101 Ancient Eurasian Genomes Available Online

[Tomenable]

Corded Ware seems to be related to R1a folk linked to Satem language branches

You cannot link DNA to Satem, because Satemization took place several times, and it was a very simple sound change. Besides, there is no absolute correlation between R1a and Satem and R1b and Kentum, since the Tocharians were Kentum and R1a (11 out of 12 samples of Tocharian Mummies from the Tarim basin were R1a, one was K*) and the Armenians are Satem but mostly R1b. Also Luvian branch of Anatolian languages was Satem, but everything indicates that the Luvians were mostly R1b haplotype 35 rather than R1a. About Satemization (posted by a linguist on another forum):

"(...) Satemization happened at least twice independently from each other, and maybe more times. The division of Proto-Anatolian languages into Kentum Hittite plus Palaic languages, and Satem Luvian and its descendant languages, had to be independent from the rest of IE. The whole process of Satemization is trivial, by the way, there are many examples for evolution of soft k/g towards s/z. All three Slavic palatalizations, Kashubian pronounciation, for example -szczi instead of -ski, Romance evolution of soft k into cz and c (this is how Latin kentum resulted in French sę), examples in Germanic (English, Swedish), etc. This linguistic mechanism is very common, it could take place repeatedly in multiple times and places. (...)"

 

[Sile]

I don't know was this table posted here?.

what do you mean?

baRem = Remendel of which 66% are I2 and 33% are I2a ..............ydna

baHu = 50% is I2, 25% is G2a and 25% is I2a

baRem for MtDNa = 33% each for H2, J1 and X2


is this what you are after?

 

[Tomenable]

bronze age Polish R1a may be different from Slavic or present day Polish R1a

Already that R1a from that circa 3100 years old Lusatian Culture's site in East Germany (Halberstadt) was Z280 - the same major subclade as 40%-60% of present-day Polish R1a. I do not expect to find some exotic (and very rare nowadays - for example L664 is mostly North-West European, but quite rare) branches. Most of R1a in Europe today belongs to either Z280 or M458, both of which are abundant in Poles (in roughly equal proportions). Of course you can argue that "truly Slavic is only M558, not M458" - but M558 is very young (still older than the alleged Slavic replacement of the allegedly Non-Slavic populations that allegedly inhabited those areas before the alleged Slavs, though) and is under M458 anyway.

Moreover, M458* and M558 always go in pairs - in Poles as well both of these subclades are common, not just M558.

If you check Y-DNA of Cretans then about 10% of them are R1a and part of this is M458, the other part M558. There was some Slavic settlement on Crete in the Middle Ages according to written records. But part of it could as well be older. M458 is old enough that some of it could come to Greece already with Achaeans, but Slavs could bring yet more of it later.

Anyway I'm not necessarily insisting on linguistic continuity - languages may change even without sweeping migrations.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Ok, so now some speculations that I feel pretty confident.

Corded Ware seems to be related to R1a folk linked to Satem language branches (Baltic, Slavic, Indian, Iranian). Baltic linguists had been speculating about (proto) Balts, Slavs, Indo-Iranians living together in forest zone (and touching Finno-Ugric tribes) since ages, based on certain linguistic, cultural and mythological cross-paralels. Nice to see dna proving or at least not contradicting that.

Of course when R1a proto-Indo-Iranians left for their journey South they admixed with many local folks before arriving to India/Iran. But they took language, culture and R1a impulse with them. Same is true for (modern) Balts who mixed with coastal Baltic natives and early Corded pioneers to create modern Balts.


A lot of things where I dont even a have clue now. First, origins of language and developments before Corded. What is the role of Cucuteni, EHG, Caucasus in creation of PIE? Did it came from East and mixed with NW Caucasian as promoted by Kourtland in his Indo-Uralic?

Many swords shall be broken until we get to where it came from I like the idea of Yamna culture being a cocktail of many things (farmers, hunters, Caucasians, EHG, and so on). Message it gives is great and modern - Diversity is Power!

Exchange of cultures, ideas and lifestyles that produced a new global impulse.

p.s.
Another quote that I met on one of many forums that I enjoyed (originally from Anthony?), was that IE expansion seems to be rather peaceful and gradual and not Hunn like horde. This fits to what and how I see developments in Baltic.

I don't agree about diversity

There seems to be a lot of cultural and technological (metallurgy) input from different cultures, that was absorbed by just one or few small tribes.
But the genetic picture of BA people is not diverse at all : they are R1a and R1b mixed with a little I2 (from the western Pontic Steppe or from Cucuteni) and a little Q1a (from Karasuk culture west of Altai Mts)

Same happens with the onset of the iron age. That seems to be J2 exclusively.

 

[arvistro]

You cannot link DNA to Satem, because Satemization took place several times, and it was a very simple sound change. Besides, there is no absolute correlation between R1a and Satem and R1b and Kentum, since the Tocharians were Kentum and R1a (11 out of 12 samples of Tocharian Mummies from the Tarim basin were R1a, one was K*) and Armenians are Satem but mostly R1b. Also Luvian branch of Anatolian languages was Satem, but everything indicates that the Luvians were mostly R1b haplotype 35 rather than R1a. About Satemization (posted by a linguist on another forum):

"(...) Satemization happened at least twice independently from each other, and maybe more times. The division of Proto-Anatolian languages into Kentum Hittite plus Palaic languages, and Satem Luvian and its descendant languages, had to be independent from the rest of IE. The whole process of Satemization is trivial, by the way, there are many examples for evolution of soft k/g towards s/z. All three Slavic palatalizations, Kashubian pronounciation, for example -szczi instead of -ski, Romance evolution of soft k into cz and c (this is how Latin kentum resulted in French sę), examples in Germanic (English, Swedish), etc. This linguistic mechanism is very common, it could take place repeatedly in multiple times and places. (...)"

Ok, replace Satem with Balto-Slavo-Indo-Iranian in my text.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Already that R1a from the Lusatian Culture's site in East Germany (Halberstadt) was Z280 - the same as 40%-60% of modern Polish R1a. I do not expect to find some exotic (and very rare nowadays - for example L664 is mostly North-West European, but very rare) branches. Most of R1a in Europe today belongs to either Z280 or M458, both of which are abundant in Poles (in roughly equal proportions). Of course you can argue that "truly Slavic is only M558, not M458" - but M558 is very young, and is under M458 anyway.

Moreover, M458* and M558 always go in pairs - in Poles as well both of these subclades are common, not just M558.

If you check Y-DNA of Cretans then about 10% of them are R1a and half of this is M458, the other half M558. There was Slavic settlement on Crete in the Middle Ages according to written records, but part of it could as well be older.

I suspected L664 was much wider spread before Slavic settlement, but you're right, Z280 was detected, and L664 not.

 

[bicicleur 2]

You cannot link DNA to Satem, because Satemization took place several times, and it was a very simple sound change. Besides, there is no absolute correlation between R1a and Satem and R1b and Kentum, since the Tocharians were Kentum and R1a (11 out of 12 samples of Tocharian Mummies from the Tarim basin were R1a, one was K*) and Armenians are Satem but mostly R1b. Also Luvian branch of Anatolian languages was Satem, but everything indicates that the Luvians were mostly R1b haplotype 35 rather than R1a. About Satemization (posted by a linguist on another forum):

"(...) Satemization happened at least twice independently from each other, and maybe more times. The division of Proto-Anatolian languages into Kentum Hittite plus Palaic languages, and Satem Luvian and its descendant languages, had to be independent from the rest of IE. The whole process of Satemization is trivial, by the way, there are many examples for evolution of soft k/g towards s/z. All three Slavic palatalizations, Kashubian pronounciation, for example -szczi instead of -ski, Romance evolution of soft k into cz and c (this is how Latin kentum resulted in French sę), examples in Germanic (English, Swedish), etc. This linguistic mechanism is very common, it could take place repeatedly in multiple times and places. (...)"

I allready told many times here, there is no proof whatsoever the R1a Tarim mummies are Tocharian.
They are all less then 4000 years old and could very well be part of the Indo-Iranian expansion.
The area were Tocharian writing was found is today still rich in R1b (Uyghurs in the western part of the Tarim basin)

 

[arvistro]

I don't agree about diversity

There seems to be a lot of cultural and technological (metallurgy) input from different cultures, that was absorbed by just one or few small tribes.
But the genetic picture of BA people is not diverse at all : they are R1a and R1b mixed with a little I2 (from the western Pontic Steppe or from Cucuteni) and a little Q1a (from Karasuk culture west of Altai Mts)

Same happens with the onset of the iron age. That seems to be J2 exclusively.

