Northern Route for Out of Africa based on Whole Genomes

[Angela]

Why is that Angela? Just out of curiosity the dna analises of Ramses is not conclusive?



Thats correct but that would be the V88 type. Do we have a time when R1b migrated back to Africa? If not mistaken the re migration took place through Iberia. Would it have spread back to North Africa by that time?. I know some of the R1b V88 is present in North Africa in current populations

So far as I know the yDna analysis of Ramses is correct, which means he was indeed, as you pointed out, E1b1a. However, he was from the 20th Dynasty (his rule started in 1186 BC). Expredel stated that Tutankhamen, who was from the 18th dynasty (he ruled from 1361 to 1352 BC), was yDna R1b M269, and he was assuming, I believe, that as Tut was from an earlier dynasty than Ramses, his R1b lineage is the original lineage of the Pharaohs of Egypt.

The only so called "proof" that Tut was R1b is that during a presentation about the testing of Tut's remains a screen shot of yDna results was shown when they were describing the testing, and when the values from that screen shot were run through a predictor it's claimed that the values are those of someone who is R1b. That may in fact be the case, but we don't know if the screen shot was of a default result, perhaps that of one of the scientists, and was just used for demonstration purposes, or if it was indeed a screen shot of Tutankhamen's results.

Anyway, my point was that even if Tutankhamen was R1b, that would not be any proof that all the prior Egyptian dynasties were R1b, much less M269.

My comment about the Hyksos was because some people used to speculate that the Hyksos were an Indo-European group related to the Hittites. That's no longer considered a mainstream idea, with most experts now believing they were a Semitic speaking group related to Canaanites. Of course, there is R1b in the Near East, and not just of the V88 variety, so it's possible there was some in the Hyksos, although I doubt it was M269. Still, ancient dna can surprise, so I never say never.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

When people talk about the back-migration of Eurasians into Africa they can be talking about the very early movement of the "E" lineages back to Africa (if the researcher thinks early forms of "E" might have been in Arabia or in the Levant, for example), or the movement of R1b herders (V88) down into Africa, or perhaps the "J" lineages.

 

[Hauteville]

Weren't the early Egyptians of Berber caucasoid stock?

 

[Sile]

Why is that Angela? Just out of curiosity the dna analises of Ramses is not conclusive?



Thats correct but that would be the V88 type. Do we have a time when R1b migrated back to Africa? If not mistaken the re migration took place through Iberia. Would it have spread back to North Africa by that time?. I know some of the R1b V88 is present in North Africa in current populations

Haplogroup R1b1c-V88 has a Eurasian origin and entered Northeast Africa from the Near East. The number of sublineages(L=5) stemming from R1b1c-V88 indicates an expansion.

When the J1 and R1b1c-V88 expansions are compared, two differences become apparent. (i)Their geographic signature differs. The former spreads in the circum-Saharan region and the Arabian Peninsula, whereas the latter describes a migration path via the Levant to the region of present-day northern Cameroon (Cruciani et al.2010). (ii) Their phylogenetic signature is different.The attribution of a single V88 mutation to theR1b1c migration differs from the expected participation of many sublineages in the J1migration. Although the confidence interval of both expansions overlaps, the R1b1c migration may have happened slightly before the J1migration.


from post#18

 

[bicicleur 2]

Haplogroup R1b1c-V88 has a Eurasian origin and entered Northeast Africa from the Near East. The number of sublineages(L=5) stemming from R1b1c-V88 indicates an expansion.

