101 Ancient Eurasian Genomes Available Online

[Tomenable]

Todays presence of R1a in Asia is almost all Z93 which is to young to be Tochar.

But Tarim Mummies were not Z93 - all 11 males were positive for M198 but negative for Z93.

Probably they were under M417, maybe the paragroup M417* itself.

 

[bicicleur 2]

No single evidence to back that up. Only a hypothesis which I strictly doubt. Anatolian branch rather arrived through the (North?)East.

4300-3800 BC lifestyle in Balkans changed completely, population became less dense and shifted from agriculture to husbandry ; hilltop settlements appeared, as well as steppe cultural elements
there are indications climate had shifted, which struck agriculture ; but this climate shift could also have triggered migration from the steppe
I admit the picture is not clear.
Anatolian is estimated 6000 years old, but the only recorded writings are less then 4000 years old. What happened in between is not sure.
You cllaim Anatolian branch rather arrived through the (North?)East. Do you have any proof?

 

[bicicleur 2]

But Tarim Mummies were not Z93 - all 11 males were positive for M198 but negative for Z93.

Probably they were under M417, maybe the paragroup M417* itself.

It is possible. I've read the mummies would have been tested for Z93, but I have not seen confirmation of the results yet.
Anyway the fact that there is a lot of R1a in Asia today does not prove Tocharians (IMO Afanasievo) were R1a. There is much more R1b in Asia than R1aZ93-
Todays genetical footprint of Tochars is small.

 

[Angela]

That explains why someone with inside information said Armenians are 30% European H&G. Using modern Bedoins as proxy for ENF is absolut nonsense. They also seem to simply put all UHG ancestry under WHG. Not taking into account that EEF is mostly UHG + Basal Eurasian.



Another contradiction in the paper is, that they say "The Caucasus component in Yamna seems to be of native Steppe origin and doesn't come from the South of the Caucasus". Just to say in another statement. "Yamna is based on Maikop groups who merged with incoming CT people". And from where did those Maikop groups come?

I agree. It seems as if some of the conclusions here don't necessarily flow from the evidence they present or are at times even in contradiction with it, unless I'm not understanding it.

Where did Maykop come from, and more importantly, what were they like? They don't have a Maykop genome.

I'm particularly puzzled by some of the stuff in the admixture analysis. Was it just the same old Admixture Program? It wasn't done like the one based on f4 stats like Haak et al, right?

Did you guys take a look at this?

He has Yamnaya as basically made up of two components, but they were both already present in Malta? No wonder he says nothing came from south of the Caucasus.

Then take a look at the this one:


Half of Yamnaya is now exactly the same as the WHG. The neolithic European farmers are half Bedouin and half WHG (which may or may not be correct). So, when Yamnaya comes into Europe, the WHG goes way up. The "green" Yamnaya portion, which they mean us to believe has been around since Malta, gets halved.

Isn't this just more of Willerslev's thinking that there is continuity of Europeans, or at least northern Europeans, since 20,000-30,000 years ago? He did the same thing in the last paper with which he was associated.


I'm glad we have more ancient dna, and Willerslev's lab may be absolutely great at handling and sequencing ancient dna, but I'm not convinced by some of the things they say.

 

[Angela]

Ok, so now some speculations that I feel pretty confident.

Corded Ware seems to be related to R1a folk linked to Satem language branches (Baltic, Slavic, Indian, Iranian). Baltic linguists had been speculating about (proto) Balts, Slavs, Indo-Iranians living together in forest zone (and touching Finno-Ugric tribes) since ages, based on certain linguistic, cultural and mythological cross-paralels. Nice to see dna proving or at least not contradicting that.

Of course when R1a proto-Indo-Iranians left for their journey South they admixed with many local folks before arriving to India/Iran. But they took language, culture and R1a impulse with them. Same is true for (modern) Balts who mixed with coastal Baltic natives and early Corded pioneers to create modern Balts.


A lot of things where I dont even a have clue now. First, origins of language and developments before Corded. What is the role of Cucuteni, EHG, Caucasus in creation of PIE? Did it came from East and mixed with NW Caucasian as promoted by Kourtland in his Indo-Uralic?

Many swords shall be broken until we get to where it came from I like the idea of Yamna culture being a cocktail of many things (farmers, hunters, Caucasians, EHG, and so on). Message it gives is great and modern - Diversity is Power!

Exchange of cultures, ideas and lifestyles that produced a new global impulse.

p.s.
Another quote that I met on one of many forums that I enjoyed (originally from Anthony?), was that IE expansion seems to be rather peaceful and gradual and not Hunn like horde. This fits to what and how I see developments in Baltic.

Well, I hope so. That's why I was a little disturbed about that quote in the paper about the evidence they found about the butchered family. Was it fifteen of them, something like that?

