DNA of Iberians from Europe

Funny, because it is you who never ignores me and tries to come back with replies, but only to once again usually fail to prove your dubious claims.

Yes you are right, it is funny I answer your posts. You know what? I will stop answering them.
 
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
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220px-Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg
Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
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So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
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Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
Z
Z

220px-Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg
Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
Z

So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
9k=

Gosh, does it correlate with good looks and talent then? Although to be honest I don't find Javier Bardem very good looking...extremely talented, yes, handsome, no. No question about the other two, though.
 
I did read it in the 1990's. Actually I read it while doing my research on the Goths during the 1990's while I was getting my masters in history. So I got the date wrong. Big deal. It was a long time ago.

The one who give further evidence of strangeness is you: OK, I guess you read Heather's book but why don't you tell us all about how much your read, your ethnicity, and education? I am guessing you have a BA??? You don't want to give us the information because you want no one to know. Right? I bet you don't even have a job and stay all day bored putting your two cents to every website that deals with genetics. Right?

Why do you keep asking such strange personal questions? And why do you think it has any bearing on what is being talked about in any of these threads? Bottom line: you make a lot of strange claims which more often than not you can't back up.
 
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
Z
Z

220px-Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg
Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
Z

So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
9k=

Canarian or Berber or not, Javier Bardem looks a lot like American actor Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I suppose you will also claim to discover "Berber genes" in the fellow.
 
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers.
Z
Z

220px-Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg
Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands:
Z

So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.
9k=

I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close
 
Sorry. This Chinese "new" school I am working at has a lot of internet problems and makes it difficult to post.

Here are the pictures of Antonio Banderas and Javier Bardem. I will also add Pedro Almodovar and Rafael Nadal. I am not saying they are pure Berbers or Jews. OK? What I am saying is they reveal their Berber/Jewish ancestry. Many Berbers and even more Jews converted during the Reconquista. These persons reveal their non-European background. They all either come from Andalusia or their ancestors originated there. Almodovar even has an Arabic surname but he comes from Castile-La Mancha. Nadal is from the Balearic Islands. But since most Spaniards have moved extensively all over Spain, I will bet money they all hailed from Andalusia or regions next to it.
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I guess it does not want to copy more pictures. Here is Pedro;
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he clearly shows characteristics of Berbers or Arabs, even Jews.
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I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close

Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.
 
Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.

I've spent many years living in the Netherlands, Spain, Italy where they have large North African immigration.
 
Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.

I've spent several years in the Netherlands, Italy and Spain. They have large North African population.
 
Sorry. This Chinese "new" school I am working at has a lot of internet problems and makes it difficult to post.

Here are the pictures of Antonio Banderas and Javier Bardem. I will also add Pedro Almodovar and Rafael Nadal. I am not saying they are pure Berbers or Jews. OK? What I am saying is they reveal their Berber/Jewish ancestry. Many Berbers and even more Jews converted during the Reconquista. These persons reveal their non-European background. They all either come from Andalusia or their ancestors originated there. Almodovar even has an Arabic surname but he comes from Castile-La Mancha. Nadal is from the Balearic Islands. But since most Spaniards have moved extensively all over Spain, I will bet money they all hailed from Andalusia or regions next to it.
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9k=
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The major flaw with your theory here is that you can find people with such features in places where there hardly were any Jews or Berbers.

Plus you have already been informed that the number of Berbers and Jews in Iberia was actually comparatively small. Jews, for example, only made up about 1-2% of the population. Even if all of them had been converted to Christianity and assimilated, they would hardly have had much of an influence on the host population.
 
Any photos of Berbers or Sephardim who look like Penelope or Banderas are welcome (general mediterranean look doesn't count)
 
I've spent several years in the Netherlands, Italy and Spain. They have large North African population.

I see North Africans on daily basis and the Cruz sisters can blend among them easily. Nadal is too robust and look typical Iberian to me.
 
I think there's a lot of generalizing going on and a lot of confusion of terms. The Berbers of North Africa are those North Africans who have retained at least a partial use of the Berber language and some degree of their tribal structure and their ancient culture. They are usually pretty endogamous. The level of SSA among them varies depending on the tribe and the country. Some, like the Mozabites, have quite a bit.
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Other groups look like they have a lot less, and some among them just look southern European:
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Likewise there are a lot of North Africans who don't primarily identify as Berbers. They also vary in terms of SSA admixture, with some urban, upper class people not showing a lot of SSA but most of them showing what is close to what the studies say, which is about 20-25% SSA ancestry.

The people who have gone to Europe recently do seem to have at least that amount of SSA ancestry. On the other hand, the ones who have 3-5% would probably go unnoticed. There are a lot of white South Americans with that amount of SSA.

All this commentary about what Berbers looked like (i.e.how much SSA they had, which seems so important to people) in the early Middle Ages when some of them went to Europe is just speculation. From contemporary depictions, it seems that some predominantly SSA people were part of the forces, and undoubtedly some mixed people also participated. Many probably looked pretty similar to southern Europeans. We just don't know. Nobody was around to do a scientific study.

This stuff about famous Spanish actors is just silly. They look Mediterranean, which should hardly be a surprise, and that goes for Penelope Cruz too. And yes, there are Sephardic Jews who look a bit like her, but it's not because she looks like a Sephardic Jew, because she doesn't; it's because Sephardic (and North African) Jews can sometimes look pretty generically southern European.

picture-1-136926106591.jpg


Probably this is a more common look, however.
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Sigfrido:I see North Africans on daily basis and the Cruz sisters can blend among them easily
.

