the standards and the culture. Look at what happened to Soviet Union where everyone was told what to think? Look at what happened in Muslim countries? They are or were all poor and backward. That is what you are trying to preach sister. Actually I think that this forum should only allow people with at least a BA degree and no prejudiced or people with agendas in the forum. Other wise there is no point.

About Penelope Cruz: I never slandered anything. You make things up in your head. She is a great beauty but not a great actress. It's my opinion. You are entitled to yours. Stop slandering me.

Why say Jewish media? Why not say JUST the media? Freedom of speech might not apply on this forum...

[Degredado]

The idea that Jews control Hollywood and that these Jews are on some kind of mission to cast certain types of actors, based on their phenotype, to deliberately "darken" a certain ethnicity (Italian-Americans, Spaniards etc), is classic Stormfront paranoia. Let's look at some Hollywood actors from the British Isles, over the years: Cary Grant, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, John Rhys-Davies, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Helena Bonham-Carter, Rowan Atkinson, Russell Brand... does anyone see British people being paranoid about these actors' "darkness"?

[Johannes]

Do you happen to know what ancestries do they declare in censuses? I'm curious about this because I can't see "Jewish ancestry" category. There was "religious response" category in U.S. 2000 census, which surely included some Jews, but it was not numerous enough to have them all.

Yes of course. Most of my Jewish friends I met was while I was teaching in L.A. All of them were teachers. The majority did not have a classic "Jewish" look (they were obviously mixed). Some I did not even know were Jewish! They looked exactly like Ukrainians or Poles! Almost all declared they came from some eastern European country, such as Poland, Russia, Ukraine, and Romania. None as I recall came from Israel or the Middle Eastern countries or were Sephardic. All of them or their parents came from either New York or some eastern U.S. region.

[Angela]

This is not going to turn into an auxiliary site for Stormfront. End of story.

[Johannes]

Why say Jewish media? Why not say JUST the media? Freedom of speech might not apply on this forum...

As you just saw with the chairman of the committee Angela: freedom of speech certainly does not exist at all here.

[Johannes]

Why say Jewish media? Why not say JUST the media? Freedom of speech might not apply on this forum...

Yes I could have said that but sometimes you don't have time to think in a politically correct or paranoid manner. You just simply tell the truth but you get punished because of telling the truth. In today's world everything is about secrets and why you cannot say what's in your mind. Everyone just shuts up and become dumber. It's very similar to communist countries in the past but done in a very devious manner.

[Johannes]

This is not going to turn into an auxiliary site for Stormfront. End of story.

No one is trying to turn this site into a "Stormfront" or other none-sense you make up. If you simply stop slandering people and treat them in a respectful manner without your arrogance then this site will function in a healthy manner. It would help a lot if you stop being a monitor. Or go somewhere else and be a monitor for some other site.

This site is about DNA of Iberians not Italians, Jews, or conspiracy theories.

[Angela]

No one is trying to turn this site into a "Stormfront" or other none-sense you make up. If you simply stop slandering people and treat them in a respectful manner without your arrogance then this site will function in a healthy manner. It would help a lot if you stop being a monitor. Or go somewhere else and be a monitor for some other site.

This site is about DNA of Iberians not Italians, Jews, or conspiracy theories.

THEN STOP POSTING ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES. I'm in a charitable mood so instead of issuing another infraction for resisting moderation I'll explain it one more time. You don't decide on the rules. You don't choose the moderators. You are being moderated. Each and every time that you resist moderation I will issue an infraction. If you accumulate enough infraction points it will result in an automatic ban. If that's what you want I will be happy to accommodate you.

If that isn't what you want, then get back on topic. I have already stated that this is not the place for a discussion of Italo-American phenotypes and I regret that I allowed the digression.

NOW MOVE ON! You have no idea how lucky you are. I've issued fewer infractions and bans than any moderator here.

[hornblower35]

this way some americans or hollywoodians look at basques (LOL):
I can't already put any link but google this youtube video and it will appair: kt_-m_e39TM

[Turmfalke]

Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.

You nailed it!

Exactly the same applies to italians and nobody questions them, considering that since the Roman empire was a mestizo society.

This isn´t to extol a heritage of Germanic tribes, it happens that there is a dominant theory in forums where hispanophobs (which are many and diverse places) are determined to say the Spanien is genetically arab and jewish (semitic) precisely using the rhetoric that you are using: 800 years of Muslim invasion... but only in Granada, man. The Reconquista began in 722 and up the Toledo spent 360 years. In the process of Reconquista, thet became populated cities with Christians from Northern Peninsula.

And for now, sir, science tell us that R1b is the largest in Spanien, ergo, the semitic genetic is negligible, wiht or without Muslim invasion.

Despite these data and a genetic map ahead, the "professional haters" insist that Spaniards are Moors.

Seeing is believing. Lol

[redeyednewt]

I have an Iberian heritage but it comes from my relatives from Southern Italy. I am still looking into it and researching it.

[Maciamo]

Sorry, I didn't have time to reply to this thread before.

To answer the OP's question, the Iron-age Iberians were mainly descended from the Mesolithic and Neolithic inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, who belonged to I2a, G2a, E1b1b, J1, T1a and probably also J2. But I would expect to find also a considerable amount of R1b-S116 that arrived with Bronze Age invaders who lost their IE language (like in the Basque population).

[berun]

Iberians incinerated their deceased... so it's very difficult to get DNA from ashes; but luckly they inhumated their babes under their homes as i think did the Anatolian neolithic farmers, so from such cases it would be possible to extract quality DNA... but we might wait yet.

For ancient Iberian mtDNA we have:

Sampietro, M. L., Caramelli, D., Lao, O., Calafell, F.,
Comas, D., Lari, M., Agusti, B., Bertranpetit, J. &
Lalueza-Fox, C. 2005 The genetics of the pre-Roman
Iberian Peninsula: a mtDNA study of ancient Iberians.
Ann. Hum. Genet. 69, 535–548. (doi:10.1111/j.1529-
8817.2005.00194.x)

Palaeogenetic evidence supports a dual model
of Neolithic spreading into Europe
M. L. Sampietro1, O. Lao2, D. Caramelli3, M. Lari3, R. Pou4,
M. Martı´4, J. Bertranpetit1 and C. Lalueza-Fox

comparable results come to be more or less:

late neolithic - Iberians - medieval Catalonia
(11) (16) (24)

H 36 53 56

T 18 6 8

J 18 12 3

I1 9,1 - -

U 9 17 9

W 9 - 5

K - 6 6

HV - 6 1


but it's to take into account that major differences are found in two articles related to modern Catalan mtDNA...

By the way I would like to know which fraction of such mtDNA might be of indoeuropean origin, because looking at such data seems like the "indoeuropean-R1b-males-that-lost-their-indoeuropean-language-for-Iberian" would be a only-males tribe...