Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: J2a/J2 in Iron Age Altais and Russia

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,521
    Points
    29,905
    Level
    53
    Points: 29,905, Level: 53
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 945
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    4 members found this post helpful.

    J2a in Iron Age Altais and Russia

    More informations

    With some further investigating and team work it has been determined that the haplogroup J2a sample from Iron Age Altai belongs to the LM410 subclade. Some further digging and reading also revealed that this sample is labelled RISE602 in the RISE project and was discovered in the Sary-Bel kurgan. It has been dated to Iron Age (900/700 BC-AD 500/1000 ) and a rough translation from a Russian site has this to say about this burial site. ''So Sarah burial cemetery date back to the beginning of Bel-Hun-Sarmatian time and,
    may belong to the people, which penetrated into the Altai Mountains to the southeast".


    The Bulan-Kobin culture evolved out of the Pazyryk culture which was Scythian. So there seems like there is a good chance then that this J2a-L24 male may have belonged to the Bulan-Kobin culture which had its origins in the earlier Pazyryk culture.
    Apparently the other J2 sample from Iron Age Russia actually also comes from Altai. It comes from a site called Kytmanovo. So this is now two J2 samples from Iron Age Altai. This is getting very interesting. Perhaps it was J2/J2a men that introduced iron technology to this part of the world.

    I said it sooo many times now it is finally proven. J2a beside R1 and R2 and some G, LT is one of the main Haplogroups of the ancient Indo_Iranians.

    A person just needs to look at the overall distribution of Haplogroups among modern Indo_Iranian speakers. J2a is among the most frequent Haplogroups in ALL Indo_Iranian speakers.

    And now my words are final confirmed. Even though oN Eurogenes some people still "doubt it".
    Last edited by Alan; 15-06-15 at 17:38.

  2. #2
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,521
    Points
    29,905
    Level
    53
    Points: 29,905, Level: 53
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 945
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    So we have J2a in Bronze Age Hungary in connection to ANE signals. Now 2xJ2a in Iron Age (900 BC to 700 AD) in Kurgans of Siberia.

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,735
    Points
    57,715
    Level
    74
    Points: 57,715, Level: 74
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 835
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    the J2a in Bronze Age Hungary was J2a1-M67

    now we have 2 x J2a2 SK1403 : check this
    http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,521
    Points
    29,905
    Level
    53
    Points: 29,905, Level: 53
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 945
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the J2a in Bronze Age Hungary was J2a1-M67

    now we have 2 x J2a2 SK1403 : check this
    http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/
    It is a lineage found in Punjabis and other Central Asians too.

    One of the J2a2 is from around 900 BC, too early for any Turkic group and as the article states from the Saka_Scythian epoch. The other 700 AD is the transtion period from Iranic to Turkic in Altais.
    Good to see Uygurs having this Haplogroup too. Confirms it Indo_Iranian (maybe even Tocharian) origin imo.

  5. #5
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,735
    Points
    57,715
    Level
    74
    Points: 57,715, Level: 74
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 835
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    check the link in my previous post and also the tree in this link
    the Punjabis are not SK1403, they are not even L581, they split on top of the tree
    and the oldest is 50 BC, not 900 BC

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,521
    Points
    29,905
    Level
    53
    Points: 29,905, Level: 53
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 945
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    check the link in my previous post and also the tree in this link
    the Punjabis are not SK1403, they are not even L581, they split on top of the tree
    and the oldest is 50 BC, not 900 BC


    50BC is still Scythian epoch, so where is the issue?


    Also Bronze Age J2a being of different subclade than the J2a in the Iron Age Altais isn't so important, for the point that J2a appears in Bronze and Iron Age context, anyways.

    We have various R1a and R1b subclades so why all the fuss about J2a in Hungary being slightly different than J2a in Altais?

  7. #7
    Baron Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268
    Points
    15,555
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,555, Level: 37
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Rus J2a Altai J2a Armenian J2b



    11537584_910187692371926_7574298768341963189_o.jpg



    Source: The Frozen Tombs of the Altai Mountains Phase I 2005-2006 http://www.archaeology.ugent.be/file/9

    http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a2


  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-08-12
    Location
    Győr, Hungary
    Posts
    97
    Points
    8,311
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,311, Level: 27
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 439
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b1b

    Ethnic group
    Hungarian
    Country: Hungary



    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Rus J2a Altai J2a Armenian J2b



    11537584_910187692371926_7574298768341963189_o.jpg



    Source: The Frozen Tombs of the Altai Mountains Phase I 2005-2006 http://www.archaeology.ugent.be/file/9

    http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a2


    Where did they get the Armenian samples? What's the difference between irArm and baArm? Approx how many J2b Armenians are we speaking about in this study?

