DNA of Iberians from Europe

Tomenable said:
Drac II,

The ultimate origin of Proto-Germanic language was in Scandinavia & Denmark in the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age.

So ultimately carriers (speakers) of some form of Proto-Gothic had also come from there.

Saying that Goths came from Poland not Scandinavia can only be as much true as saying that Islam came to Iberia from North Africa and not from Arabia. Goths maybe came from Poland, but some part of ancestors of Goths had come from Scandinavia before.

Germanic-speakers started to expand from Scandinavia and Denmark approximately during the 4th century BCE.

If you think that Proto-Germanic evolved in Poland, or in a large area encompassing also Poland - then no, this is wrong.
Click to expand...

Since nothing that can be identified as "Gothic" culture-wise has been found older than what has been found in Poland, then the logical conclusion, in light of current archaeological evidence, is that the Goths originated in Poland. Speculating about where other Germanic-speaking cultures came from does not clarify this, since we are dealing specifically with the Goths and the characteristics that set them apart from other groups.

In the case of Islam the record is even clearer and there is no dispute whatsoever since the oldest evidence for this religion all comes from Arabia. Everyone in the world who has practiced this religion at any point in history got it either directly or indirectly from the Arabs.
 
Draco II said:
Since nothing that can be identified as "Gothic" culture-wise has been found older than what has been found in Poland, then the logical conclusion, in light of current archaeological evidence, is that the Goths originated in Poland.
Click to expand...

There is evidence of cultural links and migrations between Scandinavia and southern coast of the Baltic Sea at that time.

And M. Kulikowski actually questions the "Gothicness" of archaeological cultures which were Gothic according to Heather. Some other scholars also question the "Gothicness" of archaeological cultures and claim that Goths never lived in Poland.

Frederik Kortlandt, "The Origin of the Goths", cites a theory about South German origin of Goths based on linguistic links:

"(...) Claims that Gothic is closer to Upper German than to Middle German, closer to High German than to Low German, closer to German than to Scandinavian, closer to Danish than to Swedish, and that the original homeland of the Goths must therefore be located in the southermost part of the Germanic territories, not in Scandinavia (...)"

F. Kortlandt, "The Origin of the Goths", page 1.

Let's add that "the southernmost part of the Germanic territories" is not Poland, but somewhere near the Roman frontier.

Also supporters of the autochthonistic origin of West Slavs claim that Germanic tribes didn't live in Poland.

================================

It is actually safest to assume, that Proto-Gothic originated in Scandinavia, as all of Proto-Germanic originated there.

How did those languages and tribes spread after leaving Scandinavia is another issue, here there are many controversies.
 
Tomenable said:


There is evidence of cultural links and migrations between Scandinavia and southern coast of the Baltic Sea at that time.

And M. Kulikowski actually questions the "Gothicness" of archaeological cultures which were Gothic according to Heather. Some other scholars also question the "Gothicness" of archaeological cultures and claim that Goths never lived in Poland.

Frederik Kortlandt, "The Origin of the Goths", cites a theory about South German origin of Goths based on linguistic links:

"(...) Claims that Gothic is closer to Upper German than to Middle German, closer to High German than to Low German, closer to German than to Scandinavian, closer to Danish than to Swedish, and that the original homeland of the Goths must therefore be located in the southermost part of the Germanic territories, not in Scandinavia (...)"

F. Kortlandt, "The Origin of the Goths", page 1.

Let's add that "the southernmost part of the Germanic territories" is not Poland, but somewhere near the Roman frontier.

Also supporters of the autochthonistic origin of West Slavs claim that Germanic tribes didn't live in Poland.

================================

It is actually safest to assume, that Proto-Gothic originated in Scandinavia, as all of Proto-Germanic originated there.

How did those languages and tribes spread after leaving Scandinavia is another issue, here there are many controversies.
Click to expand...

the question should be ......since goths destroyed sarmatians and incorporated the remainder into gothic armies, then what marker did goths leave in italy and Spain.........what are these sarmatian markers


next, Goths to me where always from poland, .....gothones cousins of goths in Poland, ........Gutes, getes .........are they all the same when the language is noted as different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotlander

gutes are from gotland....getes are from sweden
 
Tomenable said:


There is evidence of cultural links and migrations between Scandinavia and southern coast of the Baltic Sea at that time.

And M. Kulikowski actually questions the "Gothicness" of archaeological cultures which were Gothic according to Heather. Some other scholars also question the "Gothicness" of archaeological cultures and claim that Goths never lived in Poland.

Frederik Kortlandt, "The Origin of the Goths", cites a theory about South German origin of Goths based on linguistic links:

"(...) Claims that Gothic is closer to Upper German than to Middle German, closer to High German than to Low German, closer to German than to Scandinavian, closer to Danish than to Swedish, and that the original homeland of the Goths must therefore be located in the southermost part of the Germanic territories, not in Scandinavia (...)"