I sincerely doubt any takeover of territory by one human group at the expense of another human group would ever have been devoid of violence. I have a too poor opinion of human nature to believe that.

 

[epoch]

I like the idea of Yamna culture being a cocktail of many things (farmers, hunters, Caucasians, EHG, and so on). Message it gives is great and modern - Diversity is Power!

Exchange of cultures, ideas and lifestyles that produced a new global impulse.

Please note that that is just as much an agenda as the nationalistic ones that are scolded here so much. It blurs the view just as much, in similar ways.

 

[Angela]

Is it settled that one out of the three ancient Armenian samples was E-M123 and two were L23+?

We need more samples to clarify the route and timing of E-V13, I think, but we're heading in the right direction.

I'm still not sure that the L23+ came to Armenia by way of the Balkans, however. Isn't this too old for the "Armenian" language?

We have a lot of L23 in Italy. I wonder if it came directly from the Balkans, or there was a sweep of L23 across Anatolia as well?

No U-152 anywhere right? Perhaps the best bet is indeed that it came to Italy quite a bit later from Hungary?

 

[Angela]

Please note that that is just as much an agenda as the nationalistic ones that are scolded here so much. It blurs the view just as much, in similar ways.

Indeed, if Willerslev is right, and all of the genetic elements of Yamnaya were around in northern Eurasia since Malta (if I'm interpreting him correctly) then the main contribution of the "southern" regions was all the cultural hallmarks of advanced civilization. As I've said before and as the authors here seem to state, the only contribution of the steppe peoples was the domestication of the horse.

To be fair, of course, innovations were made after that.

 

[Silesian]

it seems a lot is left to be discovered about IE and about R1a/R1b
also check post #76 here above

Some with a little more expertise parsed 2 R1b samples.

RISE397_Kapan_LBA_Armenia L23+ > Y4371/Z8128+ > Z2106+ CTS9219-
RISE555_Stalingrad Quarry_EBA_Russia PF6399/S10+ > CTS7340/Z2107+ > Z2106+

Z2106+ for RISE397_Kapan_LBA_Armenia is interesting. Wonder if he is PF7763+ or Z2109+. Then again he could be negative for both like K2015-GS000018396-Tabas17 (Tabasarans, Dagestan_Makhachkala) is

Also some early results with Eurogenes K7

Yamana green and blue samples R1b-2105

Kit Number: M951285 Iteration: 1000 Delta-Q: 4.795874e-05 Elapsed Time: 21.28 seconds
Population
ANE 35.26%
ASE 4.10%
WHG-UHG 53.76%
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.31%
East_African -
ENF 6.57%

Kit Number: M020637 Iteration: 1000 Delta-Q: 5.830124e-02 Elapsed Time: 15.98 seconds
Population
ANE 34.26%
ASE 4.80%
WHG-UHG 50.78%
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.38%
East_African -
ENF 9.77%

Take with a grain of salt until Eurogenes does a full K7+Andronovo results+Sintashta results.

Sintashta looks like the beginning of the bridge to South Central Asia. It could be modeled as half Yamnaya and half a population that was 27.22 ANE, 12.05 ASE, 33.83 WHG, 23.51 ENF, 2.99 West African. That's like one admixture event away from some modern South Asians. Half this non-Yamnaya-half-of-Sintashta and half Gedrosian component (35 ANE, 9.28 ASE, 55.11 ENF) results in "31.315 ANE, 10.665 ASE, 16.915 WHG, 39.31 ENF, 1.5 West African" which is almost at modern Haryana Jatt (about 3-4% swing in WHG and ASE).

Andronovo results+Sintashta red


Sintashta
30.99% ANE
8.25% ASE
43.05% WHG-UHG
0.05% East_Eurasian
1.84% West_African
0.00% East_African
15.84% ENF

RISE505 Andronovo results in the ancient DNA news thread. Here are the results:
ANE K7
30.01% ANE
8.04% ASE
37.56% WHG-UHG
5.03% East_Eurasian
0.00% West_African
0.00% East_African
19.36% ENF

 

[Alan]

"Probably" - but on what basis is this claim ???

12 Tarim Mummies had 11 R1a and 1 K*, so maybe the Corded Ware had - apart from R1a - also R1*.

If it's R1* than as Fire Head said they probably weren't able to test further, cause if it was R1, they would label it as R1. R1* indicates downstream.

 

[Alan]

4300-3800 BC lifestyle in Balkans changed completely, population became less dense and shifted from agriculture to husbandry ; hilltop settlements appeared, as well as steppe cultural elements
there are indications climate had shifted, which struck agriculture ; but this climate shift could also have triggered migration from the steppe
I admit the picture is not clear.
Anatolian is estimated 6000 years old, but the only recorded writings are less then 4000 years old. What happened in between is not sure.

So this is just an assumption based on vague events which don't really need to have anything to do with the Anatolian branch.

