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Thread: Messapian peoples : Possible Illyrian-E-V13 connection ?

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    Messapian peoples : Possible Illyrian-E-V13 connection ?

    Hello to all!
    First of all i'm new to this forum, but only in terms of creating an account, cause i follow it from a long time. And this is my very first post here.

    I was reading about the tribes inhabiting in Italy before the Roman expansion. The Messapians were a group which settled in the heel of the pennisula (the region which corresponds to modern Apulia), and according to scholars had Illyrian origin.


    The Illyrian tribes in south-eastern Italy spoke a language belonging to the Messapian group. This was an Indo-European branch that was found in Italy alone, but which may have been related to one of the Illyrian languages. It was spoken only by the Iapyges and their three sub-groups, the Dauni, Messapii, and Peucetii. Approximately three hundred inscriptions survive which can be dated to the period between the sixth and first centuries BC, after which the Illyrian tribes were submerged by Latin culture and language.

    The Messapians kept close ties with hellenic peoples. Especially with Pyrrhus of Epirus, which they supported in his conquest of Syracuse in 277 BC. They were conquered by Rome in 267/266 BC, and were submerged gradually by Latin culture.

    The frequencies in modern Apulia are :
    I1 = 2.5% I2b = 1% I2a = 3.5% R1a = 3% R1b= 27.5% G = 12% J2 = 22% J1 = 3% E1b1b = 19% T = 1.5%

    (Also see specific maps of E-V13 and J2b, i'm not allowed to post links)

    Judging from the frequencies in ''the heel of Italy'' or modern Apulia and the distribution of subclades in the region :
    I1 was most likely brought by the Normans while most of R1b is from the Romans. The Greeks might have brought J2, but they brought mostly J2a in the region, not J2b. The map of J2 correlates well with the Greek-speaking regions in South Italy pre-Roman conquest. The specific J2b not that much.

    The distribution of haplogroups and subclades suggest that E-V13 and J2b might had been the major haplogroups of the Messapians. And if so, it would confirm specific Illyrian tribes belonging mostly to these haplogroups.
    It should be noted the low frequence of I2a in the region, which does contradict the common belief that Illyrians were mostly I2a belonging peoples. Also it's not clear if the subclades belong to I2a1a (Sardinian branch) or I2a1b (Dinaric branch).

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    E-V13 is not particularly unusual in the central and eastern regions of the Mediterranean Basin, it's definitely well spread, also in areas far from Albania and Apulia. I don't know if a direct link between Illyrians and Messapians via haplogroup is actually possible...Maybe yes, maybe not.
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    I agree E-V13 is pretty spread. But the lack of I2a, the drastic disruption of the J2b spreading between the heel and other parts of south Italy (former Greek settlements), with the peak of J2b being reached in the heel, along with Apulia being the 3rd region in Italy with most E-V13, make too many factors to make me think that the Messapians were primarily E1b1b-V13 peoples along with J2b subclades.

    The spreading of E-V13+J2b shows a correlative nature in the Balkans, and it maintains its nature even in Apulia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilixir View Post
    Hello to all!
    First of all i'm new to this forum, but only in terms of creating an account, cause i follow it from a long time. And this is my very first post here.

    I was reading about the tribes inhabiting in Italy before the Roman expansion. The Messapians were a group which settled in the heel of the pennisula (the region which corresponds to modern Apulia), and according to scholars had Illyrian origin.


    The Illyrian tribes in south-eastern Italy spoke a language belonging to the Messapian group. This was an Indo-European branch that was found in Italy alone, but which may have been related to one of the Illyrian languages. It was spoken only by the Iapyges and their three sub-groups, the Dauni, Messapii, and Peucetii. Approximately three hundred inscriptions survive which can be dated to the period between the sixth and first centuries BC, after which the Illyrian tribes were submerged by Latin culture and language.

    The Messapians kept close ties with hellenic peoples. Especially with Pyrrhus of Epirus, which they supported in his conquest of Syracuse in 277 BC. They were conquered by Rome in 267/266 BC, and were submerged gradually by Latin culture.

    The frequencies in modern Apulia are :
    I1 = 2.5% I2b = 1% I2a = 3.5% R1a = 3% R1b= 27.5% G = 12% J2 = 22% J1 = 3% E1b1b = 19% T = 1.5%

    (Also see specific maps of E-V13 and J2b, i'm not allowed to post links)

    Judging from the frequencies in ''the heel of Italy'' or modern Apulia and the distribution of subclades in the region :
    I1 was most likely brought by the Normans while most of R1b is from the Romans. The Greeks might have brought J2, but they brought mostly J2a in the region, not J2b. The map of J2 correlates well with the Greek-speaking regions in South Italy pre-Roman conquest. The specific J2b not that much.

    The distribution of haplogroups and subclades suggest that E-V13 and J2b might had been the major haplogroups of the Messapians. And if so, it would confirm specific Illyrian tribes belonging mostly to these haplogroups.
    It should be noted the low frequence of I2a in the region, which does contradict the common belief that Illyrians were mostly I2a belonging peoples. Also it's not clear if the subclades belong to I2a1a (Sardinian branch) or I2a1b (Dinaric branch).
    where they Illyrian or where they a northern Epirote people who continued to trade and communicate and also seek aid from the Epirotes. They turned to Phyrrhus to help them fight the Romans, they did not turn to anyone else

    They lack the common theory of the "illyrian/bosnian" marker of I2. But have the common markers of Tosks( northern Epirote people ) and also NW greek people.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilixir View Post
    Hello to all!
    First of all i'm new to this forum, but only in terms of creating an account, cause i follow it from a long time. And this is my very first post here.

    I was reading about the tribes inhabiting in Italy before the Roman expansion. The Messapians were a group which settled in the heel of the pennisula (the region which corresponds to modern Apulia), and according to scholars had Illyrian origin.


    The Illyrian tribes in south-eastern Italy spoke a language belonging to the Messapian group. This was an Indo-European branch that was found in Italy alone, but which may have been related to one of the Illyrian languages. It was spoken only by the Iapyges and their three sub-groups, the Dauni, Messapii, and Peucetii. Approximately three hundred inscriptions survive which can be dated to the period between the sixth and first centuries BC, after which the Illyrian tribes were submerged by Latin culture and language.

    The Messapians kept close ties with hellenic peoples. Especially with Pyrrhus of Epirus, which they supported in his conquest of Syracuse in 277 BC. They were conquered by Rome in 267/266 BC, and were submerged gradually by Latin culture.

    The frequencies in modern Apulia are :
    I1 = 2.5% I2b = 1% I2a = 3.5% R1a = 3% R1b= 27.5% G = 12% J2 = 22% J1 = 3% E1b1b = 19% T = 1.5%

    (Also see specific maps of E-V13 and J2b, i'm not allowed to post links)

    Judging from the frequencies in ''the heel of Italy'' or modern Apulia and the distribution of subclades in the region :
    I1 was most likely brought by the Normans while most of R1b is from the Romans. The Greeks might have brought J2, but they brought mostly J2a in the region, not J2b. The map of J2 correlates well with the Greek-speaking regions in South Italy pre-Roman conquest. The specific J2b not that much.

    The distribution of haplogroups and subclades suggest that E-V13 and J2b might had been the major haplogroups of the Messapians. And if so, it would confirm specific Illyrian tribes belonging mostly to these haplogroups.
    It should be noted the low frequence of I2a in the region, which does contradict the common belief that Illyrians were mostly I2a belonging peoples. Also it's not clear if the subclades belong to I2a1a (Sardinian branch) or I2a1b (Dinaric branch).
    how sure you are that I1 was brought from Normands?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    where they Illyrian or where they a northern Epirote people who continued to trade and communicate and also seek aid from the Epirotes. They turned to Phyrrhus to help them fight the Romans, they did not turn to anyone else

    They lack the common theory of the "illyrian/bosnian" marker of I2. But have the common markers of Tosks( northern Epirote people ) and also NW greek people.
    According to scholars they spoke a branch of Illyrian languages. The alliance with Pyrrhus could had been as a result of both parts having a common enemy (The Romans), but prior to that they weren't allies with the Epirotes. For example, in 333-330 BC, King Alexander I of Epirus was called by the Tarantines and fought against the Messapians. He was victorious. In 356 BC Messapians allied with Lucans, which were enemies of the Tarantines (Dorian tribes) and other Greeks of ''Magna Graecia''. Tarantines called Sparta's king Archìdamos III to help them in battle. He lost his life in the Messapian city of Manduria, killed by Messapians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    how sure you are that I1 was brought from Normands?
    This is from Eupedia's page about the Genetic origin of Italy :

    The Normans left a much clearer print on Sicily and southern Italy. Originally Vikings from Denmark, the Normans were granted a duchy by the King of France in 911. From 999, invited by the Prince of Salerno, Norman knights started serving as mercenaries for the Lombards against the Byzantines. They quickly acquired counties and duchies of their own and set about to unify all southern Italy under their rule. In 1061 they invaded Sicily, which was completely conquered in 1091. The Norman Kingdom of Sicily was created in 1130, with Palermo as capital, and would last until the 19th century. Nowadays it is in north-west Sicily, around Palermo and Trapani, that Norman Y-DNA is the most common, with 8 to 15% of the lineages belonging to haplogroup I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilixir View Post
    According to scholars they spoke a branch of Illyrian languages. The alliance with Pyrrhus could had been as a result of both parts having a common enemy (The Romans), but prior to that they weren't allies with the Epirotes. For example, in 333-330 BC, King Alexander I of Epirus was called by the Tarantines and fought against the Messapians. He was victorious. In 356 BC Messapians allied with Lucans, which were enemies of the Tarantines (Dorian tribes) and other Greeks of ''Magna Graecia''. Tarantines called Sparta's king Archìdamos III to help them in battle. He lost his life in the Messapian city of Manduria, killed by Messapians.
    yes, which language represents in similarity with the Iapodes tribe of illyrian who resided on the modern inland borders of slovenia and croatia. They must have got a sea trip via their neighbours the Liburnian illyrians.

    The liburnians did rule Corfu at the time , but lost it too the Greek Corinthians.

    Iapydes

    The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes, Giapidi) [Greek,"Ιάποδες"] were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula. The first written mention of an Illyrian tribe Iapydes by Hecataeus of Miletus is from early Greek navigators from the 6th century BC.

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    not only the Messapi but also the Kalabri (galabri) came from Dardania central Balkan even the Etruri its said that came from west Asia minor Phrygia and they came also from central Balkan as Bryges , even Dardanians were living in Asia minor 'Troy' where the Etruri and Ascanius (Albani) and Brutus (Albion) and the Franks came from , there must be a lot of E-v13's in this continent.

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