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Thread: Slavic homeland and ethnogenesis

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq View Post
    I think also that Przeworsk culture, which was continuation of Lusatian culture, created by people with R1a1 M458 was inhabited by Proto-Slavs tribes, so Proto-Slavic etymologies of the names of the tribes could be correct. Culture Sukow-Dziedzice is also considered as a continuation of Przeworsk culture.



    As I may have eleborated on earlier in this thread, the Przeworsk culture is not compatible with a Proto-Slavic homeland for several reasons. Notably we do have Przeworsk culture names attested in contemporary Greco-Roman sources.


    With your proposed etymologies, I'd like suggest caution:


    * Lugii could refer to "Ludzie" (People).



    The Slavic word for people is with a "d" (or corresponding dental), as are its cognates in Germanic (e.g. German "Leute" - note that in German, it is shifted further by the upper German consonant shift), where as the Lugians are always spelled with a "g". Its more probable that the name is Celtic in etymology (e.g. "Lugdunum", modern Lyon).


    * Helisii - "Kaliszanie" (People from Kalisz).

    Why should there be a development "h" > "k"? Also, mind you, Ptolemy possibly mentions the town of Kalisz (as "Calisia"), and its spelled with a "k".


    * Aelvaeones - "Opolanie" (People from Opole).

    The same problem, where does the "p" come from?


    * Harii - usually in publications refers to Gothic "harjan" (army), but also Slavic word "harit'" means "to burn".

    You also have modern German "Heer" (army), Norwegian "hær", Swedish "här", etc. The name clearly exhibits the sound shift associated with Grimm's Law, hence it is Germanic.


    * Nahanarvali - "Nadnarwianie" (Over Narew).
    * Manimi - ?
    * Diduni - "Dziadoszanie"
    * Buri - "Bobrzanie" (Over Bóbr) ?
    * Omani - ?
    * Mugilones - "Mogilanie" (People from Mogilno).
    * Zumi, Butones and Sibini probably also have Slavic etymology as "Szumowie", "Butonowie" and "Siwinowie".
    * Corconti - "Karkonoszanie".


    I'd like to point out that we actually know a fair bit about the internal evolution of Proto-Slavic, in particular also the sequence of palatalizations, and the evolution of the vowel system (I described that in a post earlier on this page). It is also noteworthy that in reverse, it seems probable that the Proto-"Slavic" at the time of the Przeworsk culture would have been still very similar to other Balto-Slavic languages (or undifferentiated Proto-Balto-Slavic), and the key sound changes that set the Slavic languages apart occured only during the migration period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq View Post
    I think also that Przeworsk culture, which was continuation of Lusatian culture, created by people with R1a1 M458 was inhabited by Proto-Slavs tribes, so Proto-Slavic etymologies of the names of the tribes could be correct. Culture Sukow-Dziedzice is also considered as a continuation of Przeworsk culture.
    * Lugii could refer to "Ludzie" (People).
    .
    your not mixing these with the Lutici

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici

    These Lutici are with the VELETI who domi9nated the upper vistula river

    They are not related to either Veneti or Venedi

    A lot of slavs mix these Veleti with Venedi ..........2 different ethnic races
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    FRom my point of view, the tribe would Lugii interpreted in this way:
    LUG on slavs language is a forest
    Lug / Lug-ii / Lug-LJi = people who live in the forest.
    The voice of LJ does not exist in Latin or in the Germanic languages, nor is there an appropriate letter in the alphabet for flagging this voice so that is probably Latin enumerators had to improvise when writing the name of the tribe of LUGLJI in LUGII. Lugica or Luzhica = small forest. Luzhichki S(e)orbs / Lusatian Sorbs = Sorbs who living in a small forest. In my opinion tribe Lugii has some linguistic connection with the Lusatian Sorbs.

