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View Poll Results: Source of proto-Indo-European language

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  • R1a

    20 29.85%
  • R1b

    23 34.33%
  • Cucuteni-Tripolye

    9 13.43%
  • Caucasus-Mykop

    15 22.39%
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Thread: Where did proto-IE language start?

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight
    R1b didn't cross into the Northern side of the Caucasus until the copper age
    I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

    1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

    2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

    3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

    As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

    Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

    There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

    1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

    2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

    3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

    As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

    Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

    There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.
    Can you link me a source that R1b-V88 tribes were indeed Villanbruna-like? If this is true then that would mean that R1b have indeed made a autosomal contribution to the Chadic speaking Tribes before PIE's creation. Anyhow as far as R1b/R1a pie is concerned, I'm going by this link. If the link is outdated besides recent updates, is it okay if I can be directed to a better link; like proff that R1a/R1b didn't intermingle with eachother until the Bronze Age giving rise to R1b dominant Centum language and R1a Dominant Centum languages? :) True that R1b was the Samara Culture north of the Caucasus during the Mesolithic but the punch point is that they were not intermarrying with R1a tribes during the Mesolithic. According to this link they didn't intermarry until the copper age but I'm willing to accept a latter date ^_^


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml



  3. #253
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Can you link me a source that R1b-V88 tribes were indeed Villanbruna-like? If this is true then that would mean that R1b have indeed made a autosomal contribution to the Chadic speaking Tribes before PIE's creation. Anyhow as far as R1b/R1a pie is concerned, I'm going by this link. If the link is outdated besides recent updates, is it okay if I can be directed to a better link; like proff that R1a/R1b didn't intermingle with eachother until the Bronze Age giving rise to R1b dominant Centum language and R1a Dominant Centum languages? :) True that R1b was the Samara Culture north of the Caucasus during the Mesolithic but the punch point is that they were not intermarrying with R1a tribes during the Mesolithic. According to this link they didn't intermarry until the copper age but I'm willing to accept a latter date ^_^


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml


    Because they assume that Villabruna and V88 where together in eastern anatolia....with villabruna going through the balkans and v88 into the levant and then africa

    And clearly PIE was not only from haplogroups R1a or R1b , because the first split from PIE happened in Anatolia ~4000BC.................PIE came from many HG most likely around the north-caucasus area
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Because they assume that Villabruna and V88 where together in eastern anatolia....with villabruna going through the balkans and v88 into the levant and then africa

    And clearly PIE was not only from haplogroups R1a or R1b , because the first split from PIE happened in Anatolia ~4000BC.................PIE came from many HG most likely around the north-caucasus area
    We'll have to wait to see what the Gedmatch results have to say^_^. Anyhow, I'm certainly not denying that Ydna G and possibly J tribes were intermingled in PIE territory; its linguistically and genetically evident since the Proto-Kartvelian speaking tribes and PIE loaned words with each-other.


    Bumping my Sources from an earlier post:

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cau...ages#ref604620



    https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/confer...Kartvelian.pdf




    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...velian/ɣwino-

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

    1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

    2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

    3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

    As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

    Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

    There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.
    Let us know when this chudik genome is at gedmatch. We could solve some mystery by running admixtures.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  6. #256
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think in some cases extant ancient samples might be misleading rather than illuminating. Looking at modern distributions of R, it still looks like these haplotypes originated with a migration out of south-eastern Asia via the southern to the Middle East. All those basal haplogroups in contemporary Indo-Iranian speakers (Kurds, Tajiks, various groups from Pakistan) and the rare R-PH155 reported by Hallast, Zadik et al. [Mol Biol Evol (2015) 32 (3): 661-673. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msu327] in Bhutan are very hard to explain with a migration from the north.

    Mal'ta boy likely represents an early ultimately unsuccesful attempt of settlement in the north. The absence of indigenous R in the Americas would support this as well. R was established in the north and Europe with a migration from the Middle Eastern Zarzian along with the bow and the domesticated dog.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

    1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

    2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

    3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

    As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

    Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

    There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.
    According to this academic paper R1b (like R1a) is originally from West Asia. This is only 1 paper, I've many of such academic papers where they conclude that R1b (like R1a) is from West Asia.


    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think in some cases extant ancient samples might be misleading rather than illuminating. Looking at modern distributions of R, it still looks like these haplotypes originated with a migration out of south-eastern Asia via the southern to the Middle East. All those basal haplogroups in contemporary Indo-Iranian speakers (Kurds, Tajiks, various groups from Pakistan) and the rare R-PH155 reported by Hallast, Zadik et al. [Mol Biol Evol (2015) 32 (3): 661-673. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msu327] in Bhutan are very hard to explain with a migration from the north.

    Mal'ta boy likely represents an early ultimately unsuccesful attempt of settlement in the north. The absence of indigenous R in the Americas would support this as well. R was established in the north and Europe with a migration from the Middle Eastern Zarzian along with the bow and the domesticated dog.
    Probably correct, we might have an earlier ydna R skeleton waiting to be discovered. Anyways just curious mostly, do you know of any way to solve the mystery; of why R1b-V88 tends to be linked mostly to Chaddic Speakers? ^_^

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    R was established in the north and Europe with a migration from the Middle Eastern Zarzian along with the bow and the domesticated dog.
    Dogs were most likely domesticated either in Central Asia or in Europe, not in the Middle East:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/science/a...r-dogs/411196/

    Other (a bit less likely) places where dogs could be domesticated are also in Northern Eurasia.

