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Thread: Evolutionary History of R1b M269 based on modern Iberian data

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Not stupid at all, your points here; just concerning Lusitanian, for I red, it seems very close to Celtic languages, except the lost of p-I-Ean P-, like Ligurian and maybe, the famous but contested North-West Old I-Ean - was not Aquitanian akin to Basque? Since long enough ago I 'm wondering as you if some steppic Y-R1b people were precediing or pushed by I-Eans other Y-R1b. Basques show so many links with Northwestern Europe on more than a field, even in mtDNA, except language. but I know some of the common mtDNa could have been passed by autochtonous Iberia inhabitants at post LGM to Northern places, so?...
    If R1b brought steppe language to Iberia, then what language IEs had? Perhaps a farmer's language of Mykope/Caucasus, or Cucuteni-Tripolia?
    Historically/statistically speaking, language flows from farmers to hunter gatherers.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There's also the possibility that R1b was brought by steppe people and late neolithic farmers simultaneously. L23*/Z2103 that is prevalent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe could have been brought by steppe invaders, while L51 could represent an Indo-Europianized Cucuteni people (who originally came from West Asia) that travelled through the Danube to Bavaria and then to Western and Northern Europe. We know very well the cultures of western Ukraine were heavily mixed between Yamna culture and farmer cultures.We have a clear dichotomy between R1a CW and R1b BB in the EBA, and this presents a major problem for IE linguistically and archaeologically, which was presumed to be one unified culture. Such a discrepancy blows a hole through this theory. The only possible way to rectify this is for one of R1a/R1b to be the original PIE speakers, and the other to be an adopted IE culture but with originally different roots.

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    We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

    Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

    Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.
    Judging by archaeology, we should see farmer admixture flowing from Cucuteni to West Yamnaya, and another farmer admixture flowing from Caucasus to East Yamnaya. That's what I'm expecting to see from future research, but who knows. We've been surprised many times already. Furthermore, even though Cucuteni and Caucasus farmers came from same homeland in Near East they could have been separated by 5-7 thousand years of separate cultural evolution. After such long time their languages might have been mutually unintelligible.
    My point is that if West and East Yamnaya got their language from farmers, they wouldn't necessarily have spoken the same language. When East Yamnaya R1b folks started migration first they possibly didn't carry IE language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

    Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

    Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.
    Tomenable, it's one thing to speculate that maybe some R1b men moved early into the Balkans and adopted "Neolithic farmer" languages, even though that's wild speculation.

    It's something else again to say that R1b moved in the first instance from the Balkans to the steppe and there not only adopted the Indo-European language but participated in the ethnogenesis of the Yamnaya people.

    The genetics are totally against that. We have a hunter gatherer R1b from Samara who was EHG. Then we have the later Yamnaya culture R1b samples who are no longer "pure" EHG. Their EHG was "diluted" by admixture with a population that was itself minority EHG and majority "Near Eastern". That "Near Eastern" was not the EEF which would have been present in the Balkans. Moreover, no European farmer has yet shown an EHG component. There was also an "eastern" South Asian related component in Yamnaya that we don't see in WHG or EEF, and that in fact doesn't show up in Europe until the coming of the Indo-Europeans.

    I just don't think there's any evidence for what you're proposing, and a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise. Now, of course we have to wait and see the samples. Maybe some of the more western shifted Yamnaya people had a slice of EEF from the Balkan people moving onto the steppe, but there's none of that in the Yamnaya we have so far. That migration east just didn't reach that far.

    Also, to base so much on the current distribution of subclades of R1b in Iberia isn't warranted, in my opinion. Iberia isn't like Italy. We're known since Ralph and Coop et al that there is no significant autosomal substructure of that kind in Iberia other than for the Basques. I think that may have to do with the Reconquista and with the deliberate policy of population resettlement engaged in by Spanish and Portuguese royalty. Who knows what it used to look like?

    If anything, it would be more likely, I think, that R1a was north of the core area, and was Indo-Europeanized by R1b, although I think it might have been that both of them spoke it and participated in the creation of the unique Indo-European culture.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tomenable, it's one thing to speculate that maybe some R1b men moved early into the Balkans and adopted "Neolithic farmer" languages, even though that's wild speculation.

