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Thread: Where did Great Moravians go after the collapse of Great Moravia?

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Where did Great Moravians go after the collapse of Great Moravia?

    "Ancestors of Mieszko I - were they vikings, or did they come from Great Moravia? Piast DNA will show":

    http://poznan.gazeta.pl/poznan/1,360...#ixzz3d1ll1Iqt

    "Were the Piasts a local or a foreign dynasty? If foreign, then did ancestors of Mieszko I come from the north, from Great Moravia, or from elsewhere? These and other questions will be answered by specialists in early history of Poland. And specialists in DNA research from Poznan will help them.

    This Wednesday [17.06.2015] in the Institute of Organic Chemistry of PAN (Polish Academy of Sciences) - Wieniawskiego street 17/19 in Poznań - an international scientific conference will begin, presenting the most recent findings of historians, archaeologists, biochemists and geneticists, concerning the beginnings of the Medieval Polish realm. Since Wednesday until Friday scholars will discuss the creation of Poland and the origins of the Piast Dynasty, compared to similar realms of Central Europe. They will especially discuss the question which new things to our knowledge of the past come from interdisciplinary studies, including research by specialists in population genetics.

    Where did Mieszko I come from?


    The choice of place where the conference will be held, is not random: for the last two years, the Institute of Organic Chemistry of PAN in Poznan has been involved in the research project, the goal of which is to finally solve the mysterious origins of Mieszko and of his Piast dynasty. A renowned historian - late Kazimierz Jasiński - identified 340 burials of various members of the Piast dynasty. If we manage to identify paternal lineage of Y-DNA originating from Mieszko I and Boleslav Chrobry, we will discover what was the Y chromosome of Mieszko - prof. Marek Figlerowicz, director of of the Institute of Organic Biochemistry of PAN explains - "If we then compare this genetic data with DNA of modern people, we will be able to say whether Mieszko's genome was a Slavic genome, or whether it was a Scandinavian genome. And whether genetic material of simple commoners was identical with DNA material of the ruling dynasty, or not? Because if it was, then it means that ancestors of the Piasts were descendants of 'ours'. And if not, then it means that early Poland's ruling elite had a foreign origin."

    The origin of the Piasts is one of the great mysteries of history. Not only historians try to figure out, how and from where did suddenly, in the middle of Greater Poland's forests, a clan emerge, which soon dominated its neighbours, constructing a system of powerful fortified towns, such as those in Giecz, Grzybowo, Poznań, Gniezno and Ostrów Lednicki island in the southern portion of Lake Lednica. And then they conquered neighbouring territories and created a strong realm. Until some point a hypothesis of northern, Norman origins of the Piast was popular. Its followers maintained that the Piasts were vikings, who created statehood from scratch at the Warta River. But there is lack of evidence to support this hypothesis.

    Mieszko's ancestors from Great Moravia?

    More recently, another hypothesis has gained in popularity. A hypothesis about southern, Moravian origin of ancestors of Mieszko, first proposed by scholars of the Poznan department of PAN, late prof. Zofia Kurnatowska and prof. Michał Kara. Scholars pointed out to close chronological proximity of the collapse of Great Moravia and the beginnings of Poland - both of which date back to the early 10th century. It cannot be ruled out, that ancestors of Mieszko were descendants of Great Moravian elites, who escaped to the Warta River basin following the defeat inflicted upon them by Magyar invaders.

    Was that the case? Maybe we shall hear new arguments supporting this hypothesis. The conference is organized by the Institute of History and the Institute of Prehistory of PAN, with cooperation of the Institute of Biochemistry of PAN in Poznan.

    Free entry.
    "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    "Ancestors of Mieszko I - were they vikings, or did they come from Great Moravia? Piast DNA will show":

    http://poznan.gazeta.pl/poznan/1,360...#ixzz3d1ll1Iqt

    "Were the Piasts a local or a foreign dynasty? If foreign, then did ancestors of Mieszko I come from the north, from Great Moravia, or from elsewhere? These and other questions will be answered by specialists in early history of Poland. And specialists in DNA research from Poznan will help them.

    This Wednesday [17.06.2015] in the Institute of Organic Chemistry of PAN (Polish Academy of Sciences) - Wieniawskiego street 17/19 in Poznań - an international scientific conference will begin, presenting the most recent findings of historians, archaeologists, biochemists and geneticists, concerning the beginnings of the Medieval Polish realm. Since Wednesday until Friday scholars will discuss the creation of Poland and the origins of the Piast Dynasty, compared to similar realms of Central Europe. They will especially discuss the question which new things to our knowledge of the past come from interdisciplinary studies, including research by specialists in population genetics.