Most North African women in Europe don't look like Penelope Cruz at all, and not just because she's a beautiful actress. There are consequences here for deliberately provocative comments.
 
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All this commentary about what Berbers looked like (i.e.how much SSA they had, which seems so important to people) in the early Middle Ages when some of them went to Europe is just speculation. From contemporary depictions, it seems that some predominantly SSA people were part of the forces, and undoubtedly some mixed people also participated. Many probably looked pretty similar to southern Europeans. We just don't know. Nobody was around to do a scientific study.

Do we need a scientific study to plainly see how they were portrayed by others and by themselves? The evidence seems pretty clear: the sub-Saharan types among them were minimal. A look at contemporary sources by people who were in contact with them shows this pretty well. Take a look at the many drawings representing them in the "Cantigas" manuscript of king Alfonso the Wise, or the Byzantine chronicle of John Skylitzes. In this last one we have drawings representing Byzantines, Greeks and/or Italians in confrontation with various Muslim forces, specially from Fatimid North Africa, and once again the only way of telling them apart from one another is by the garbs they wear. Obviously the Byzantine scribes who illuminated the chronicle did not see the Muslims of the time as being some sort of exotic strange people very physically different from them, or Greeks, or Italians.

We also have coins and busts depicting Berbers from Roman times, when some of them also went to Europe (some of them even made it all the way up to Britain via the Roman armies.) A similar pattern repeats itself in these earlier times: almost all the depictions show Caucasian people.

Even older are the depictions by the Egyptians (who were North Africans themselves.) Same pattern: almost all the depictions of themselves and their Libyan neighbors show Caucasoid types. When they painted Nubians or Ethiopians, on the other hand, we usually see Negroid or Negroid-Caucasoid mixed types.

Contrary to what some people (specially those with Afrocentric agendas) want to argue, these were not some sort of abstract "conventions". When these ancient and medieval artists wanted to portray exotic (from their point of view) looking people, they very easily did so. We have examples of Negroid types in Middle Eastern, North African and European ancient and medieval art. So they were not ignorant of what these peoples looked like, but nevertheless they only rarely portray them. The reason should be obvious: to them these peoples were an exotic foreign element, not something they would commonly see around them every day. When they portray their own people, on the other hand, they paint what we see: Caucasian types.
 
The fact that they spoke a Germanic language does not mean that they must have originated in Scandinavia. Germanic peoples were found elsewhere too.

Afro-Americans speak a Germanic language (AAVE - Afro-American Vernacular English), yet they clearly did not originate in Scandinavia.

Ashkenazi Jews also spoke a Germanic language - Yiddish - but they also did not originate in Scandinavia just like Afro-Americans didn't.

Such and other similar groups prove that you can speak a Germanic language without having any Scandinavian roots, indeed.

Though Afro-Americans might actually have some Scandinavian admixture. They are 15% - 20% European, part of it is Scandinavian.

From another forum I know a Black Afro-American guy with typically Scandinavian Y-DNA haplogroup I1.
 
Any photos of Berbers or Sephardim who look like Penelope or Banderas are welcome (general mediterranean look doesn't count)

What do you want? exact or similar pictures of Penelope Cruz or Antonio Banderas? It seems kind of impossible doesn't it? How many Berbers or Jews look like movie stars unless they are heavily mixed with Europeans?
 
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Do we need a scientific study to plainly see how they were portrayed by others and by themselves? The evidence seems pretty clear: the sub-Saharan types among them were minimal. A look at contemporary sources by people who were in contact with them shows this pretty well. Take a look at the many drawings representing them in the "Cantigas" manuscript of king Alfonso the Wise, or the Byzantine chronicle of John Skylitzes. In this last one we have drawings representing Byzantines, Greeks and/or Italians in confrontation with various Muslim forces, specially from Fatimid North Africa, and once again the only way of telling them apart from one another is by the garbs they wear. Obviously the Byzantine scribes who illuminated the chronicle did not see the Muslims of the time as being some sort of exotic strange people very physically different from them, or Greeks, or Italians.

We also have coins and busts depicting Berbers from Roman times, when some of them also went to Europe (some of them even made it all the way up to Britain via the Roman armies.) A similar pattern repeats itself in these earlier times: almost all the depictions show Caucasian people.

Even older are the depictions by the Egyptians (who were North Africans themselves.) Same pattern: almost all the depictions of themselves and their Libyan neighbors show Caucasoid types. When they painted Nubians or Ethiopians, on the other hand, we usually see Negroid or Negroid-Caucasoid mixed types.

Contrary to what some people (specially those with Afrocentric agendas) want to argue, these were not some sort of abstract "conventions". When these ancient and medieval artists wanted to portray exotic (from their point of view) looking people, they very easily did so. We have examples of Negroid types in Middle Eastern, North African and European ancient and medieval art. So they were not ignorant of what these peoples looked like, but nevertheless they only rarely portray them. The reason should be obvious: to them these peoples were an exotic foreign element, not something they would commonly see around them every day. When they portray their own people, on the other hand, they paint what we see: Caucasian types.

So what? Why do you keep harping about Arabs and Berbers being similar to Europeans??? Caucasian people range from brown to near white. Indians and Pakistanis are very dark, --some even black! -- yet they are considered "Caucasians." In Spain the Moors were very dark and that is why they were named as such. You keep trying to convince us of something that cannot be convinced. Stop using your "paint" analogy and use some common sense.
 

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