    It's something else again to say that R1b moved in the first instance from the Balkans to the steppe and there not only adopted the Indo-European language but participated in the ethnogenesis of the Yamnaya people.

    The genetics are totally against that. We have a hunter gatherer R1b from Samara who was EHG. Then we have the later Yamnaya culture R1b samples who are no longer "pure" EHG. Their EHG was "diluted" by admixture with a population that was itself minority EHG and majority "Near Eastern". That "Near Eastern" was not the EEF which would have been present in the Balkans. Moreover, no European farmer has yet shown an EHG component. There was also an "eastern" South Asian related component in Yamnaya that we don't see in WHG or EEF, and that in fact doesn't show up in Europe until the coming of the Indo-Europeans.

    I just don't think there's any evidence for what you're proposing, and a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise. Now, of course we have to wait and see the samples. Maybe some of the more western shifted Yamnaya people had a slice of EEF from the Balkan people moving onto the steppe, but there's none of that in the Yamnaya we have so far. That migration east just didn't reach that far.

    Also, to base so much on the current distribution of subclades of R1b in Iberia isn't warranted, in my opinion. Iberia isn't like Italy. We're known since Ralph and Coop et al that there is no significant autosomal substructure of that kind in Iberia other than for the Basques. I think that may have to do with the Reconquista and with the deliberate policy of population resettlement engaged in by Spanish and Portuguese royalty. Who knows what it used to look like?

    If anything, it would be more likely, I think, that R1a was north of the core area, and was Indo-Europeanized by R1b, although I think it might have been that both of them spoke it and participated in the creation of the unique Indo-European culture.
    I found this conversation about the source of proto-IE language very interesting and created a new thread dedicated to it. I'm taking a liberty to copy/past your intriguing post there, Angela.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...293#post460293

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    Yeah of course Martinez Cruz et al. was wrong. The frequency of R-L21 among Basques is only 2-3% and not 20%. Obviously they had only samples from small isolated villages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If R1b brought steppe language to Iberia, then what language IEs had? Perhaps a farmer's language of Mykope/Caucasus, or Cucuteni-Tripolia?
    Historically/statistically speaking, language flows from farmers to hunter gatherers.

    There was the long established Atlantic Megalith culture centered on Portugal with branches north to Scandinavia and east into the Med providing a trading link from Sardinia to Sweden. If R1bs were following the neolithic trade network they would have had existing coastal trading settlements to join as a minority. So if they adopted a different language it would seem more likely to me that it would be the language / culture of the Atlantic Megalith people rather than the local HGs.

    If correct the distinction between the new arrivals and the Atlantic Megalith people which could potentially lead to R1b founder effects in certain regions could have been groups of them breaking away from the Atlantic Megalith sites to move to copper producing regions like Aldudes* in the Basque country or Ross Island in Ireland.

    so theoretical sequence
    R1b copper workers (from somewhere) follow the pre-existing neolithic trade routes in all directions
    -> as they spread along the trade routes some groups break away to found mining colonies whenever a good new source is found
    -> this leads to a localized founder effect in most places it happened but a dramatic one along the Atlantic coast because of the relatively low population density due to acid soil (caused by the leaching effect of heavy rainfall).

    #

    edit: actually Aldudes is more on the border of the current Basque country and Aquitaine but well within the old borders
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 20-06-15 at 12:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    Yeah of course Martinez Cruz et al. was wrong. The frequency of R-L21 among Basques is only 2-3% and not 20%. Obviously they had only samples from small isolated villages.
    I wonder if those small isolated villages were clustered in a particular region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We really need to check autosomal DNA of Cucuteni-Trypillian people.

    Did they have Near Eastern admixture similar to that found later in Yamnaya.
    If we rely on Neolithic DNA of the Balkan Carpathian agricole area, we can say NO: at least concerning Yamnya of Samara and East, where 'mediterranean' and other 'southwest-asian' or 'red sea' seem absent - but we cannot be sure the late metallurgic Cucuteni-Tripolye were of the same facture as first ones. Maybe Y-J2 akin to S-E Caspian region had reached the Carpathians borders already then? with more 'west-asian'; and yet, the 'westasian' of the steppic ones was more 'gedrosia-like', more eastern, very less near-eastern-like...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I had the territories of our old Europe were not as demographically saturated as nowaday in those times. We saw some ethnies tracing their ways among other ones more sedentized, without not too much mixings at first. the today archeologic discoveries of new sites ought to push us to more caution: 1- some 'snakes' moves can escape to archeologic controle and 2- we still have sites to find.
    Final Cucuteni Tripolye population was surely different from the first one: integration of HGs by time (Y-I2 of any sort + some old Y-C and Y-I1?) and new kinds of southerners with metallurgy + some steppic people themselves not without ancient Hgs?... the metallurgists I suppose rich for Y-J2 had surely mixed before with a lot of Y-E-V13 and evidently former Y-G2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I had the territories of our old Europe were not as demographically saturated as nowaday in those times. We saw some ethnies tracing their ways among other ones more sedentized, without not too much mixings at first. the today archeologic discoveries of new sites ought to push us to more caution: 1- some 'snakes' moves can escape to archeologic controle and 2- we still have sites to find.
    Final Cucuteni Tripolye population was surely different from the first one: integration of HGs by time (Y-I2 of any sort + some old Y-C and Y-I1?) and new kinds of southerners with metallurgy + some steppic people themselves not without ancient Hgs?... the metallurgists I suppose rich for Y-J2 had surely mixed before with a lot of Y-E-V13 and evidently former Y-G2a.
    I think this is very important. While all of the Yamnaya so far are pretty similar (we don't know about the western portion, which may be different), and Abanasievo was remarkably similar to them, Corded Ware seems pretty variable depending on the site. This shouldn't be such news because that's what the archaeolgists have been telling us. Cucuteni might be different from areas to their north as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wanted to make sure the title emphasized that this is not ancient dna despite the bow to ancient dna discoveries.

    New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M269: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html

    Abstract

    "The dissection of S116 in more than 1500 individuals from Atlantic Europe and the Iberian Peninsula has provided important clues about the controversial evolutionary history of M269. First, the results do not point to an origin of M269 in the Franco–Cantabrian refuge, owing to the lack of sublineage diversity within M269, which supports the new theories proposing its origin in Eastern Europe. Second, S116 shows frequency peaks and spatial distribution that differ from those previously proposed, indicating an origin farther west, and it also shows a high frequency in the Atlantic coastline. Third, an outstanding frequency of the DF27 sublineage has been found in Iberia, with a restricted distribution pattern inside this peninsula and a frequency maximum in the area of the Franco–Cantabrian refuge. This entire panorama indicates an old arrival of M269 into Western Europe, because it has generated at least two episodes of expansion in the Franco–Cantabrian area. This study demonstrates the importance of continuing the dissection of the M269 lineage in different European populations because the discovery and study of new sublineages can adjust or even completely revise the theories about European peopling, as has been the case for the place of origin of M269."

    It's behind a paywall so that's all I can offer. Obviously, nothing can be evaluated based on this. I'll see if at least the data tables are available.

    Ed. They are, and here's the link:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...2015114s1.html

    This is very interesting but why didn't you just put this on my thread about the Iberians? Why start a new one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Those frequency distribution tables for Iberia could be added to the tables being kept here, so that's a plus, but how that's supposed to prove when S116 entered Iberia and from what direction is beyond me. Maybe they flesh it out in the paper.
    In terms of those frequency distributions, it's interesting, and different from prior studies, I think, in that U-152 seems to be highest in Galicia and Asturias, and DF27 in Barcelona, where I would expect U-152 to be highest if U-152 is related to Urnfield.