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    I think that ethnicity of Lugii and other tribes of Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures will be known after results of research of fossil Y-DNA, which is scheduled for 2014-2019.
    Most of R1b and I1 haplogroups will confirm Celtic and Germanic origin of tribes (in Poland allochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis) and most of R1a1 - Proto-Slavic origin (in Poland autochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis).
    Genetics think that there will be most of R1a1, which is prevalent in Polish terrains since 3000 BC. Slavic languages are also very archaic form of Ind-European languages.
    Names of tribes from the ancient chronicles could be deformed by authors due to difficulties with notation names in foreign language, especially Slavic For example, in 9th century "Bavarian Geographer" had a lot of problems to describe Slavic tribes in Poland, e.g. "Obodryci" were written as "Osterabtrezi", "Hawelanie" as "Hehfeldi", "Morawianie" as "Marharii", swapping of letter was also common, "Goplanie" were written as "Glopeani". Only half of tribes were deciphered. Probably with ancient Lugii there is the same problem.
    Last edited by qqq; 23-01-16 at 19:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq View Post
    I think that ethnicity of Lugii and other tribes of Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures will be known after results of research of fossil Y-DNA, which is scheduled for 2014-2019.
    Most of R1b and I1 haplogroups will confirm Celtic and Germanic origin of tribes (in Poland allochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis) and most of R1a1 - Proto-Slavic origin (in Poland autochtonic theory of Slavic ethnogenesis).
    Genetics think that there will be most of R1a1, which is prevalent in Polish terrains since 3000 BC.
    Slavic languages are also very archaic form of Ind-European languages.
    Sorry, but that looks to me like a logical fallacy: what you're basically saying there - if I get you right - is that because they lived on the area of modern Poland, and because Poles today speak a Slavic language, therefore they (the Lugii) must have been Slavic, too. By the same logic, the Burgundians (who inhabited the same area as the Lugii, as a matter of fact, according to Ptolemy - they were immediate neighbours) - they must have been Slavic, too. Which, for sure, they weren't (the name element *burg- should be a giveaway).

    As regards the position of the Slavic languages inside European, the general consensus is that they are most closely related with the Baltic languages. And "very archaic" is not the word I would use for the Slavic languages. I would describe Hittite, Mycenaean Greek and Vedic Sanskrit all as 'very archaic', but not the Slavic languages.


    I should also add that Ptolemy lists one of the towns of the Lugians are "Lugidunum", with the element *dūno- (Celtic for 'fort' or 'fortified settlement', see Irish "dún"). Further, there was another ethnic group named the "Lugi" found in Caledonia (modern Scotland).

    Names of tribes from the ancient chronicles could be deformed by authors due to difficulties with notation names in foreign language, especially Slavic For example, in 9th century "Bavarian Geographer" had a lot of problems to describe Slavic tribes in Poland, e.g. "Obodryci" were written as "Osterabtrezi", "Hawelanie" as "Hehfeldi", "Morawianie" as "Marharii", swapping of letter was also common, "Goplanie" were written as "Glopeani". Only half of tribes were deciphered. Probably with ancient Lugii there is the same problem.
    On a theoretical level, I would agree, but I would like to point out two things: first the name "Lugii" is consistently spelled with a "g", second with ancient Greek and Latin, it would be more likely that they would use the letters "s" or "z" (which actually were used for rendering both Satem languages - see Dacian or Indo-Iranian languages - and similar sounds in non-Indo-European languages). Also, the Bavarian Geographer is around 700-800 years removed from Ptolemy and Tacitus (who mention the Lugii).
    Last edited by Taranis; 25-01-16 at 20:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You also have modern German "Heer" (army), Norwegian "hær", Swedish "här", etc. The name clearly exhibits the sound shift associated with Grimm's Law, hence it is Germanic.
    Off topic - a cognate to Latvian karš (war), karavīrs (war man)?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Genetic studies on conquest-period Hungarians and modern Hungarians:

    Tömöry: http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088...isek-angol.pdf

    Csányi et al.: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...440.x/abstract

    Szécsényi-Nagy: http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf

    Found no genetic continuity between original Hungarians and modern Hungarians (for example if you check the last link, then in Table 8. on page 137 you can see that continuity of informative haplotypes between a sample of 25 conquest-era Hungarians and 284 modern Hungarians amounts to... zero percent).

    =======================================

    By contrast, genetic studies on Przeworska and Wielbark DID find continuity of informative haplotypes between those populations and modern Poles - stronger than with any other modern population. So, modern Poles are more "Przeworskian and Wielbarkian" than modern Hungarians are Hungarian (!):

    Juras Polish: https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bits...0doktorska.pdf

    Juras English: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0110839

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Off topic - a cognate to Latvian karš (war), karavīrs (war man)?
    For sure. You also have Old Irish "cuire" ('army'), Gaulish "corio-", and further Greek "koiranos" (κοιρανος - 'ruler', 'master' or 'commander').