You cllaim Anatolian branch rather arrived through the (North?)East. Do you have any proof?

This is one of the main hypothesis of scientists. I have heard them arriving through the Western Caucasus. Even Maciamo seems to go with that theory as seen on his maps.

 

[Alan]

Isn't this just more of Willerslev's thinking that there is continuity of Europeans, or at least northern Europeans, since 20,000-30,000 years ago? He did the same thing in the last paper with which he was associated.


I'm glad we have more ancient dna, and Willerslev's lab may be absolutely great at handling and sequencing ancient dna, but I'm not convinced by some of the things they say.

I knew the paper would be political when one of the individuals behind it made a statement like "We don't fear our history in contrast to our neighbors".

It seems European "continuity" has reappeared on the scientific table. This paper almost spasmodically tries to hold any "Near Eastern" admixture at bay.
Despite having enough West Asian data, they don't use any population of it for fst comparison with Bronze Age cultures.

the conclusion they come to often contradict themselves.

The paper says the "Caucasus" portion is native Steppe component, than it says the Steppes were populated by Maikop groups. Maikop as by recent papers is based on Uruk and Northwest Iranian techniques and migration. Also known as the "Uruk Migration".

Going by this paper there has been more migration into West and SouthCentral Asia as there was out.

 

[Alan]

I'm still not sure that the L23+ came to Armenia by way of the Balkans, however. Isn't this too old for the "Armenian" language?

It is too old.

 

[Angela]

It is too old.

So, perhaps L23 came south to Armenia early on, but some L23 also went west somehow into Europe. Or, perhaps L23 came earlier through the Balkans with the Anatolian languages, but the coming of the "Armenian" language much later wasn't accompanied by very much genetic change.

Is anyone testing Yamnaya dna from further west on the steppe?

 

[Tomenable]

R1* indicates downstream.

They actually labeled is as R1, I added * in my post. Because R1* indicates R1 paragroup, right?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragroup

 

[Regio X]

Is it settled that one out of the three ancient Armenian samples was E-M123 and two were L23+?

We need more samples to clarify the route and timing of E-V13, I think, but we're heading in the right direction.

I'm still not sure that the L23+ came to Armenia by way of the Balkans, however. Isn't this too old for the "Armenian" language?

We have a lot of L23 in Italy. I wonder if it came directly from the Balkans, or there was a sweep of L23 across Anatolia as well?

No U-152 anywhere right? Perhaps the best bet is indeed that it came to Italy quite a bit later from Hungary?

Coincidentally, I just read an hypothesis on it, in which Maciamo considered, time ago, the possibility of a Trojan origin: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28657-Breakdown-of-R1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

(forget the attached image)

 

[Angela]

Coincidentally, I just read a theory about it, in which Maciamo considered, time ago, the possibility of a Trojan origin: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28657-Breakdown-of-R1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

(forget the attached image)

Maybe the old papers were right and some E1b1b was around in Europe since the Mesolithic, but it was definitely in Europe in the Neolithic (Cardial), and we're now finding it in a Bronze Age Near Eastern setting.

It will be interesting to see if they have gotten yDna from the ancient northwest Anatolian farmer...and what it is, of course. That won't necessarily tell us what was in Troy later, even if the two sites are so close to each other, since yDna can change so quickly, but it will be a start. What I'm also very interested to see is what will show up in the ancient Greeks.

 

[Sile]

They actually labeled is as R1, I added * in my post. Because R1* indicates R1 paragroup, right?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragroup

the * indicates a "dead line" no more mutations

 

[Sile]

I do not know where genetiker finds his markers , but he found a K in Poland as per the paper

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/06/11/y-haplogroups-for-prehistoric-eurasian-genomes/


he most likely means............... Haplogroup K2, also known as K-M526 (formerly known as K(xLT) and macrohaplogroup MNOPS[2]), is a human Y-DNA Haplogroup.


which seems odd as Karafet 2014 states this M526 formed in south-indian to sundaland area

 

[epoch]

Indeed, if Willerslev is right, and all of the genetic elements of Yamnaya were around in northern Eurasia since Malta (if I'm interpreting him correctly) then the main contribution of the "southern" regions was all the cultural hallmarks of advanced civilization. As I've said before and as the authors here seem to state, the only contribution of the steppe peoples was the domestication of the horse.

To be fair, of course, innovations were made after that.

The reason this is done is that we get to verify theories, not to check out who contributed the most. And the very fact that there actually is a window to the past is wildly exciting. But to keep a clear head one needs to rid oneself of *all* believes and ideologies concerning this.

The concept of Indo-European languages coming from migrations from the area proposed by both this paper and Haaks paper is far from new. Linguists have proposed it for decades, for completely different reasons. Archeologists from before the war have proposed it. Only after the war the doubt set in, partly because of backlash against fascist identifying with Aryans. Now we have reasonable evidence this doubt was wrong.