    We might expect DF-27 to be highest there and down the east coast if it moved into Iberia from Central Europe.
    Its funny how you always criticize people for not staying on task or sticking to the subject yet you are doing the exact same thing. If you paid attention to my posts on my Iberian thread you would have found that the Iberians occupied all of the eastern and southern side of Iberia. And the DF-27 is very high there. The Celts never entered Iberia through Catalonia. They must have entered through the Basque Country (although the Basques did not originate there. They were located more south in Navarre and Aragon). These studies are showing more proof of what I theorized in my thread: that the Iberians were a proto-Indo-European people and that Iberians were (must have been) related to Basques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
    Its funny how you always criticize people for not staying on task or sticking to the subject yet you are doing the exact same thing. If you paid attention to my posts on my Iberian thread you would have found that the Iberians occupied all of the eastern and southern side of Iberia. And the DF-27 is very high there. The Celts never entered Iberia through Catalonia. They must have entered through the Basque Country (although the Basques did not originate there. They were located more south in Navarre and Aragon). These studies are showing more proof of what I theorized in my thread: that the Iberians were a proto-Indo-European people and that Iberians were (must have been) related to Basques.
    This is a thread devoted to a new paper. That's what we do here: we start threads when new papers appear so people will be aware of it, so people can discuss the merits and failings of it, and so that it can easily be found later through a search engine. Every paper or discussion of Iberia does not have to be posted in your thread because it touches upon something related to Iberia. You don't have a patent on the subject. We have numerous threads on this site about Iberia and many about the Indo-Europeans and many other issues, approaching them from the vantage point of different papers or time periods or authors or any number of things. However, you can't segue off into a prolonged discussion of Turkish ethnogenesis when the topic thread is Iberia, for example. Get it?

    This is elementary logic. I can't believe I have to explain these things.

    As far as the content of your post number 39 is concerned, it is on topic for this thread, and so I won't delete it.

    Just a word of advice for how to conduct yourself on this forum. Some of us have undoubtedly been studying these matters since probably before you were born, and at institutions of some prestige. We don't need you to tell us that the Iberian speaking peoples were predominantly located in the east. How to explain these things is another matter. We have read enough and studied enough that we know that very little is certain yet in any of this. Perhaps if you availed yourself of the search engine and read some more you would realize the same thing.

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    [QUOTE=Greying Wanderer;460323]There was the long established Atlantic Megalith culture centered on Portugal with branches north to Scandinavia and east into the Med providing a trading link from Sardinia to Sweden. If R1bs were following the neolithic trade network they would have had existing coastal trading settlements to join as a minority. So if they adopted a different language it would seem more likely to me that it would be the language / culture of the Atlantic Megalith people rather than the local HGs.

    If correct the distinction between the new arrivals and the Atlantic Megalith people which could potentially lead to R1b founder effects in certain regions could have been groups of them breaking away from the Atlantic Megalith sites to move to copper producing regions like Aldudes* in the Basque country or Ross Island in Ireland.

    so theoretical sequence
    R1b copper workers (from somewhere) follow the pre-existing neolithic trade routes in all directions
    -> as they spread along the trade routes some groups break away to found mining colonies whenever a good new source is found
    -> this leads to a localized founder effect in most places it happened but a dramatic one along the Atlantic coast because of the relatively low population density due to acid soil (caused by the leaching effect of heavy rainfall).


    very intresting suggestions; I was trying to find out an explication for Y-R1b among Basques, male elite loosing its I-Ean language for the "dominated" one; a male modest group of prospectors accepted at the mergin and marrying locally and loosing their language by time; all the way it doesn' t explain the total overwhelming domination of Y-R1b in West! It could only occur if this vanguard of R1b was arrived earlier tha the others, otherwise they would have kept their I-Ean language, I think;
    concerning ores and mining, is Basque country a hotspot in Iberia???
    extra-fact, more about I-Eans than Basque question: the 'gedrosia' compared to 'caucasus' component of some runs (same run) shows clearly the very most of 'gedrosia' came from NORTH in Western Europe: clear for Iberia, clear for Italy: so Greeks I-Ean speakers were not too rich for 'gedrosia' even if they had 'caucasus' - in West, 'gedrosia' (and ANE) came with I-Eans: and basque are STILL the sameproblem here: they the richer for 'gedrosia' in Iberia, without any 'caucasus'.
    basque language has its proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans: and Basque country are not the center of a BB's area...
    my poor head!
    a southern route for the supposed first non-I-Ean OR truly I-Ean courageous Y-R1b prospectors seems excluded - I keep nevertheless in mind your supposition concerning mining little groups, waiting more