  9. #9
    Baron Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268
    Points
    15,555
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,555, Level: 37
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by BakodiP View Post
    Where did they get the Armenian samples? What's the difference between irArm and baArm? Approx how many J2b Armenians are we speaking about in this study?
    The J2a IrRus (iron age rusia) is from Kytmanovo, the J2a IrAltai (iron age altai) is from Sary-Bel, and the J2b IrArm (iron age Armenia) is from Norabak. Irarm is iron age armenian and ba is bronze age armenian.

    Kytmanovo: 53.449727, 85.427022 or 53°26'59.0"N 85°25'37.3"E
    Sary-bel: 50.615, 86.459 or 50°36'54.0"N 86°27'32.4"E

    Origin of the Indo-Iranians
    https://books.google.nl/books?id=x5J...manovo&f=false

    Last edited by RHAS; 28-06-15 at 14:34.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    02-04-15
    Location
    Saray
    Posts
    74
    Points
    4,371
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,371, Level: 19
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 279
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L1b Elite Hun Turkic

    Ethnic group
    Turkic
    Country: Kazakhstan



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    It is a lineage found in Punjabis and other Central Asians too.

    One of the J2a2 is from around 900 BC, too early for any Turkic group and as the article states from the Saka_Scythian epoch. The other 700 AD is the transtion period from Iranic to Turkic in Altais.
    Good to see Uygurs having this Haplogroup too. Confirms it Indo_Iranian (maybe even Tocharian) origin imo.
    these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people based on Gedmatch results.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...2#Central_Asia

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    02-04-15
    Location
    Saray
    Posts
    74
    Points
    4,371
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,371, Level: 19
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 279
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L1b Elite Hun Turkic

    Ethnic group
    Turkic
    Country: Kazakhstan



    Country/Region Sampling N J-M172 Study
    Afghanistan Hazara 60 26.6 Haber 2012
    Afghanistan Uzbeks 126 16.0 Di Cristofaro 2013
    East Turkestan, China Uyghurs 50 34.0 Shou 2010
    East Turkestan, China Uzbeks 23 30.4 Shou 2010
    East Turkestan, China Tajiks 31 16.1 Shou 2010
    Kazakhstan Kazakhs 30 13.3 Karafet 2001
    Tajikistan Yaghnobis 31 32.0 Wells 2001
    Tajikistan Tajiks 38 18.4 Wells 2001
    Turkmenistan Turkmens 30 17.0 Wells 2001
    Uzbekistan Uzbeks 366 13.4 Wells 2001

  12. #12
    Baron Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268
    Points
    15,555
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,555, Level: 37
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.







  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,521
    Points
    29,905
    Level
    53
    Points: 29,905, Level: 53
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 945
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people based on Gedmatch results.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...2#Central_Asia
    J2a being undoubtley a West Eurasian lineage makes it pretty obvious that this is one of those Haplogroups which late Iron Age Turkic groups inherited from their Iranic speaking part of ancestors.

    Therefore it is an Iranic +Turkic Haplogroup. As seen on the table you provided.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    Country/Region Sampling N J-M172 Study
    Afghanistan Hazara 60 26.6 Haber 2012
    Afghanistan Uzbeks 126 16.0 Di Cristofaro 2013
    East Turkestan, China Uyghurs 50 34.0 Shou 2010
    East Turkestan, China Uzbeks 23 30.4 Shou 2010
    East Turkestan, China Tajiks 31 16.1 Shou 2010
    Kazakhstan Kazakhs 30 13.3 Karafet 2001
    Tajikistan Yaghnobis 31 32.0 Wells 2001
    Tajikistan Tajiks 38 18.4 Wells 2001
    Turkmenistan Turkmens 30 17.0 Wells 2001
    Uzbekistan Uzbeks 366 13.4 Wells 2001

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    02-04-15
    Location
    Saray
    Posts
    74
    Points
    4,371
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,371, Level: 19
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 279
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L1b Elite Hun Turkic

    Ethnic group
    Turkic
    Country: Kazakhstan



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    J2a being undoubtley a West Eurasian lineage makes it pretty obvious that this is one of those Haplogroups which late Iron Age Turkic groups inherited from their Iranic speaking part of ancestors.

    Therefore it is an Iranic +Turkic Haplogroup. As seen on the table you provided.
    This study doesn't let it look like you have suggested: http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3...uygur-turkish/
    Last edited by Alpakut; 16-09-15 at 20:08.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •