DNA of Iberians from Europe

[Sile]

I think you mean Numidians.

thanks

At the time of the invasion of Britain the Roman armies would have included people from all over the empire, much more so than actual Romans proper. We are talking about a time when even many of the emperors were themselves foreigners, like Septimius Severus, a Libyan who actually died in Britain while planning a military campaign to Scotland. We have a very good idea of this from surviving Roman-era data on the composition of the legions stationed in Britain:

https://books.google.com/books?id=h...rs, Thracians, Dalmatians, Frisians,"&f=false

"The Notitia Imperii shows us that bodies of Syrians, Cilicians, Spaniards, Moors, Thracians, Dalmatians, Frisians, & c., formed the military colonists of the stations in Britain ; and when even the emperors themselves were often not of Italian birth, and the most trusted officers and governors provincials or even barbarians, we have no reason to suppose that any notable proportion of genuine Roman blood found its way to this country."

In the first invasion of Britain there was no Illyrians, thracians, alpine or north-italians people in the Roman legions, as these places where still independent from Roman rule. so southern, central italian plus iberians would have been the vast majority that went into britain.

 

[Drac II]

Italy hadn't black slave trade unlike Lisbon and Seville

But it was a customer of those slave trading cities.

 

[Drac II]

See Haak et al:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

View attachment 7269

Northern Spain is Pais Vasco.

Does it specifically say so anywhere in the study? Otherwise that is quite unlikely since they already have a separate place for the results of Basque samples, so these must be from elsewhere in northern Spain.

 

[Drac II]

Celts were an insignificant minority in Iberia.

That's not what scholars on the subject say.

Also IBD anaylis from Botigue et al proved that there is no recent (last 4000 years) Jewish and MENA admixture in Italy.

On the contrary, that study actually claims that Middle Eastern input in southern Europe is "recent", maybe as recent as only 200-300 years ago. They also claimed similarly for African DNA. It's a paper that has not been supported by more proper autosomal studies.

 

[Drac II]

Blacks in Roman times?is this a joke or i haven't understand that post?lol

Anyway in the Roman era they barely know ancient Berbers but about the blacks I really doubt.

The Romans were certainly acquainted with black Africans and left quite a few depictions of them in their art. Needless to say, their portrayals of black Africans show very different phenotype from their art work depicting North Africans, which shows them as Caucasoids not Negroids.

About the slaves, they came from everywhere the Empire but many were relocated not only in Italy but outside Italy and in other parts of the Empire, so technically all the modern nations under the Roman empire had slaves from everywhere.

Italy being the center of the empire it goes without saying that the majority of the slaves were imported there. The other parts of the empire actually supplied the slaves for Rome.

 

[Vukodav]

That's not what scholars on the subject say.

It doesn't matter what Iberian "experts" suppose. There is no genetic difference between Celtic and non Celtic areas of Iberia. Indeed the highest frequencies of "Celtic" or "Italo Celtic" haplotypes like U152 and L21 are in the non Celtic non Indo European areas like the Basque countries or Catalonia. Outside of these, Celtic haplotypes are almost nonexistent.

So the Celts were an insignificant minority and all the Celtiberians were Celtized natives.

On the contrary, that study actually claims that Middle Eastern input in southern Europe is "recent", maybe as recent as only 200-300 years ago. They also claimed similarly for African DNA. It's a paper that has not been supported by more proper autosomal studies.

You are confusing North African and Middle Eastern ADMIXTURES.

"Southern Europe" is a wide word. Botigue et al found significant recent Middle Eastern admixture in Greece and in Cyprus, which were dominated by Turks for almos 500 years. On the other hand the study failed to find recent MENA admixture in Italy. See the figure 7 in the Supplentary figures.

 

[Hauteville]

But it was a customer of those slave trading cities.

By the 1500s, the black population increased due to slavery. In 1600, the population of Lisbon and Algarve was reported at 10%

http://www.afropedea.org/afro-portuguese

http://usslave.blogspot.it/2012/11/slaves-in-16th-century-seville.html

http://elcorreoweb.es/historico/el-ultimo-esclavo-de-sevilla-GEEC311412

http://elbichocurioso.blogspot.it/2014/01/los-negros-de-gibraleon.html

http://flamenco001.blogspot.it/2011/08/negros-y-mulatos-en-las-cunas-flamencas.html

http://mrdomingo.com/2013/04/10/la-desconocida-historia-de-la-esclavitud-en-espana/

 

[Hauteville]

On the contrary, that study actually claims that Middle Eastern input in southern Europe is "recent", maybe as recent as only 200-300 years ago. They also claimed similarly for African DNA. It's a paper that has not been supported by more proper autosomal studies.

Paschou et al has studied many Italians and Greeks and the conclusion was that the Near Eastern input is from the pre-Roman times.

 

[Hauteville]

But it was a customer of those slave trading cities.

In 1600, the population of Lisbon and Algarve was reported at 10%.

http://www.afropedea.org/afro-portuguese

 

[Милан М.]