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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;460594]
    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    There was the long established Atlantic Megalith culture centered on Portugal with branches north to Scandinavia and east into the Med providing a trading link from Sardinia to Sweden. If R1bs were following the neolithic trade network they would have had existing coastal trading settlements to join as a minority. So if they adopted a different language it would seem more likely to me that it would be the language / culture of the Atlantic Megalith people rather than the local HGs.

    If correct the distinction between the new arrivals and the Atlantic Megalith people which could potentially lead to R1b founder effects in certain regions could have been groups of them breaking away from the Atlantic Megalith sites to move to copper producing regions like Aldudes* in the Basque country or Ross Island in Ireland.

    so theoretical sequence
    R1b copper workers (from somewhere) follow the pre-existing neolithic trade routes in all directions
    -> as they spread along the trade routes some groups break away to found mining colonies whenever a good new source is found
    -> this leads to a localized founder effect in most places it happened but a dramatic one along the Atlantic coast because of the relatively low population density due to acid soil (caused by the leaching effect of heavy rainfall).


    very intresting suggestions; I was trying to find out an explication for Y-R1b among Basques, male elite loosing its I-Ean language for the "dominated" one; a male modest group of prospectors accepted at the mergin and marrying locally and loosing their language by time; all the way it doesn' t explain the total overwhelming domination of Y-R1b in West! It could only occur if this vanguard of R1b was arrived earlier tha the others, otherwise they would have kept their I-Ean language, I think;
    concerning ores and mining, is Basque country a hotspot in Iberia???
    extra-fact, more about I-Eans than Basque question: the 'gedrosia' compared to 'caucasus' component of some runs (same run) shows clearly the very most of 'gedrosia' came from NORTH in Western Europe: clear for Iberia, clear for Italy: so Greeks I-Ean speakers were not too rich for 'gedrosia' even if they had 'caucasus' - in West, 'gedrosia' (and ANE) came with I-Eans: and basque are STILL the sameproblem here: they the richer for 'gedrosia' in Iberia, without any 'caucasus'.
    basque language has its proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans: and Basque country are not the center of a BB's area...
    my poor head!
    a southern route for the supposed first non-I-Ean OR truly I-Ean courageous Y-R1b prospectors seems excluded - I keep nevertheless in mind your supposition concerning mining little groups, waiting more

    It could only occur if this vanguard of R1b was arrived earlier tha the others, otherwise they would have kept their I-Ean language, I think;
    yes, that's the only way I can imagine it happening
    concerning ores and mining, is Basque country a hotspot in Iberia???
    from googling, apparently there are some very old mining sites in the western pyrenees including copper from the aldudes valley near a place called Banca

    http://www.inrap.fr/preventive-archa...and-silver.htm

    Research carried out over the last few years has considerably increased our knowledge of mining and metallurgical activities at the extreme western end of the Pyrenees mountain chain. The diversity of Gallo-Roman sites found there is quite remarkable, such as the gold mines around Itxassou, the copper workings at Banca and the silver mines near the ancient city of Oiasso and in Haira Forest. Iron mines with links to farriering activities, such as the major site at Larla, have also been discovered. The mines of the Gallo-Roman period were actually started in the pre-Roman period as attested by Strabo who wrote of the flourishing gold works on the shores of the Bay of Biscay. Archaeological evidence shows that steel production began in the Late Iron Age. Geochemical and palynological studies carried out in a valley of the Western Pyrenees indicate that anthropic activities in the area were responsible for peaks in air pollution at various times in Protohistory. The first peak points to metal production in the first half of the 3rd millennium. Further to the east, in the Aspe Valley, a second peak relating to copper mining can be dated back 5,000 years and constitutes the oldest archaeological evidence available to us in the Pyrenees.
    currently just inside France but part of the Basque country originally i think

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...67590f5f93b4e0


    basque language has its proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans
    That is definitely interesting (and does speak against the theory imo) - it's not that surprising as the Atlantic Megalith sites seem (to me anyway) to show a correlation with mining also (but gold and silver e.g. SW England, S. Wales, Brittany) but I feel my theory would need for Basque to have an IE word for copper even if the rest were non-IE (or two words for copper perhaps).

    edit:

    and Basque country are not the center of a BB's area...
    Current Basque country true but didn't it used to extend all the way into Cantabria (edit: meant Gascony) with the current Basque country a refuge?

    (Having said that I don't know if Gascony has any connection to BB either - but worth mentioning the Basque territory as shrunk a bit in case it's relevant.)

    #

    more googling, more edits

    actually

    http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/...tal.names.html

    there are no indigenous Basque names recorded for any of tin, copper or bronze. Instead, we find only loan words: <eztainu> `tin', <kobre> `copper', and <brontze> `bronze'.
    But there is no doubt about the native status of <burdina> `iron', <berun> `lead', <urre> `gold', and <zilar> `silver'.
    that helps the theory i think
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 22-06-15 at 02:06. Reason: suckage

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    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I looked at the maps and percentages and I 'm tempted to say:
    let's be cautious with upstream and downstream distributions: when a big enough population keeps on unified enough and increases, it gradually produces new SNPs: as a rule the dynamics is: decreasing of older (more upstream) SNP* , the first downstream ones growing the biggest, the too new ones staying little for a time before themselves encreases in number too; the general trend is high %s of intermediary downstream SNPs, and low %s of AND older ones AND newer ones; in this population, the variance of SNPs downstream ligneages is great. At the opposite, when the population stays relatively small, the lucky upstream SNP (the intermediary ones, numerous at the relative level butnot numerous at the absolute level in this case) keeps on being the more numerous, producing few or/and loosing new donwstream SNPs and loosing the few more upstream ones; low variance in SNPs. in very very small populations, for the most a set or a small clan separated from the majority of brethren, everything can occur to one: retain only the more numerous SNP (most often) or at the contrary loose it and favorize a less dense SNP, modest until then; at any case, very low variance.
    in the case of Western Europe, we have: highest absolute %s of Y-R1b around Basque Country -(and Western Ireland, Brittany), highest % of whole-S116 in the same places - highest relative % of S116*/whole-S116 (derived) in Western Europe, the most in Ireland and around Basque Country –highest absolute % of DF27 in Basque Country decreasing by distance, but faster in West than in East –
    Discussion: a higher % of S116*/whole-S116 could be the signal of population being remained in little number for a while, so possibly having received its Y-R1b from other sources: but the huge and higher absolute % of DF27 and whole-R1b compared to other excludes for me that Basque Country was in debt to an other population for it – the relative % DF27/S116 of Basque Country is strong but not very higher than in Portugal, Andalusia and Madrid, and it is lower among “true” Basques than among “false Basques”! could it signify DF27 came from the periphery or immigrants in Basque Country? It could at the contrary signify that Basques or a population akin to Basques (because the unity overspanning the Pyrenees is evident, and corresponding in some part to Historic links), remained in a small enough number for a while at a S116* level, underwent a “baby boom” (at least concerning male chromosomes) producing after mutations a DF27 dynamic source; the surroundings populations, with less absolute % of DF27 but more relative DF27/S116, are rather the tributary ones to Basque nucleus because transmission(S) of high DF 27-plus low S116* explains the loss of the few S116* - there is a relative continuity in Iberia concerning DF27 and Y-R1b as a whole, spite local variations – at first sight, Galicia, Asturias (0% S116*/whole-S116 and low enough % of DF27/whole-S116) seem having received more variated ligneages of Y-R1b and some of them (U152, U106? …) from other places not around Basque Country, perhaps later? Later and smaller groups without territorial mating continuity: better chances to loose the older SNP, S116*
    Madrid sample (if valuable) shows the higher absolute % of DF27 after Basque Country, the second higher relative % DF27/whole-S116 after “false Basques” and a reasonable (middle) loss of relative % S116*/whole-S116: it could check an origin in the surroundings of Basque Country, what would correspond to History: Reconquista, people from peri-Basque places (see castellan phonetics). Places like Catalona, Alicante and Andalusia show some links to Basque genetic Y-DNA evolution but evidently with a more complicated story…Asturias, Galicia and Portugal could have had a globally same story, with a layer of DF27 from Western Pyrenees/Aquitaine areas at first, more in Portugal which shows more DF27/S116 and more S116*/whole-S116(Duro and Tajo rivers?), and different and more recently arrived Y-R1b SNPs in Galicia and Asturias in smaller spotty groups and not by global “contamination” (other Celts, Germanics).
    The (possible) explanation of basque Y-DNA situation by the colonization of an almost empty land by a small group is not too evident; Atlantic shores were densely inhabited since a long enough time. So S116*, scarce at first in Western Europe, had already got strength in around France (East at first) and seemingly gave birth to L21/L527 rather in Northwest and to DF27 in Southwest (Aquitaine?). So DF27 is “basque” compared to other Iberian places but was born in a slightly more northern place. The today presence of downstream SNPs of DF27 in far places as Ireland, Britain, North Sea shores, Scandinavia, Baltic shores, Poland and Ukraina does not lead me to search an eastern place of birth to it. If Y-R1b was already present somewhere West during the last Atlantic megalithic times or the plain Atlantic Bronze, these curious geographic distribution could be easily explained, principally by maritime moves. Only an hypothesis at this stage of my picked up knowledge… A try.
    All the way I have some difficulties to swallow the dates of coalescence given in this survey, according to my other readings.

  19. #44
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    The (possible) explanation of basque Y-DNA situation by the colonization of an almost empty land by a small group is not too evident; Atlantic shores were densely inhabited since a long enough time.
    Just to stress I'm not suggesting that exactly. As you say the Atlantic Megalith culture was around for a long time along the Atlantic coast. I'm suggesting that if a new group showed up and moved inland to a relatively lightly populated region for a new reason e.g. copper mining, there is the possibility of a dramatic founder effect.

    To me the main point is

    1) the gap between the western range of LBK and the Atlantic coast
    2) the way the gap seems to map onto the Atlantic coast bio-region
    3) the Atlantic coast bio-region having acid soil
    4) wheat not liking acid soil
    5) the epicenters of some of the R1b clades seem to be centered along the Atlantic coast

    My thing about copper mining is just one possible explanation. No doubt there are other, maybe better, ones.

  20. #45
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,408

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Just to stress I'm not suggesting that exactly. As you say the Atlantic Megalith culture was around for a long time along the Atlantic coast. I'm suggesting that if a new group showed up and moved inland to a relatively lightly populated region for a new reason e.g. copper mining, there is the possibility of a dramatic founder effect.

    To me the main point is
    1) the gap between the western range of LBK and the Atlantic coast
    2) the way the gap seems to map onto the Atlantic coast bio-region
    3) the Atlantic coast bio-region having acid soil
    4) wheat not liking acid soil
    5) the epicenters of some of the R1b clades seem to be centered along the Atlantic coast

    My thing about copper mining is just one possible explanation. No doubt there are other, maybe better, ones.
    OK; after all Basques have proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans. And I make general statements concerning ancient demography because even the scholars knowledge is still spotty and insufficient. Just that: it seems megalithic cultures had (globally) a stronger effect upon demography encrease than BB, in some places, even in Germany.
    I would be glad knowing the linguistic origin of these metals words...

  21. #46
    Elite member
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    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK; after all Basques have proper words for basic metals, not I-Eans. And I make general statements concerning ancient demography because even the scholars knowledge is still spotty and insufficient. Just that: it seems megalithic cultures had (globally) a stronger effect upon demography encrease than BB, in some places, even in Germany.
    I would be glad knowing the linguistic origin of these metals words...
    Sure, maybe BB is more correlation than causation. My main point is there are clear and dramatic founder effects along the Atlantic coast which need explaining.