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Genetic studies on conquest-period Hungarians and modern Hungarians:

    Tömöry: http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088...isek-angol.pdf

    Csányi et al.: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...440.x/abstract

    Szécsényi-Nagy: http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf

    Found no genetic continuity between original Hungarians and modern Hungarians (for example if you check the last link, then in Table 8. on page 137 you can see that continuity of informative haplotypes between a sample of 25 conquest-era Hungarians and 284 modern Hungarians amounts to... zero percent).

    =======================================

    By contrast, genetic studies on Przeworska and Wielbark DID find continuity of informative haplotypes between those populations and modern Poles - stronger than with any other modern population. So, modern Poles are more "Przeworskian and Wielbarkian" than modern Hungarians are Hungarian (!):

    Juras Polish: https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bits...0doktorska.pdf

    Juras English: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0110839
    A lot of info in the links above.
    Have they found which modern populations are most similar to those 25 conquest-era Hungarians?

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    Orion constellation and Svetovid in Slavic mythology;
    The depiction from the so called Bogomil medieval tombs in Bosnia most probably that of the Slavic deity Svantevit and his remarkable similarities with Orion also known as the hunter;


    Some astrologhists claim that the star above his hand was so big in the year 1054 so this people document it.

    The Rani or Rujani (German: Ranen, Rujanen) were a West Slavic tribe based on the island of Rugia (Rügen) and the southwestern mainland across the Strelasund in what is today northeastern Germany.
    Picture A priest of Svantevit depicted on a stone from Arkona, now in the church of Altenkirchen;

    They most probably worshiped the Orion or it is depicted in this form without the arrow;

    Here is couple and more depictions of the Orion;

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    By the same logic, the Burgundians (who inhabited the same area as the Lugii, as a matter of fact, according to Ptolemy - they were immediate neighbours) - they were must have been Slavic, too. Which, for sure, they weren't (the name element *burg- should be a giveaway).
    Burgundians of course weren't Slavic, but they are identified not with Przeworsk, but Luboszyce culture.
    Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq View Post
    Burgundians of course weren't Slavic, but they are identified not with Przeworsk, but Luboszyce culture.
    Regards.
    and also no other tribes where slavic in Poland, czech or slovakia until after the barbarian invasions of the Western Roman Empire around 400AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    and also no other tribes where slavic in Poland, czech or slovakia until after the barbarian invasions of the Western Roman Empire around 400AD
    Are you sure?
    First, no known source mentions of Slavic invasion into Poland.
    Second, Celtic and Germanic tribes, which left Poland around 400 AD, weren't so numerous group, there is very little percent of haplogroups R1b U106 and I1 in Southern Europe and Northern Africa. (no more than 5-10%)

    Of course, 30 percent of Polish people have nowadays these groups, but some of them can be descendants of German settlers in Medieval ages.
    So I think that proportions in ancient times were similar - around 40% people were Celtic and Germanic and 60% - Proto-Slavic with typical haplogroups R1a1 M458 and Z280. After migrations of Celts and Germans rest of people were slavicized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq View Post
    Are you sure?
    First, no known source mentions of Slavic invasion into Poland.
    Second, Celtic and Germanic tribes, which left Poland around 400 AD, weren't so numerous group, there is very little percent of haplogroups R1b U106 and I1 in Southern Europe and Northern Africa. (no more than 5-10%)

    Of course, 30 percent of Polish people have nowadays these groups, but some of them can be descendants of German settlers in Medieval ages.
    So I think that proportions in ancient times were similar - around 40% people were Celtic and Germanic and 60% - Proto-Slavic with typical haplogroups R1a1 M458 and Z280. After migrations of Celts and Germans rest of people were slavicized.
    The area was infestered with R1b and some mimimum R1a. these Barbarians would have been in majority R1b, I1 and I2

    The slavic people who originate on the modern borders of Ukraine and belarus ( as per recent russian papers) would have benn missed by both the R1b sarmatians and Bastarnae and the later R1a sycthians ..............since slavic is only a non ethnic marker , but essentially a linguistic marker, then the indigenous first slavs would have been originally others names of many minor tribes living in the borders mentioned above

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq View Post
    Are you sure?
    First, no known source mentions of Slavic invasion into Poland.
    Second, Celtic and Germanic tribes, which left Poland around 400 AD, weren't so numerous group, there is very little percent of haplogroups R1b U106 and I1 in Southern Europe and Northern Africa. (no more than 5-10%)
    I think you're making a number of leaps here. First off I don't think that such a solid case can be made certain Y-Haplogroups being "exclusive" for a certain ethnic group (for instance, U-106 seems to have been in Britain before the invasion of the Germanic Anglo-Saxons). Second, its highly doubtful that there were any Celtic speakers left in that area around 400 AD. Celtic languages disappeared from Central Europe between the Gallic Wars and the Marcomannic Wars, and by the onset of the Migration Period, Celtic languages were largely restricted to the British Isles and the atlantic Gaul (what was to become Britanny). Only the Cotini in the western Carpathian region seem to have lasted a bit longer.

    Second, by the start of the Middle Ages, Slavic tribes were found substantially further west than the modern (post-1945) borders of Poland. Instead, Slavic tribes lived on much of territory of former East Germany (east of the rivers Elbe and Saale), and even the eastern parts of modern Schleswig-Holstein (where you have overtly Slavic town names like "Lübeck" and "Grömitz"). In Roman times, these areas were all inhabited by Germanic tribes (including the Langobards and the Suebi for example), so its very clear that some form of migration happened.

    Further, its implausible that the Proto-Slavic homeland was on the area of modern Poland. In particular because in that case, I find it implausible to explain where the other branches of Slavic (East Slavic and South Slavic) come from. For East Slavic, the matter is especially problematic since you then require a migration west-to-east, against the general migration direction of the Migration Period. If you argue that the division of Slavic into its sub-branches (West, East and South) is actually older, then this stands in contrast with the internal linguistic evidence of the Slavic languages (which suggests that the breakup didn't occur before the Migration Period). This is why in my opinion - we should be placing the homeland of the Slavic languages somewhere in the east, either the area of the Chernoles / Zarubintsy cultures, or in the area of the Milograd culture, as the most likely answers. If we exclude the other candidates, what is the most likely correct answer?

    Of course, 30 percent of Polish people have nowadays these groups, but some of them can be descendants of German settlers in Medieval ages.
    So I think that proportions in ancient times were similar - around 40% people were Celtic and Germanic and 60% - Proto-Slavic with typical haplogroups R1a1 M458 and Z280. After migrations of Celts and Germans rest of people were slavicized.
    I would actually agree that whatever was left of the population of the Germanic tribes at the conclusion of the Migration Period (and archaeology says that the population decreased sharply) would have become Slavicized. The linguistic evidence is verymuch in favour of that, as in the Slavic languages, you have in particular words that relate to natural environment, animal-keeping and trade that are borrowed from Germanic.

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    Sardinia was part of the Vandal-Alan North African realm in years 456 to 534 AD.

    Francalacci et al. 2013, tested 1204 Sardinian males for Y-DNA, among them these 21:

    - 6 samples of R1a-M458
    - 5 samples of R1a-Z280
    - 4 samples of R1a-Z93
    - 2 samples of I2a-M423
    - 2 samples of I1-M253
    - 2 samples of R1b-U106

    As for other types of R1b-M269 (apart from 2 samples of U106):

    - 10 samples of R1b-M269*
    - 9 samples of R1b-L23*
    - 3 samples of R1b-L151*
    - 25 samples of R1b-P312*
    - 4 samples of R1b-DF27
    - 2 samples of R1b-L21
    - 2 samples of R1b-L513
    - 128 samples of R1b-U152

    In total 183 samples, including 128 of U152.

    Other haplogroups in that sample of 1204 Sardinians:

    I2a1a - 465
    G2a - 131
    E1b1b1 - 126
    J2 - 98
    J1c - 63
    R1b1c - 29
    T - 28
    I2c - 11
    I2a2a - 10
    R2a1 - 10
    L - 8
    A1b1b2b - 7
    F3 - 7
    E1a1 - 6
    Q1a3c - 1

    In total exactly 1000. Plus 183 + 21 = 1204.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis
    (for instance, U-106 seems to have been in Britain before the invasion of the Germanic Anglo-Saxons).
    I have recently started a thread about this.

    They had a specific subclade of U106. However - one problem is that those two U106 guys were gladiators or soldiers:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post475768

    It is possible that they were of Germanic origin (we know that some Germanics were present already in Roman Britain).

    But it as well possible, that they were Celts.

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    Most possible place of origin of slavs is Baltic region: triangle Bialystok-Kaunas-Minsk.

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    Somehow, I think you forgot about the Baltic presence, didn't you? It is well attested by the archeological and linguistic data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Somehow, I think you forgot about the Baltic presence, didn't you? It is well attested by the archeological and linguistic data.
    Balts and slavs are two (left and right) parts of one fruit: it's incorrect to consider them separately. In fact, it looks like slavs are part of balts, who was under iranian influence for a several centuries.

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