I agree that Outcome was not as diverse as Inputs

 

[Tomenable]

allready told many times here, there is no proof whatsoever the R1a Tarim mummies are Tocharian.

This is the only IE ancient DNA and the only Caucasoid mummies that we have from that region, so far.

In later burials from the Tarim Basin, mummies look increasingly Mongoloid because they mixed with the locals.

Are you suggesting that Tocharian language was brought into the region by that Mongoloid element?

They are all less then 4000 years old and could very well be part of the Indo-Iranian expansion.

It is commonly accepted that the material culture of the Tocharians descended from the Afanasievo Culture.

This new study (discussed in this thread) IIRC has also samples from Afanasievo - ALL of them seem to be R1a.

Tocharian language is very old - it split from the PIE dialect continuum soon after Anatolian, before Satemization.

If you think that the Tarim Mummies - who had lived in the same area where MUCH LATER Tocharian language was used in writing (4000 years ago they were still illiterate) - were not Tocharian-speakers, then it means that you suggest that the Tocharians actually came there AFTER the Iranians, not that they came there before the Iranians.

Where were the Tocharians hiding 4000 years ago in that "ocean of Iranian peoples", if not in the Tarim Basin?

Everything indicates that they had to be there before the Iranians, even though their language is not attested that early on, because they simply did not have a written language at that time - there were still illiterate at that time, only later they got an alphabet. And the Tarim Mummies are the very earliest Caucasoid mummies from that area.

Before the Tarim Mummies the area was Mongoloid, and after the Tarim Mummies it was mixed race. The only "quite pure" Caucasoids (but not entirely pure, because they already had C4 mtDNA, indicating intermarriage of Indo-European males with local North-East Asian females) were the Tarim Mummies. Please read about this - AFAIK all Xinjiang burials younger than the Mummies of Ürümchi, contain increasingly more and more Mongoloid-looking people.

I already told you, that Satemization was a very trivial sound change - not a change in DNA.

The area were Tocharian writing was found is today still rich in R1b (Uyghurs in the western part of the Tarim basin)

Indo-European Tajiks in the western part of the Tarim Basin are 45% R1a and over 18% J. And they actually speak Indo-European (yes, Iranian, but at least not Turkic), unlike Uyghurs who speak Turkic - and indeed some subclades of R1b could be "originally" Turkic. R1b-M478 doesn't look very Indo-European, neither does R1b-V88.

Tajik Y-DNA (44.7% R1a and 18.4% J): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...orth_Asian_populations#cite_ref-Wells2001_5-5

Tajiks of western China (they also look more Caucasoid than Uyghurs, who have more mixed looks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAQpdNEWpng

BTW - Tajiks is an "umbrella term" that encompasses several IE-speaking groups, including the Sarikoli:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarikoli_language

 

[Alan]

there is no J2 whatsoever found amognst the bronze age individuals, Indo-Iranain seems to be exclusively R1
iron age Scythian J2 seems very likely
ultimately iron age J2 was replaced by Turkic and Mongolian N1c and C2 (no skelletons analysed yet)

There is J2 found among Bronze Age Hungarian. J2 appears not earlier than Bronze Age.

Scythians are an Iron Age phenomenon, Therefore Bronze Age shouldn't play much role for my observation in the previous post.
Only some Bronze Age Andronovo samples have been tested so far. But Indo_Iranians is not equal to Andronovo. Proto Indo_Iranians = Andronovo+BMAC.

Also J2 is far too uniformly found among all Indo_Iranian speakers therefore I have hard time accepting the theory that J2 is "introductive" rather than ancestral part of it.

 

[arvistro]

Maybe J2 is BMAC then?

 

[Alan]

the first invasion from the steppe into the Balkans, supposedly IE (Anatolian language?) was 4300-3800 BC, that was before Maykop (3700-3000 BC)

No single evidence to back that up. Only a hypothesis which I strictly doubt. Anatolian branch rather arrived through the (North?)East.

 

[Alan]

Maybe J2 is BMAC then?

possibility is there. But than why J2a in Bronze Age Hungary in combination with first signs of ANE?

We need more samplings.

 

[Tomenable]

It is commonly accepted that the material culture of the Tocharians descended from the Afanasievo Culture.

This new study (discussed in this thread) IIRC has also samples from Afanasievo - ALL of them seem to be R1a.

Sorry, this 100% R1a is apparently not Afanesevo culture, but Bronze Age Afontova Gora:

(I thought that baAfGo stands for "Afanasievo something", as I've never heard about Afontova Gora before):

Do they also have Y-DNA samples from Afanasevo, though? I think I've seen some information, that they do.

 

[Tomenable]

The "R1" was probably not able to be tested for an R1a or R1b SNP. It doesn't mean it's R1*.

"Probably" - but on what basis is this claim ???

12 Tarim Mummies had 11 R1a and 1 K*, so maybe the Corded Ware had - apart from R1a - also R1*.

 

[Tomenable]

maybe even some bronze age Polish R1b is yet to be found

I wouldn't be surprised.

Modern Poles have 12-18% R1b and a large part of this is R1b1b2a*-L23(xL51), which rare among Germans.

Most of the rest of Polish R1b is U106 and U152 - see Myres 2010 (Excel file with details in the link):

http://www.speedyshare.com/fXR5N/R1b1b2-excellent-sub-haplogroup-study-Myres-2010.xls

Percent of R1b1b2a*-L23(xL51) is violet color (as many as 5,44% of modern Poles have it according to Myres). By contrast less than one percent of Germans have this branch, so it did not come to Poland with Germans:

 

[Tomenable]

Czechoslovakian R1b - unlike German R1b - also has a large share of R1b1b2a*-L23(xL51):

From: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?21940-R1b-pie-charts&p=313496&viewfull=1#post313496

Myres 2010: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html

 

[Silesian]

we should know the subclades of R1a
bronze age Polish R1a may be different from Slavic or present day Polish R1a
maybe even some bronze age Polish R1b is yet to be found

Polish L23[51] R1b is just starting to get defined into various branches. For example R1b-9219/7822 is found among Ossets/Jászság population- https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jaszsag/about perhaps as far away as Pakistan. Here are a few snapshots.

Poland


Ossetian/Jász


East


Pakistan



Balkans

 

[bicicleur 2]

Sorry, this 100% R1a is apparently not Afanesevo culture, but Bronze Age Afontova Gora:

(I thought that baAfGo stands for "Afanasievo something", as I've never heard about Afontova Gora before):

Do they also have Y-DNA samples from Afanasevo, though? I think I've seen some information, that they do.

according to the list Fire Haired posted, all Afanasievo samples were female

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...dCiwrveIy-OGO2qOklwfsayW8/edit#gid=1004304005

have a look at this map made by Maciamo :

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png

I think this map shows the pockets where the Afanasievo did hide for the Indo-Iranian invasion.
Notice there is a large pocket in the western Tarim Basin, that is the area where Tocharian writings were found, the Tarim mummies were found in the eastern Tarim Basin.

Also have a look here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majiayao_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qijia_culture

these cultures existed before Indo-Iranians, IMO the Tochars had contact through Tarim Basin with NW China.

Check this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Xiajiadian_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Xiajiadian_culture

IMO the Jinggouzi on the Mongolian steppe got cattle from the Tochars

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23249313

The Jinggouzi were haplogroup C2e and invaded northern China 3000 BC

The Tochars must have had a tremendous influence over a very large area, but genetically they dissapeared into a few pockets.

They were mostly R1b.
Todays presence of R1a in Asia is almost all Z93 which is to young to be Tochar.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Polish L23[51] R1b is just starting to get defined into various branches. For example R1b-9219/7822 is found among Ossets/Jászság population- https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jaszsag/about perhaps as far away as Pakistan. Here are a few snapshots.

Poland
View attachment 7286

Ossetian/Jász
View attachment 7287

East
View attachment 7288

Pakistan

View attachment 7289

Balkans

View attachment 7290

it seems a lot is left to be discovered about IE and about R1a/R1b
also check post #76 here above