    Where did Mieszko I come from?


    The choice of place where the conference will be held, is not random: for the last two years, the Institute of Organic Chemistry of PAN in Poznan has been involved in the research project, the goal of which is to finally solve the mysterious origins of Mieszko and of his Piast dynasty. A renowned historian - late Kazimierz Jasiński - identified 340 burials of various members of the Piast dynasty. If we manage to identify paternal lineage of Y-DNA originating from Mieszko I and Boleslav Chrobry, we will discover what was the Y chromosome of Mieszko - prof. Marek Figlerowicz, director of of the Institute of Organic Biochemistry of PAN explains - "If we then compare this genetic data with DNA of modern people, we will be able to say whether Mieszko's genome was a Slavic genome, or whether it was a Scandinavian genome. And whether genetic material of simple commoners was identical with DNA material of the ruling dynasty, or not? Because if it was, then it means that ancestors of the Piasts were descendants of 'ours'. And if not, then it means that early Poland's ruling elite had a foreign origin."

    The origin of the Piasts is one of the great mysteries of history. Not only historians try to figure out, how and from where did suddenly, in the middle of Greater Poland's forests, a clan emerge, which soon dominated its neighbours, constructing a system of powerful fortified towns, such as those in Giecz, Grzybowo, Poznań, Gniezno and Ostrów Lednicki island in the southern portion of Lake Lednica. And then they conquered neighbouring territories and created a strong realm. Until some point a hypothesis of northern, Norman origins of the Piast was popular. Its followers maintained that the Piasts were vikings, who created statehood from scratch at the Warta River. But there is lack of evidence to support this hypothesis.

    Mieszko's ancestors from Great Moravia?

    More recently, another hypothesis has gained in popularity. A hypothesis about southern, Moravian origin of ancestors of Mieszko, first proposed by scholars of the Poznan department of PAN, late prof. Zofia Kurnatowska and prof. Michał Kara. Scholars pointed out to close chronological proximity of the collapse of Great Moravia and the beginnings of Poland - both of which date back to the early 10th century. It cannot be ruled out, that ancestors of Mieszko were descendants of Great Moravian elites, who escaped to the Warta River basin following the defeat inflicted upon them by Magyar invaders.

    Was that the case? Maybe we shall hear new arguments supporting this hypothesis. The conference is organized by the Institute of History and the Institute of Prehistory of PAN, with cooperation of the Institute of Biochemistry of PAN in Poznan.

    Free entry.
    "
    It will be great to find out.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 14-06-15 at 17:46.

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    Great news! I thought it would take much longer before going into public.

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    @ Tomenable

    if that is correct
    then Cyrill was right, that used Great Moravia for OCS,
    and the historical written about South Slavs and great Moravia can be true!!
    simply it gives the correct history I know, away from Wends Goths Vikings,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Tomenable

    if that is correct
    then Cyrill was right, that used Great Moravia for OCS,
    and the historical written about South Slavs and great Moravia can be true!!
    simply it gives the correct history I know, away from Wends Goths Vikings,
    At the time of Cyril Great Moravia was perhaps yet connected with South Slavs,later came in the Magyars in Pannonia,which history for example i am also interested about that period it was turbulent period of Central Europe and competition between Eastern and Western churches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    At the time of Cyril Great Moravia was perhaps yet connected with South Slavs,later came in the Magyars in Pannonia,which history for example i am also interested about that period it was turbulent period of Central Europe and competition between Eastern and Western churches.
    if nobility is found from Great Moravia, or in Great Moravia, then many theories about Slavs collapse,
    like Wends and Sclaveni and Vikings and Goths,

    they seem as ScythoThracian culture then, and more connected with South Slavs than with North as OCS is,

    My personal opignion always was with the little texts I found in Byzantine Bishopries (chronicles of arch-episcope)
    in these seems Slavic homeland the today Ucraine and Romania from the late Hellenistic times around 1rst century AD,
    the inner wars and the decline of Roman empire and Goths travel to West, As also the collapse of Avars (they had a tribe named as Hrpt)
    gave road to their nobility to move West, till Paris France with the high nobility in staying at Krakowy and then Great Moravia, and the rest around, but to do not manage to create a solid state,
    the case of OCS and Great Moravia, with South Slavic, as also some known tribes like Drougobari DrogoBites (title of a Roman officer!!)
    Sagudates (royals) allies of Avars (sagu=sakka = sach= Saxon=King), Rynchini, Azerites-Nezerites (swamp people, boat), Melingi or Milanzi or Milcani (sheep breeders? milk producers) seems like that Slavs took advantage of Avars decline and moved from Black sea to Great Moravia, or where cooperating with them assimilating Avars, where they made their kingdom in Great Moravia, but pre-existed in Balkans at North parts of Black Sea, area where 4 Flavia legion was operating,
    you can find sources in
    De Administrato imperio
    Miracles of saint Dimitrios
    chronicles archbishopry of Bεροια
    etc etc in chronicles of Byzantine archbishopries,

    Generally the South Slavic nations are mentioned to come
    Serbs from North of Great Moravia,
    Croats from North of Hungary,
    Severi (Bulgarian allies) from modern Ukraine

    Anyway Great Moravia and OCS is the thin line and a good searching field to understand who were Slavs at early time of their expand,
    since we do not found Great nobility-royalty (not tribe leaders) in Slavic tribes (always allied) except in Great Moravia area where Cyrill operated, moving away from Makedonia to go there, to study and work in Slavic and teach Christianity

    and no matter some want Poland or some other countries as homeland of Slavs, Inever shared that idea
    that is why I am interested in Great Moravia nobility and Slavic
    Last edited by Yetos; 14-06-15 at 23:12.

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    Was Great Moravia a christian kingdom? If yes, and if Piast dynasty comes from Moravia, they would have brought Christianity with them to Wielkopolska. Perhaps one of reason why Poland got christened in 966 by Mieszko. However no historian mentioned about Piasts being christians before that date.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    if nobility is found from Great Moravia, or in Great Moravia, then many theories about Slavs collapse,
    like Wends and Sclaveni and Vikings and Goths,

    they seem as ScythoThracian culture then, and more connected with South Slavs than with North as OCS is,

    My personal opignion always was with the little texts I found in Byzantine Bishopries (chronicles of arch-episcope)
    in these seems Slavic homeland the today Ucraine and Romania from the late Hellenistic times around 1rst century AD,
    the inner wars and the decline of Roman empire and Goths travel to West, As also the collapse of Avars (they had a tribe named as Hrpt)
    gave road to their nobility to move West, till Paris France with the high nobility in staying at Krakowy and then Great Moravia, and the rest around, but to do not manage to create a solid state,
    the case of OCS and Great Moravia, with South Slavic, as also some known tribes like Drougobari DrogoBites (title of a Roman officer!!)
    Sagudates (royals) allies of Avars (sagu=sakka = sach= Saxon=King), Rynchini, Azerites-Nezerites (swamp people, boat), Melingi or Milanzi or Milcani (sheep breeders? milk producers) seems like that Slavs took advantage of Avars decline and moved from Black sea to Great Moravia, or where cooperating with them assimilating Avars, where they made their kingdom in Great Moravia, but pre-existed in Balkans at North parts of Black Sea, area where 4 Flavia legion was operating,
    you can find sources in
    De Administrato imperio
    Miracles of saint Dimitrios
    chronicles archbishopry of Bεροια
    etc etc in chronicles of Byzantine archbishopries,

    Generally the South Slavic nations are mentioned to come
    Serbs from North of Great Moravia,
    Croats from North of Hungary,
    Severi (Bulgarian allies) from modern Ukraine

    Anyway Great Moravia and OCS is the thin line and a good searching field to understand who were Slavs at early time of their expand,
    since we do not found Great nobility-royalty (not tribe leaders) in Slavic tribes (always allied) except in Great Moravia area where Cyrill operated, moving away from Makedonia to go there, to study and work in Slavic and teach Christianity

    and no matter some want Poland or some other countries as homeland of Slavs, Inever shared that idea
    that is why I am interested in Great Moravia nobility and Slavic
    Well i think you got it wrong if North is connected to OCS their language perhaps developed within the same dialect based on the OCS,OCS is based on a dialect once spoken in Greek Macedonia,but not other way arround,which i can barely understand it today,there was no big differiation in Slavic at that time,Byzantines created big mess with Sclavenes and Sclavinia however,if we are to speak about Dragubites,Sagudates,Milinchoi(Sclavinian tribes) etc which created so called Sclavinia(which mean territory out of imperial control) others like Belegezites were allies of the Romans and supplied the besieged Thesaloniki with grain,but some were allies with Sclavenes and Avars in particular texts,however the author of Miracle St Demetrious doesn't mention they came from somewhere else but simple living in the hinterland of Thesaloniki,as for the Sclavenes they had their power base in Pannonia other places in the Danube, later in Moravia as well and Avar military elite was regarded as Sclaveni,they were border guards and i think those "Sclavenes" collonized many places,some were doing their stuff independently some with the Avars,they besieged Constantinople with the Avars and Persians,but if you look different on geo political map the Goal of the Avars,Sclavenes,Persians was to conquer the Byzantine empire in which they failed,the Persians were later conquered by Muslims and Islamized,Avar kindgom had civil war after they failed in conquering Constantinople there was many powers already competating with eachother,later emerged Croats,Serbs,Bulgars,Great Moravia,particular wars are recorded against Avars,Avars lost most of their power and at last Charlemagne conquer them,Byzantine empire later slowly came back in the Balkans and created the Hellene theme,Hellenized certain Slavic groups in Pelopponese and elsewhere in Greece some sending in Asia minor,however lingustics claim with certainity that the Avars spoked Slavic before the demise,and were they Iranic or Turkic speaking no proves.As for Administrando de imperio i do not believe much in the stories it is written 3 centuries after this developments,the book is didactic particurarly to Emperor son cause many times he mention him after the same stories.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 15-06-15 at 02:34.

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    "Ancestors of Mieszko I - were they vikings, or did they come from Great Moravia? Piast DNA will show":
    This subject is now simply silly or tragic.
    They are researching allready so many years and no one can do this.
    From about ten years exists only several big annouces and that's all.
    I wouldn't be surprized, if they once again will be only talking about
    researching, and there will be no hg Y result present.
    I hope i'm wrong.

    About the origins of Piast dynasty - I think that they're coming from Kiev,
    as all Polans tribe, because nearby that city Polans originally lived. In 843
    in present day Great Poland there where no Polans at all. So why they
    were 150 years later? I think it could be two factors: some Khazars kagan
    expelled local dynasty, or - whot is more probable - first Vikings in Kiev did
    this. Most probable - Askold and Dir. So local leaders took some people
    with them and go on the west. Third probable option is, that some norman
    leader of Kiev was expelled by Oleg, and did the same, but then we will
    have not accurate DNA result, because it will be of scandinavian origin.

    Exists yet another problem. Almost every existing Piasts graves belong to
    the descendants of Boleslaus III Wrymouthed who is consider sometimes
    as not a son of his father. Still existst his remains and his father. It would
    be nice to reseach them too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    then Cyrill was right, that used Great Moravia for OCS,
    and the historical written about South Slavs and great Moravia can be true!!
    simply it gives the correct history I know, away from Wends Goths Vikings,
    What do you exactly mean by this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    However no historian mentioned about Piasts being christians before that date.
    Some tryed.
    Exist some legendary story about Lestek's son Evraker, who was a bishop in Nederlands.
    According to John de Preis, Evraker, bishop of Liege, was a son of polish prince.

    From my history teacher I heard about mention Siemovit in some karolongian document,
    but I dont exactly remember. It is possible, that in IX century were some contacts and
    agreements with franconian rulers and as a result some dynasty members could be in
    effect baptized, as it was for example in lithuanian case some centuries later.

    Some historians are interpreting the story about Siemovits first haircut, as baptism
    which did two moravians missionaries. It wouldn't be so strange, because some
    polabian and pomeranian dukes were baptized, but their people not. Who knows...

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    I've found such a scheme explaining what the genetic part of the project "Dynasty and society of the Piasts" (see the OP) is all about:
    (it was made back in 2013 when the project started):

    http://ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki...ow/figlerowicz



    Looks like a HUGE project, but I wonder what has actually been done, and what is still to be done.

    I wonder if they already have some ancient DNA results.

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    I am so jealous to what Polish are doing. I can only hope that this approach becomes best practice in Europe sooner or later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Looks like a HUGE project, but I wonder what has actually been done, and what is still to be done.
    I wonder if they already have some ancient DNA results.
    Probably not. As usually.

    I am affraid that if they even do this huge project with aDNA and mtDNA, they can not check Y.

    This is soooo normal and probable...

    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I am so jealous to what Polish are doing. I can only hope that this approach becomes best practice in Europe sooner or later.
    Don't be so jealous, because probably it will not work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    Well i think you got it wrong if North is connected to OCS their language perhaps developed within the same dialect based on the OCS,OCS is based on a dialect once spoken in Greek Macedonia,but not other way arround,which i can barely understand it today,there was no big differiation in Slavic at that time,Byzantines created big mess with Sclavenes and Sclavinia however,if we are to speak about Dragubites,Sagudates,Milinchoi(Sclavinian tribes) etc which created so called Sclavinia(which mean territory out of imperial control) others like Belegezites were allies of the Romans and supplied the besieged Thesaloniki with grain,but some were allies with Sclavenes and Avars in particular texts,however the author of Miracle St Demetrious doesn't mention they came from somewhere else but simple living in the hinterland of Thesaloniki,as for the Sclavenes they had their power base in Pannonia other places in the Danube, later in Moravia as well and Avar military elite was regarded as Sclaveni,they were border guards and i think those "Sclavenes" collonized many places,some were doing their stuff independently some with the Avars,they besieged Constantinople with the Avars and Persians,but if you look different on geo political map the Goal of the Avars,Sclavenes,Persians was to conquer the Byzantine empire in which they failed,the Persians were later conquered by Muslims and Islamized,Avar kindgom had civil war after they failed in conquering Constantinople there was many powers already competating with eachother,later emerged Croats,Serbs,Bulgars,Great Moravia,particular wars are recorded against Avars,Avars lost most of their power and at last Charlemagne conquer them,Byzantine empire later slowly came back in the Balkans and created the Hellene theme,Hellenized certain Slavic groups in Pelopponese and elsewhere in Greece some sending in Asia minor,however lingustics claim with certainity that the Avars spoked Slavic before the demise,and were they Iranic or Turkic speaking no proves.As for Administrando de imperio i do not believe much in the stories it is written 3 centuries after this developments,the book is didactic particurarly to Emperor son cause many times he mention him after the same stories.
    Sorry , I said they seem as ScythoThracian culture then, and more connected with South Slavs than with North as OCS is,
    I ment they seem as ScythoThracian culture then, and more connected with South Slavs, than with North, as OCS is,


    No, it seems like I2 of South Slavs maybe is from Ukraine, and moved West,
    in miracles of St |Dimitri we see a connection of Slavs with Avars, and the strange of Cyrrill to go to Great Moravia, and area known to Roman, makes me think that Slavic Elite (royalty nobility) moved there,
    or they Assimilate Avars,
    but the most possible is that Avars decline and Slavs moved from Ukraine to Krakowy and S Poland and SloVakia, and from there to Great Moravia,
    HOW COME THE SEVERI WHO CAME FROM VOLGA RIVER KNEW SLAVIC IF SLAVIC HOMELAND IS SCLAVENI? why to go East and then South?
    it does not fit,
    but old I2a2 might originated in Ukraine, so it seems that we had a change of capital / nobility of Slavs and assimilation of Avars,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Sorry , I said they seem as ScythoThracian culture then, and more connected with South Slavs than with North as OCS is,
    I ment they seem as ScythoThracian culture then, and more connected with South Slavs, than with North, as OCS is,


    No, it seems like I2 of South Slavs maybe is from Ukraine, and moved West,
    in miracles of St |Dimitri we see a connection of Slavs with Avars, and the strange of Cyrrill to go to Great Moravia, and area known to Roman, makes me think that Slavic Elite (royalty nobility) moved there,
    or they Assimilate Avars,
    but the most possible is that Avars decline and Slavs moved from Ukraine to Krakowy and S Poland and SloVakia, and from there to Great Moravia,
    HOW COME THE SEVERI WHO CAME FROM VOLGA RIVER KNEW SLAVIC IF SLAVIC HOMELAND IS SCLAVENI? why to go East and then South?
    it does not fit,
    but old I2a2 might originated in Ukraine, so it seems that we had a change of capital / nobility of Slavs and assimilation of Avars,
    Not sure,Russian primary chronicle tell us Severi came from the Danube to Ukraine,traditional history tell us other way arround who know historians connect them with South Slavs,it's a big mess,Sclaveni however become synonim of Slavs later and after in historiography,but none question who those people exactly was,however Romans didn't like them they sign truce with Avars against Sclaveni,with Antes against Sclaveni,but never defeated them,i think those Sclaveni were someone from the same region or within the empire,being mad on the emperor and the inflation in the empire so Procopious and Jordanes gave them that name,new name in Roman historiography for new political ethnie against the empire.
    Last edited by Милан М.; 17-06-15 at 19:00.

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    and the strange of Cyrrill to go to Great Moravia, and area known to Roman, makes me think that Slavic Elite (royalty nobility) moved there,
    [/QUOTE]
    Cyril went in Great Moravia to influence them with Eastern church,Glagolithic alphabet they called for that mission,but the plan failed.

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    It is Wednesday, any news? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro
    any news? :)
    There is some news:

    http://mediewalia.pl/wydarzenia/gene...atkach-polski/

    Basically this news is - no ancient DNA results, so far.

    But work is in progress.

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