  22. #47
    Regular Member Johannes's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-12-14
    Posts
    435

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1

    Ethnic group
    Celtic/Germanic/Basque
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    in the case of Western Europe, we have: highest absolute %s of Y-R1b around Basque Country -(and Western Ireland, Brittany), highest % of whole-S116 in the same places - highest relative % of S116*/whole-S116 (derived) in Western Europe, the most in Ireland and around Basque Country –highest absolute % of DF27 in Basque Country decreasing by distance, but faster in West than in East – Discussion: a higher % of S116*/whole-S116 could be the signal of population being remained in little number for a while, so possibly having received its Y-R1b from other sources: but the huge and higher absolute % of DF27 and whole-R1b compared to other excludes for me that Basque Country was in debt to an other population for it – the relative % DF27/S116 of Basque Country is strong but not very higher than in Portugal, Andalusia and Madrid, and it is lower among “true” Basques than among “false Basques”! could it signify DF27 came from the periphery or immigrants in Basque Country? It could at the contrary signify that Basques or a population akin to Basques (because the unity overspanning the Pyrenees is evident, and corresponding in some part to Historic links), remained in a small enough number for a while at a S116* level, underwent a “baby boom” (at least concerning male chromosomes) producing after mutations a DF27 dynamic source; the surroundings populations, with less absolute % of DF27 but more relative DF27/S116, are rather the tributary ones to Basque nucleus because transmission(S) of high DF 27-plus low S116* explains the loss of the few S116* - there is a relative continuity in Iberia concerning DF27 and Y-R1b as a whole, spite local variations – at first sight, Galicia, Asturias (0% S116*/whole-S116 and low enough % of DF27/whole-S116) seem having received more variated ligneages of Y-R1b and some of them (U152, U106? …) from other places not around Basque Country, perhaps later? Later and smaller groups without territorial mating continuity: better chances to loose the older SNP, S116*
    Madrid sample (if valuable) shows the higher absolute % of DF27 after Basque Country, the second higher relative % DF27/whole-S116 after “false Basques” and a reasonable (middle) loss of relative % S116*/whole-S116: it could check an origin in the surroundings of Basque Country, what would correspond to History: Reconquista, people from peri-Basque places (see castellan phonetics). Places like Catalona, Alicante and Andalusia show some links to Basque genetic Y-DNA evolution but evidently with a more complicated story…Asturias, Galicia and Portugal could have had a globally same story, with a layer of DF27 from Western Pyrenees/Aquitaine areas at first, more in Portugal which shows more DF27/S116 and more S116*/whole-S116(Duro and Tajo rivers?), and different and more recently arrived Y-R1b SNPs in Galicia and Asturias in smaller spotty groups and not by global “contamination” (other Celts, Germanics).
    The (possible) explanation of basque Y-DNA situation by the colonization of an almost empty land by a small group is not too evident; Atlantic shores were densely inhabited since a long enough time. So S116*, scarce at first in Western Europe, had already got strength in around France (East at first) and seemingly gave birth to L21/L527 rather in Northwest and to DF27 in Southwest (Aquitaine?). So DF27 is “basque” compared to other Iberian places but was born in a slightly more northern place. The today presence of downstream SNPs of DF27 in far places as Ireland, Britain, North Sea shores, Scandinavia, Baltic shores, Poland and Ukraina does not lead me to search an eastern place of birth to it. If Y-R1b was already present somewhere West during the last Atlantic megalithic times or the plain Atlantic Bronze, these curious geographic distribution could be easily explained, principally by maritime moves. Only an hypothesis at this stage of my picked up knowledge… A try. All the way I have some difficulties to swallow the dates of coalescence given in this survey, according to my other readings.

    I sincerely doubt DF27 came or originated from the Atlantic. Its clear form the maps that it had an eastern origin because if it had an Atlantic origin it would show more massive R1b DF-27 in th western side of Iberia.

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