When the J1 and R1b1c-V88 expansions are compared, two differences become apparent. (i)Their geographic signature differs. The former spreads in the circum-Saharan region and the Arabian Peninsula, whereas the latter describes a migration path via the Levant to the region of present-day northern Cameroon (Cruciani et al.2010). (ii) Their phylogenetic signature is different.The attribution of a single V88 mutation to theR1b1c migration differs from the expected participation of many sublineages in the J1migration. Although the confidence interval of both expansions overlaps, the R1b1c migration may have happened slightly before the J1migration.


from post#18

IMO the Arabic expansion of J1-P58 happened as late as 2500 BC
the main branch was a colonisation of Yemen by people from the Levant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history_of_Yemen#Archaeology_and_the_prehistory_of_Yemen

later on they also colonised parts of Ethiopia to control the trade in frankincense and myrhe
it was the era of the queen of Sheba

 

[Maleth]

So far as I know the yDna analysis of Ramses is correct, which means he was indeed, as you pointed out, E1b1a. However, he was from the 20th Dynasty (his rule started in 1186 BC). Expredel stated that Tutankhamen, who was from the 18th dynasty (he ruled from 1361 to 1352 BC), was yDna R1b M269, and he was assuming, I believe, that as Tut was from an earlier dynasty than Ramses, his R1b lineage is the original lineage of the Pharaohs of Egypt.

Thats understandable. One need to look at the time line which is quite a long one. It seems often that the lineage is fragmented too unlike European Royal heraldry which seems more consistent (as far as we know) The first 'Pharaoh who united lower with upper Egypt looks pretty much sub sub Saharan in my opinion, even though one cannot judge by looks and we also not taking Mtdna in consideration.

The only so called "proof" that Tut was R1b is that during a presentation about the testing of Tut's remains a screen shot of yDna results was shown when they were describing the testing, and when the values from that screen shot were run through a predictor it's claimed that the values are those of someone who is R1b. That may in fact be the case, but we don't know if the screen shot was of a default result, perhaps that of one of the scientists, and was just used for demonstration purposes, or if it was indeed a screen shot of Tutankhamen's results.

.

According to lifescience the issue is used as a publicity stunt

Anyway, my point was that even if Tutankhamen was R1b, that would not be any proof that all the prior Egyptian dynasties were R1b, much less M269.

indeed and while everything is possible, there are other factors to take in consideration including the history and haplogroup percentages in the area. On the other hand the area has always seem to be a mixed bag of haplogroups and it does not seem to differ much from modern populations. The current highest HG are E-78 and J at 20% each G's and R's (R1a and b) are some 10% each. Maybe deeper classification would help.

 

[Maleth]

Haplogroup R1b1c-V88 has a Eurasian origin and entered Northeast Africa from the Near East. The number of sublineages(L=5) stemming from R1b1c-V88 indicates an expansion.

When the J1 and R1b1c-V88 expansions are compared, two differences become apparent. (i)Their geographic signature differs. The former spreads in the circum-Saharan region and the Arabian Peninsula, whereas the latter describes a migration path via the Levant to the region of present-day northern Cameroon (Cruciani et al.2010). (ii) Their phylogenetic signature is different.The attribution of a single V88 mutation to theR1b1c migration differs from the expected participation of many sublineages in the J1migration. Although the confidence interval of both expansions overlaps, the R1b1c migration may have happened slightly before the J1migration.


from post#18

Interesting. Do we have a time when these expansions happen? Wiki says this about R-v88 R1b1c (R-V88)[edit]

R1b1c (formerly R1b1a) is defined by the presence of SNP marker V88, the discovery of which was announced in 2010 by Cruciani et al.^[23] The V88 group in Africa may be linked with Chadic languages and an Iberian origin.^[67] Apart from individuals in southern Europe and Western Asia, the majority of R-V88 was found in northern and central Africa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1c_.28R-V88.29

 

[Maleth]

Weren't the early Egyptians of Berber caucasoid stock?

Blood typing and DNA sampling on ancient Egyptian mummies is scant; however, blood typing of dynastic mummies found ABO frequencies to be most similar to modern Egyptians,^[14] and some also to NorthernHaratin populations. ABO blood group distribution shows that the Egyptians form a sister group to North African populations, including Berbers, Nubians and Canary Islanders.^[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt