Very advanced Indoeuropeans - cows reveal their history! :-)

[LeBrok]

Fire haired 14, see these links:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/03...opper-and.html

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...LXM/view?pli=1

You can see the ancestors of Corded Ware, clearly indo-europeans have a majority of light hairs and eyes, so no Corded were not brown eyes; in fact their ancestors Globular Amphora Culture is older than Yamna, so why continue to consider Yamna to be the first indo-Europeans ? according Genetiker Samara have been tested with blond and blue eyes, (supposed to be the ancestors of Yamna)...also according the recent test, Yamna is something around half WHG ? so why they don't have the famous blue eyes genes.

From 101 Bronze Age Genomes paper we learn that Andronovo culture (Indo-Iranian?) was more like Corded Ware than like Yamna guys. This means that they could have come from farther north and west than Yamna, and could carry more blond mutations. Also, it happens a thousand years later than Yamna, and it gives more time to develop blond mutations in North Farmer communities of Corded Ware.

Lebrok, okay, but the problem the WHG is supposed to be a tiny minority who have been mixed with 2 far largest groups of brown eyes;

To understand how it works in real life, we need to step away from only statistical recombination of genes. In nature there are forces which help develop new mutations, and "reward" good mutations to spread through population. The blond genes, especially light skin, is very beneficial up North. The most beneficial place for white skin is around Baltic and North Sea where Sun radiation level is very low due to high latitude and cloudy skys. The lighter the skin, the bigger production of Vitamin D3. This is exactly where we see the most concentration of all forms of blondism, the skin, the hair and eyes.
There is also a reason why norther farmers were lighter skin than northern hunter gatherers. Hunter Gatherers had extra source of Vitamin D from animal liver and amount of other organs and meat they consumed. Farmers on other hand changed their diet to mostly starches, and for that reason the only source of Vitamin D for them was the sunlight and white skin. Usually the white skin goes together with lighter eyes and hair, due to accumulation of blond mutations. However the jury is still in on benefit of blue eyes and blond hair? A better eyesight during cloudy days? A better camouflage hunting in winter?

 

[Alan]

possible place of origin for Indo_Iranians

 

[LeBrok]

It simply doesn't work, or maybe in
Scandinavia had place some miracle

It is called natural selection. People who don't understand how it works call it miracle.

 

[Silesian]

Here ==>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...and-a-love-of-dairy-study-shows-10311317.html

Blue eyes and red hair genes have been around for a long time.

http://anthropology.net/2014/11/07/kostenki-14-a-36000-year-old-european/
http://dna-explained.com/2014/11/12/kostenki14-a-new-ancient-siberian-dna-sample/

Others say that light skin and blue eyes and L/P are from the middle/near east farmer types. We need more genomes. However one thing is clear; the Haak et al 2015 &
Allentoft et al 2015 have basically come to the same conclusion using different data sets, clearly pointing to the ancient region in the pictures below, and coinciding with your diagram.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

 

[Rethel]

I wish to remind the second most interesting thing in this article.

They brought with them new technology, new family structures, new religion and new ways of burying
their dead. They also brought the start of cities. They were a hightech culture” he said. (...) The old Neolithic
farming cultures were replaced by a completly new perception of family, property and personhood.

But they didn't mention any specifics. So, my question is: what were this new customs,
ideas, perceptions and belives and what was the old ones? Somebody maybe knows?

Any ideas?

 

[Rethel]

It is called natural selection. People who don't understand how it works call it miracle.

Lebrok, andI have sometimes impression, that these, who claim that understand, in some cases dont uderstand at all,
or in these cases which dont fit to the theory they are trying to explain some things by not quite logical ways aspecially
mostly denying their own theory by truing to defance her... because belive in untouchable natural selection is pretty
religious belive, which always must be true, because without that, this kind of people are loosing sens of life :grin:

(I know, I know, terrible sentence... )

Blue eyes and red hair genes have been around for a long time.

Ok, but in which population and when?

 

[Silesian]

Ok, but in which population and when?

I don't know but yourself/myself and LeBrok are from this region or connected with it.
Here is a good video to watch.

The 19:26 Kurgan could be related[distant 5000+/- relative] to myself and LeBrock[I'm pretty sure all of us fall under Z-2105+]

 

[Angela]

Here ==>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...and-a-love-of-dairy-study-shows-10311317.html

Our European ancestors brought farming,
languages and a love of dairy, study shows.

Thousands of Bronze Age migrants from the Caucuses came to northern
Europe in a major movement of prehistoric people in the 3 millennium BC.

The making of modern Europe began in earnest about 5,000 years ago when a mass migration of people from what is now southern Russia and Georgia introduced new technology, languages and dairy farming to the continent, a study has found. Thousands of Bronze Age migrants from the Caucuses came to northern Europe in a major movement of prehistoric people in the third millennium BC, according to the largest research project of its kind that analysed the genetic makeup of more than 100 ancient skeletons from the period. The migrants brought new metal skills, spoke what became the basis of almost every other European language – from Greek and Latin to German and English – and carried a genetic mutation that allowed adults to drink cow’s milk.

This lactose-tolerance gene, which enables adults to digest the sugar in milk, is still more prevalent in north Europeans today than in most other regions of the world. This illustrates the historic importance of dairy food in the North European diet, the scientists said. The mass migration was one of the most significant in European history, equivalent to the colonisation of the Americas, and was a transformative period in terms of the change in languages and culture that it brought about, the researchers believe. “The single most important finding from our study is that the Bronze Age, which is relatively recent, is when the major genetic landscape affecting modern-day Europeans was formed. It’s a surprise as it happened so recently,” said Eske Willerslev, professor of evolutionary genetics at the University of Copenhagen. “Our study is the first, real large-scale population genomic study ever undertaken on ancient individuals. We analysed genome sequence data from 101 past individuals. This is more than a doubling of the number of genomic sequenced individuals of prehistoric man generated to date,” Professor Willerslev said. “The results show that the genetic composition and distribution of peoples in Europe and Asia today is a surprisingly late phenomenon, only a few thousand years old,” he said. The genomic analysis, published in the journal Nature, indicates that the Yamnaya people who lived in the Caucuses about 5,000 years ago were responsible for spreading not just their innovative cultural ideas and languages, but their DNA across a vast area extending from the Urals to Scandinavia. They effectively replaced the older Neolithic farmers and hunter-gatherers who had occupied the northern Europe for thousands of years previously, presumably aided by the Yamnaya’s ability to smelt bronze and copper and herd cattle, Professor Willerslev said. “They brought with them new technology, new family structures, new religion and new ways of burying their dead. They also brought the start of cities. They were a high-tech culture,” he said.

The Yamnaya also probably introduced genes for brown eyes, pale skin and tall stature to northern Europeans in the third millennium BC, which at that time was inhabited by dark skinned, blue-eyed, short people, he said. Crucially, they also brought the lactose-tolerance mutation that would allow adults to drink cow’s milk, a useful genetic attribute for healthy nutrition. “Previously, the common belief was that lactose tolerance developed in the Balkans or in the Middle East in connection with the introduction of farming during the Stone Age,” said Martin Sikora of the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, a co-author of the study. “But now we can see that even late in the Bronze Age the mutation that gives rise to the tolerance is rare in Europe. We think that it may have been introduced into Europe with the Yamnaya herders from the Caucasus but that the selection that has made most Europeans lactose tolerant has happened at a much later time,” Dr Sikora said. Professor Kristian Kristiansen, an archaeologist at the University of Gothenburg, said the study resolves some of the questions about whether this period in prehistory was dominated by the movement of ideas or the migration and settlement of people en masse. “The old Neolithic farming cultures were replaced by a completely new perception of family, property and personhood. I and other archaeologists share the opinion that these changes came about as a result of massive migrations,” Professor Kristiansen said. The study, led by Morten Allentoft of the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, also found that the Yamnaya people migrated east to occupy parts of Central Asia. They were eventually replaced by eastern Asians about 2,000 years ago.

I see here minimum one problem in that. If yamna-people brought into Northern
Europe brown eyes, where originally were only blue, then, how it happend, that
another Indoeuropeans - as was for example said in the end of the article - who
migrated in totally diffrenet parts of Eurasia, had blue eyes, for exaple in Central
Asia, India, Mesopotamia and even in present day China and Mongolia??? It does
not make any sens, especially that usually blue eyes are combined with pale skin
and dark skin is combined with brown eyes, with exeptions of course.

Modern day example from Iran, Muhammad Ali Ramin, Irans minister:

So, when did the pre-indoeuropean blue-eyed "scandinavians"
invade iranian plateau, ancient Egypt or lands as far as Gansu?

Second, they wrote:

They brought with them new technology, new family
structures, new religion and new ways of burying
their dead. They also brought the start of cities. They
were a hightech culture” he said. (...) The old Neolithic
farming cultures were replaced by a completly new
perception of family, property and personhood.

But they didn't mention any specifics. So, my question is: what were this new customs,
ideas, perceptions and belives and what was the old ones? Somebody maybe knows?

For a summary of the flow of culture and technology from south of the Caucasus north onto the steppe and thus an explanation of part of the genesis of the Yamnaya "Indo-European" complex please see the Supplementary Info section of Allentoft et al 2015, page 2.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s1.pdf

Cattle were domesticated in the Near East and first went to Europe with the Neolithic farmers.
Please see David Anthony's "The Horse, The Wheel and Language". If you don't have access to it, just go to Google Books, and sample it for particular topics. Here is where he discusses the fact that domesticated cattle were present in earliest Neolithic Thessaly from 5500 BC.
https://books.google.com/books?id=r...=onepage&q=cattle in Neolithic Europe&f=false

In fact, you can use the google books version to see how farming, cattle and sheep domestication, and some developmnents in metallurgy moved from the southeastern European Neolithic cultures into Yamnaya. There's then the separate movement of culture and technology from south of the Caucasus to north of the Caucausus mentioned above.

As to pigmentation, if memory serves you were already directed to all the relevant papers so I won't bother to list them all again. Perhaps you haven't had time to read them yet.

Numerous scientists have examined the genomes of the WHG. They were homozygous for the snps which lead to blue eyes, but did not possess any of the modern European snps for pale skin. There is, I suppose, a possibility that they possessed some other snps which depigmented them of which we're not aware, but it is hardly a parsimonious theory; why so much selection for the modern versions if they were already depigmented? However, if you wish to cling to that hope, for whatever reason, that's your prerogative. As for me, when a scientist finds these missing genes I will, of course, change my mind on the matter. Until then, the science is what it is, and light pigmentation is the result of, in evolutionary terms, relatively recent selection.

 

[Angela]

I wish to remind the second most interesting thing in this article.

They brought with them new technology, new family structures, new religion and new ways of burying
their dead. They also brought the start of cities. They were a hightech culture” he said. (...) The old Neolithic
farming cultures were replaced by a completly new perception of family, property and personhood.

But they didn't mention any specifics. So, my question is: what were this new customs,
ideas, perceptions and belives and what was the old ones? Somebody maybe knows?

Any ideas?

Please see post #26.
Their technology, including their burial practices, were borrowed from other cultures. They did spread them around, however, and later made some improvements of their own.

If you wish to review evolutionary theory, in particular natural selection, there are, I'm sure, some simplified texts on line.

Well, I feel helpful today...see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

 

[Angela]

Blue eyes and red hair genes have been around for a long time.

http://anthropology.net/2014/11/07/kostenki-14-a-36000-year-old-european/
http://dna-explained.com/2014/11/12/kostenki14-a-new-ancient-siberian-dna-sample/

Others say that light skin and blue eyes and L/P are from the middle/near east farmer types. We need more genomes. However one thing is clear; the Haak et al 2015 &
Allentoft et al 2015 have basically come to the same conclusion using different data sets, clearly pointing to the ancient region in the pictures below, and coinciding with your diagram.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433


View attachment 7298
View attachment 7299

I don't know what you're getting at...Mal'ta was not red haired. One minor allele supposedly found by Genetiker does not a red haired person make...Do we really have to go over all of this again? Pigmentation is a polygenic trait. Please google pigmentation on this site for relevant threads. They will direct you to the relevant papers.

 

[Drax]

It is called natural selection. People who don't understand how it works call it miracle.

Well, the problem that blue eyes have no advantage and is extremely recessive (see my link with the USA); and we know the WHG were a really weak numbers and have been replaced by Yamna/indo-Europeans peoples (and before that by farmers); I don't see how natural selection could work in this context.

@Rethel

for the new traditions, according Marita Gimbutas, Dumezil etc.., the Indo-Europeans were patriarcal, more warriors-like, and have brought all these news religions/mythology well known today like Norse Gods, Celtic, Greeks etc...; apparently the olds gods of the farmers were more matriarcal:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)

Marija Gimbutas investigated the Neolithic period in order to understand cultural developments in settled village culture in the southern Balkans, which she characterized as peaceful, matrilineal, and possessing a goddess-centered religion. In contrast, she characterizes the later Indo-European influences as warlike, nomadic, and patrilineal. Using evidence from pottery and sculpture, and combining the tools of archaeology, comparative mythology, linguistics, and, most controversially, folkloristics, Gimbutas invented a new interdisciplinary field, archaeomythology."

 

[LeBrok]

Lebrok, andI have sometimes impression, that these, who claim that understand, in some cases dont uderstand at all,
or in these cases which dont fit to the theory they are trying to explain some things by not quite logical ways aspecially
mostly denying their own theory by truing to defance her... because belive in untouchable natural selection is pretty
religious belive, which always must be true, because without that, this kind of people are loosing sens of life :grin:

(I know, I know, terrible sentence... )

Terrible indoctrination by Catholic Church.
The only sense of life is making next generation. Once you understand it and embrace natural selection all nature will become transparent and will make sense. Otherwise you will be stuck in old ways, lost and confused and counting on miracles to explain how it works.
I know what I'm saying. 20 years ago I was exactly like you, trying to unify my christian beliefs with laws of nature and human nature. It didn't work. Now I understand, all make sense, and I'm at peace.

The "loosing sens of life", "losing morality" is religious propaganda. To keep you away from free thinking, from taking all possibilities under consideration. Remember, every time you consider a possibility that God doesn't exist, you are sinning. You don't want that, do you?

 

[Rethel]

for whatever reason

No reason.
Simply deduction and logic.
That's all.

 

[Fire Haired14]

How do you know the Western Hunter Gatherers were blue eyed??? is there some magical study that actually saw all samples as blue eyed? We dont know what the Yamnaya or Sintashta-Andrononvo people looked like (I mean as far as eye colored). We can only guess or infer. You are assuming the WHG were this and the IE were that. You are simply guessing.

There's a marker in DNA that can determine whether someone has light or dark eye color with something like 99% accuracy. Blue eyed people from the Middle East have the same marker as blue eyed people in Europe. We have these ancient people's DNA, so we have a good idea what eye color they had.

 

[LeBrok]

Well, the problem that blue eyes have no advantage and is extremely recessive (see my link with the USA); and we know the WHG were a really weak numbers and have been replaced by Yamna/indo-Europeans peoples (and before that by farmers); I don't see how natural selection could work in this context.
."

Please explain without invoking natural selection how blue eyes could start at all. I suppose, you believe that, Homo Sapiens came from Africa they had only black eyes to start with. How is it possible that first blue eyes happened and made itself dominant in black eyes population?

 

[Drax]

Terrible indoctrination by Catholic Church.
The only sense of life is making next generation. Once you understand it and embrace natural selection all nature will become transparent and will make sense. Otherwise you will be stuck in old ways, lost and confused and counting on miracles to explain how it works.
I know what I'm saying. 20 years ago I was exactly like you, trying to unify my christian beliefs with laws of nature and human nature. It didn't work. Now I understand, all make sense, and I'm at peace.

The "loosing sens of life", "losing morality" is religious propaganda. To keep you away from free thinking, from taking all possibilities under consideration. Remember, every time you consider a possibility that God doesn't exist, you are sinning. You don't want that, do you?

Lol that sound like a preach for "natural selection", like a religious speech.

More seriously, I don't think Rethel is 100% against the theory of the natural selection, he is against the way that have been used like a magical explanation, blue eyes is a recessive traits, that have been proved, and everybody can see that...so that seem illogical, and I'm 100% agree with him, that a tiny population like WHG have given to have a majority, and far more advanced groups, a recessive traits; and that this population were dark skinned with blue eyes (?); there are too much no sense; for him the indo-europeans have without any doubt light eyes too (and there are plenty examples of proto-indo-europeans with light eyes hairs and eyes, sometimes older than Yamna, see my previous examples).

 

[Drax]

Please explain without invoking natural selection how blue eyes could start at all. I suppose, you believe that, Homo Sapiens came from Africa they had only black eyes to start with. How is it possible that first blue eyes happened and made itself dominant in black eyes population?

I don't have to explain something, I'm not a scientific, but I know when something have no sense; if you are not agree, please explain me how today, in USA, among Whites peoples, despites that they have the populations with more powers, blue eyes simply disappear and how a tiny minority like WHG should have been abble to give to a vast majority an extremely recessive traits...there are something wrong somewhere.

And so explain me how natural selection could work about blue eyes, when it's well known that blue eyes don't give any advantage in the nature.

For peoples "come from Africa", lot of scientifics don't necessary agree with this theory, so no I don't specially believe that humans or homo-sapiens (whatever you call them) come from Africa.

 

[Drax]

There's a marker in DNA that can determine whether someone has light or dark eye color with something like 99% accuracy. Blue eyed people from the Middle East have the same marker as blue eyed people in Europe. We have these ancient people's DNA, so we have a good idea what eye color they had.

No, not 99%, there are too much problem also with modern peoples to be sure for ancients WHG; for example, for what I have read, the karitiana, an ameridians groups have the genes for blue eyes, but have dark brown eyes..so I guess other factors could play a role.

 

[Rethel]

for the new traditions, according Marita Gimbutas, Dumezil etc.., the Indo-Europeans were patriarcal, more warriors-like, and have brought all these news religions/mythology well known today like Norse Gods, Celtic, Greeks etc...; apparently the olds gods of the farmers were more matriarcal:

Aaaa... I thought that maybe some new dicoveries were made in that matter...

Any way, thanks, for trying.

Terrible indoctrination by Catholic Church.

OMG! Paranoia?

Last time I was indoctrinate by CCh when I was 10 or maybe 12 years old...

The only sense of life is making next generation.

No, I was talking abut something else.

For evolutionists their concepts are so important, because they loved to belived in them.
This is their sens of life, because every man have sens in that what he likes, belives and
apreciate. It dosent matter if this is evolution belives, christian faith, political convictions
or even collecting the poststamps. Especially if some one is focused on that or combined
with that some images about his existance or worldview. You can call it religion or not. It
doesn't matter. Some people can die for their football-club... because this is their religion.

Once you understand it and embrace natural selection all nature will become transparent and will make sense. Otherwise you will be stuck in old ways, lost and confused and counting on miracles to explain how it works.

I have no such problems. Only curiosity.

I know what I'm saying. 20 years ago I was exactly like you, trying to unify my christian beliefs with laws of nature and human nature. It didn't work. Now I understand, all make sense, and I'm at peace.

Maybe you are in peace, but your trying was probably from wrong point of view.
A knew many people who were trying - some of them became irrational biggots,
totaly blind for everything, some of them became in the best case deisitic, and of
course totaly blind for everything but not their own imagination, and some of them
became ateists like you, whose discover their new idols called natural selection,
evolution, atheism, Dawkins, aso - and they are probably most blindly from all
this groups, they are more biggot than biggots, because they are knowing true
about everything and are always right, and of course they are not so stupid, as
this christian people... they are the most inteligent people of all times!
In their own eyes of course, because Dawkins said so...

The "loosing sens of life", "losing morality" is religious propaganda.

Atheists probably dont have any sense of life, so they cannot loose it?
No! They have, like religious people, and they put thier sens in some
things in the same way as religious people do. And by the same way
they can be sectarian in their mind, or can be free. But ateist is never
totaly free minded, because he is already in prison called: "God does
not exist". Beliving person can uderstand everything, even evolution,
but atheist cannot understand everything, for example creation. Why?
Because in his mind it is impossible, because creation cannot be done
without Creator! So if Creator exists and create the Universe, atheist
never get it, because he allready know, that this is impossible. But in
the case of beliving person, everything is possible with God, even this
so laudly called Evolution. She could be made with Creator, this is no
problem at all. Only atheists are limited, not beliving people. Postulated
by atheists open minded is not true. They are closed for creation and
for existing of god or supernatural powers by principle. Theists are not.
So, who is more close minded?

To keep you away from free thinking, from taking all possibilities under consideration. Remember, every time you consider a possibility that God doesn't exist, you are sinning. You don't want that, do you?

I already demonstrated you, who is really free thinking.
You are not, because you already know that God doesnt
exists at all, and that evolution is a fact. Congratulations.

 

[Silesian]

.Do we really have to go over all of this again? ...................Mal'ta was not red haired

No I prefer not.
However you do realize a different mix of genes between these two; yes?
One found closer to Yamnaya; the other sharing basal R*