F. Kortlandt, "The Origin of the Goths", page 1.

Let's add that "the southernmost part of the Germanic territories" is not Poland, but somewhere near the Roman frontier.

Also supporters of the autochthonistic origin of West Slavs claim that Germanic tribes didn't live in Poland.

================================

It is actually safest to assume, that Proto-Gothic originated in Scandinavia, as all of Proto-Germanic originated there.

How did those languages and tribes spread after leaving Scandinavia is another issue, here there are many controversies.
Click to expand...

Heather is only one among many scholars who have concluded that the oldest evidence for Gothic culture is found in Poland. But whether it was in Poland or Germany, the point is that the archaeological evidence uncovered so far does not point towards Scandinavia as the origin of the Goths.
 
Drac II said:
I answer your posts because they are often wrong, plain and simple. Why should your incorrect and strange claims be allowed to go on unchallenged? That's the real reason why you dislike the fact that some people around here confront your posts, nothing else.
Click to expand...

You like to answer my posts because you probably have no job and get bored all day. If you were so knowledgeable you would have ignored me since you think I am so "wrong." But it's clear to me you are not that knowledgeable. You also don't debate; you split hairs and never offer any knowledge that adds to our understanding. You just say "this is the facts, etc . . . " This is why many here ignore you. I also asked you what ethnic background and what are your credentials but you never answer. You seem like some kind of an expert but you are not fooling me.
 
Drac II said:
Heather is only one among many scholars who have concluded that the oldest evidence for Gothic culture is found in Poland. But whether it was in Poland or Germany, the point is that the archaeological evidence uncovered so far does not point towards Scandinavia as the origin of the Goths.
Click to expand...

That's right: "so far." We need to wait and see what the future brings. And yes i read Peter Heather. I don't care if you doubt it. Jordanes and other writers claimed that Goths came from Scandinavia. Since they spoke an Eastern Germanic language and their culture was Germanic, then it's safe to assume they came from the Germanic homeland, i.e., Scandinavia.
 
Sile said:
the question should be ......since goths destroyed sarmatians and incorporated the remainder into gothic armies, then what marker did goths leave in italy and Spain.........what are these sarmatian markers


next, Goths to me where always from poland, .....gothones cousins of goths in Poland, ........Gutes, getes .........are they all the same when the language is noted as different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotlander

gutes are from gotland....getes are from sweden
Click to expand...

Probably the Ostrogoths picked up a lot of Sarmatian and Skythian DNA since they ruled southern Ukraine for almost 200 years. The Visigoths moved more west but also would have picked up some Skythian DNA. But what exactly was Sarmatian and Skythian DNA?

This is exactly my point: I know the Goths lived in Poland for many years but Jordanes stated that they came form Scandinavia. Since Goths were Germanic then it was obvious to assume they came from there. Yet this guy criticizes me for making things up or giving "simple" answers. He is the most stubborn and disrespectful commentator in this forum. You cannot debate him because he does not want to believe anything that is different from what's ingrained in his brain.
 
Tomenable said:
So Peter Heather says, that Goths came from Poland - and not from Scandinavia.

But if you ask for example Michael Kulikowski instead of Peter Heather, he will tell you that Goths came not from Poland, but just from behind the border of the Roman Empire (i.e. Goths lived on the other side of the border, next to the Empire, and came from there). And it is also 100% true, just like it is true that Muslims came to Iberia from the opposite site of the Strait of Gibraltar.

"Goths were a product of the Roman frontier" - this is what Kulikowski wrote, if I recall correctly.

However, we all know that the ultimate origin of Islam and Muslims was in Arabia.
Click to expand...


I bet if Kulikowski was in this forum this Drac guy would have insulted him and accused him of being a "charlatan" and "wrong." Anything that is different to him will only reinforce his stubborness that he is right in everything and everyone else is wrong.
 
Drac II said:
Heather is only one among many scholars who have concluded that the oldest evidence for Gothic culture is found in Poland. But whether it was in Poland or Germany, the point is that the archaeological evidence uncovered so far does not point towards Scandinavia as the origin of the Goths.
Click to expand...

OK, but if you go back, way back, it did originate somewhere either in Northern Germany, Denmark, or Southern Scandinavia. This is the original homeland of all Germanic peoples. Are you saying the Goths were not Germanic??
 
Sile said:
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/spaniards-do-have-moorish-admixture/

iberians have a lot of north-african markers............
Click to expand...

No, not too much (except among Canarian islanders and to a lesser extent some areas of western Iberia), and certainly quite less than certain other European groups have of Middle Eastern markers. And the link you posted is by that blogger "Razib", who is trying to use that sloppy Botigue et al paper for his agenda.
 
Johannes said:
You like to answer my posts because you probably have no job and get bored all day. If you were so knowledgeable you would have ignored me since you think I am so "wrong." But it's clear to me you are not that knowledgeable. You also don't debate; you split hairs and never offer any knowledge that adds to our understanding. You just say "this is the facts, etc . . . " This is why many here ignore you. I also asked you what ethnic background and what are your credentials but you never answer. You seem like some kind of an expert but you are not fooling me.
Click to expand...

Funny, because it is you who never ignores me and tries to come back with replies, but only to once again usually fail to prove your dubious claims.
 
Johannes said:
OK, but if you go back, way back, it did originate somewhere either in Northern Germany, Denmark, or Southern Scandinavia. This is the original homeland of all Germanic peoples. Are you saying the Goths were not Germanic??
Click to expand...

The fact that they spoke a Germanic language does not mean that they must have originated in Scandinavia. Germanic peoples were found elsewhere too.
 
Johannes said:
That's right: "so far." We need to wait and see what the future brings. And yes i read Peter Heather. I don't care if you doubt it. Jordanes and other writers claimed that Goths came from Scandinavia. Since they spoke an Eastern Germanic language and their culture was Germanic, then it's safe to assume they came from the Germanic homeland, i.e., Scandinavia.
Click to expand...

Well, we have to go by what is currently available. If some day someone finds evidence for earlier Gothic culture in Scandinavia than anywhere else then the record will be changed. But so far the earliest evidence does not point toward Scandinavia.

If you really had read Heather then you would not have been surprised when I told you about the Goths likely originating in Poland, you would already have known about it.
 
Drac II said:
No, not too much (except among Canarian islanders and to a lesser extent some areas of western Iberia), and certainly quite less than certain other European groups have of Middle Eastern markers. And the link you posted is by that blogger "Razib", who is trying to use that sloppy Botigue et al paper for his agenda.
Click to expand...

I agree razib is a bit "sloppy" , but the 35 comments where interesting with this link below is a good read if you view it all

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626
 
Sile said:
I agree razib is a bit "sloppy" , but the 35 comments where interesting with this link below is a good read if you view it all

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626
Click to expand...

Interesting that they actually estimated the date of arrival of that L marker, and found it very old. Also, interestingly enough it was found in a western part of Iberia. For some reason the western parts of the peninsula seem to have attracted the attention of ancient migrants/farmers who carried African markers more than the eastern parts.
 
You have not surprised at all. I read Heather's book 25 years ago. I knew the Wielbark Culture was in Poland but I agreed that the Goths MUST HAVE originated in Scandinavia. That's all. What surprised me is your stubborn belief that they did not originate there. What you want to believe is OK by me but just don't go around slandering people whom you don't agree with. You also never answer my question about what exactly you have read as you come across as being strange.
 
Johannes said:
You have not surprised at all. I read Heather's book 25 years ago. I knew the Wielbark Culture was in Poland but I agreed that the Goths MUST HAVE originated in Scandinavia. That's all. What surprised me is your stubborn belief that they did not originate there. What you want to believe is OK by me but just don't go around slandering people whom you don't agree with. You also never answer my question about what exactly you have read as you come across as being strange.
Click to expand...

Further evidence that you in fact have not read Heather's book: it was first published in 1996, not 25 years ago. Thanks for proving once again that it is in fact you who is the "strange" one around here.
 
Drac II said:
Further evidence that you in fact have not read Heather's book: it was first published in 1996, not 25 years ago. Thanks for proving once again that it is in fact you who is the "strange" one around here.
Click to expand...

I did read it in the 1990's. Actually I read it while doing my research on the Goths during the 1990's while I was getting my masters in history. So I got the date wrong. Big deal. It was a long time ago.

The one who give further evidence of strangeness is you: OK, I guess you read Heather's book but why don't you tell us all about how much your read, your ethnicity, and education? I am guessing you have a BA??? You don't want to give us the information because you want no one to know. Right? I bet you don't even have a job and stay all day bored putting your two cents to every website that deals with genetics. Right?
 
Sile said:
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/spaniards-do-have-moorish-admixture/

iberians have a lot of north-african markers............but where these prior moor or berber
Click to expand...

No: Iberians in general have small amounts of Berber markers. But if you look at certain regions of Spain and Portugal you will find significant amounts. For example, SW Iberia, which will be southern Portugal and parts of western Andalusia have significant amounts of Berber DNA. This is because the Berbers settled there in large numbers. Although most were expelled or killed many converted. This also happened in SE Spain. I read somewhere that 8% is the average Berber DNA in Iberia, but that it varies all over the peninsula. For example, it's almost 0% in the north but in the south it can reach as high as 20%. But if you add Jewish DNA it becomes even higher. Combined DNA of Berber and Jews can be between 10-20% in general over the Spanish population (don't know in Portugal. But it is probably higher).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 161958 times.

Back
Top