Does anyone has any better data for Y-Dna from Andalusia,Spain?Thanks.

 

[Drac II]

It doesn't matter what Iberian "experts" suppose. There is no genetic difference between Celtic and non Celtic areas of Iberia. Indeed the highest frequencies of "Celtic" or "Italo Celtic" haplotypes like U152 and L21 are in the non Celtic non Indo European areas like the Basque countries or Catalonia. Outside of these, Celtic haplotypes are almost nonexistent.

So the Celts were an insignificant minority and all the Celtiberians were Celtized natives.

It's not just "Iberian experts" who say quite differently but also those from other countries. And there is no single homogeneous "Celtic" genetic make-up. The Celts were a conglomerate of peoples and therefore would not have been genetically homogeneous.

You are confusing North African and Middle Eastern ADMIXTURES.

"Southern Europe" is a wide word. Botigue et al found significant recent Middle Eastern admixture in Greece and in Cyprus, which were dominated by Turks for almos 500 years. On the other hand the study failed to find recent MENA admixture in Italy. See the figure 7 in the Supplentary figures.

The authors include Italy as "southeastern Europe" in that paper. They also strangely enough did not include Egypt as North Africa. It is a sloppy paper with many dubious assumptions.

 

[Drac II]

In 1600, the population of Lisbon and Algarve was reported at 10%.

http://www.afropedea.org/afro-portuguese

Lisbon and Algarve were somewhat higher, as Portugal was more deeply involved in the slave trade and for a longer time than Spain. The slave population of Seville was about 7%:

https://books.google.com/books?id=O...onepage&q=slave population seville 7%&f=false

Genoa's was around 4-5%:

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...the genoese slave population "4 to 5"&f=false

 

[Vukodav]

Estimates of slaves vary with the source.

According to this 10% of population of Southern Portugal and the province of Sevilla in Spain, was made up of Black African slaves.

Between 1460 and 1640 between 350.000 and 400.000 Black African slaves were imported to Spain and Portugal.

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/histor...ian-roots-transatlantic-slave-trade-1440–1640

Black slaves made 10% of total population of Azores and Madeira.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AZORES/2004-07/1088812080

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira#Settlement

 

[Hauteville]

Genova hadn't black slaves, most of the slaves in Italy were from the Balkans while some black in Spain got high status like Juan Latino and Juan de Pareja.
Look at that, even today there are some of the descendent who show african traits.

http://elbichocurioso.blogspot.it/2014/01/los-negros-de-gibraleon.html

And Alcacer do Sal was the most important city with high black settlements.

http://www.cm-alcacerdosal.pt/PT/Visitar/percursospedestres/Paginas/PasseiodosNegros.aspx

Please post me Italian cities with descendent of black slaves if you want.

PS: I'm not anti Iberian but this guy usually attacks Italians.

 

[Angela]

I'm well aware that some posters try to turn every thread about Iberians into a thread about Italians, and that it's difficult not to respond if something in a post is incorrect or misleading. However, please, let's all stay on topic, including me. If not, I'll just move the off topic comments to the first appropriate thread I can find. Thank you.

 

[Drac II]

Estimates of slaves vary with the source.

According to this 10% of population of Southern Portugal and the province of Sevilla in Spain, was made up of Black African slaves.

Between 1460 and 1640 between 350.000 and 400.000 Black African slaves were imported to Spain and Portugal.

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/histor...ian-roots-transatlantic-slave-trade-1440–1640

Link is not fully visible, plus such a figure does not take into account all the slaves in Portugal and Spain who were exported to the American possessions of these empires.

 

[Vukodav]

Wrong. 99% of Black Slaves in America arrived directly from Africa, not from Iberia. The figure I've posted refers only to the period between 1460 and 1640.Slavery was abolished only in 1840 in Iberia. Obviosuly the total number of imported black slaves in Iberia in the period between 1460 and 1840 is double than that and probably between 700.000 and 800.000.

 

[Pax Augusta]

PS: these Italian guys usually attack Iberians, therefore the necessity to address their manipulations.

This is a thread about Iberians. You're blaming Italians but you're doing the same, you attack all the time Italians here on Eupedia.

 

[Drac II]

Wrong. 99% of Black Slaves in America arrived directly from Africa, not from Iberia. The figure I've posted refers only to the period between 1460 and 1640.Slavery was abolished only in 1840 in Iberia. Obviosuly the total number of imported black slaves in Iberia in the period between 1460 and 1840 is double than that and probably between 700.000 and 800.000.

Apparently you did not bother to read the link I posted clearly indicating that the early Africans imported into the Spanish possessions in America came from the slaves already in Spain, not directly from Africa.

Spain's participation in the slave trade actually decreased with time, not increased, so your estimates are quite mistaken.

 

[Angela]

Posts numbered 55,56,57,59,61,64, and 65 have been removed as off-topic. You were warned in post number 54. It was obviously read because there was even a response to it. In the face of the fact that this is obvious resistance to moderation I did not go to the bother of finding an appropriate thread for them.

Stay on topic.