    Western Siberia and North-East Asia (China) were mentioned as well. The Middle East wasn't.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think in some cases extant ancient samples might be misleading rather than illuminating. Looking at modern distributions of R, it still looks like these haplotypes originated with a migration out of south-eastern Asia via the southern to the Middle East. All those basal haplogroups in contemporary Indo-Iranian speakers (Kurds, Tajiks, various groups from Pakistan) and the rare R-PH155 reported by Hallast, Zadik et al. [Mol Biol Evol (2015) 32 (3): 661-673. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msu327] in Bhutan are very hard to explain with a migration from the north.
    The only sample of basal R1b-L389* (and L389 is ancestral to M269) known so far, is from Puerto Rico. So according to your logic, R1b-L389 must have emerged 17,200 years ago (because this is how old L389 is) in America, and must have migrated to Eurasia on reed boats, ca. 16,800 years ago (TMRCA), where it later gave rise to R1b-P297 and ultimately to R1b-M269.

    Really, looking at modern distributions is not such a good idea...

    Just like people migrated from Europe to Puerto Rico, people also migrated from elsewhere to Pakistan.

    The absence of indigenous R in the Americas would support this as well.
    If by "indigenous" you mean basal, then there is basal R1b-L389* in the Americas. And nowhere else.

    The only basal R1b-L389* identified so far is this guy from Puerto Rico (id:HG00640 PUR):

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L389/

    I'm waiting for Genetiker to come and say that it proves R1b migration to America 16,500 years ago.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The only sample of basal R1b-L389* (and L389 is ancestral to M269) known so far, is from Puerto Rico. So according to your logic, R1b-L389 must have emerged 17,200 years ago (because this is how old L389 is) in America, and must have migrated to Eurasia on reed boats, ca. 16,800 years ago (TMRCA), where it later gave rise to R1b-P297 and ultimately to R1b-M269.

    Really, looking at modern distributions is not such a good idea...

    Just like people migrated from Europe to Puerto Rico, people also migrated from elsewhere to Pakistan.



    If by "indigenous" you mean basal, then there is basal R1b-L389* in the Americas. And nowhere else.

    The only basal R1b-L389* identified so far is this guy from Puerto Rico (id:HG00640 PUR):

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L389/

    I'm waiting for Genetiker to come and say that it proves R1b migration to America 16,500 years ago.

    That's interesting if confirmed. Well there was an old R1b map that showed that R1b is firmly in Eastern Canada and stretches all over North America almost uniformally. Maybe that could be revisited, maybe we can find at least some R1b-L389* samples in Eastern Canada; granted we might find European R1 Clades due to settler assimilation. If this is true, we might find indigenous R1b in Eastern Canada.





    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._R_(Y-DNA).PNG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    That's interesting if confirmed. Well there was an old R1b map that showed that R1b is firmly in Eastern Canada and stretches all over North America almost uniformally. Maybe that could be revisited, maybe we can find at least some R1b-L389* samples in Eastern Canada; granted we might find European R1 Clades due to settler assimilation. If this is true, we might find indigenous R1b in Eastern Canada.





    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._R_(Y-DNA).PNG
    I have a suspition that R1b in natives of east coast was introduced by Vikings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have a suspition that R1b in natives of east coast was introduced by Vikings.
    Probably true but in order for that to work, the ydna needs to be either R1b-U106, R1a, I1 or a newly discovered subclade of R1b-L21; if the Vikings left behind some slaves.

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    http://themotherhouseofthegoddess.co...a-Gimbutas.jpg



    Neolithic fairies with farmer genes & magical powers repulsing horse-riding Indo-European invaders:

    http://giphy.com/gifs/ixLoZvfG8vtNC



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86dlgoeyYTI


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have a suspition that R1b in natives of east coast was introduced by Vikings.
    And Celts plus later french and british colonizers.
    The highst density of R1 among Indians in around
    Hudson Bay, so conclusion should be obvious.
    It also can explain, why mt X is there, with similar
    density among indians as R1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This quote was from Huitzilopochtli.
    I allready gave you a refrence about it. You can;t say, that language is only 5000
    years old, if you admire absolutly scientific authority, becasue lingusts are divided
    on that matter (what simply suggest, that they have no idea, how old can be the
    language, because they have no linguometer which can do this, and this is the sad
    truth, which you cannot accept, becasue it would ruin your whole worldview, which
    must be explained since the beginning to the end, even, if this has to be a fairy tail,
    which is "current truth" until something new will be developed. It is exactly the same,
    what did ancient chroniclers, who wanted to tell about unknown past.

    What is actually moronic is to tie IE to R1 development of 20-40 kya.
    Yes, every moronic, when all signs on the earth and sky
    are showing, that R1 people where speakers of IE language.
    But isn't moronic in your case to dream up baseless theories
    which are falling one after another year by year...

    By such measure you will claim soon that Adam and Eve spoke PIE.
    Unfortunatly your knowlegde about them is very poor,
    becasue they did not live in fictional eons in which you
    belive, and languages emerged some 2000 years after
    them. It is the time to do backlogs in basic literature.

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The only sample of basal R1b-L389* (and L389 is ancestral to M269) known so far, is from Puerto Rico. So according to your logic, R1b-L389 must have emerged 17,200 years ago (because this is how old L389 is) in America, and must have migrated to Eurasia on reed boats, ca. 16,800 years ago (TMRCA), where it later gave rise to R1b-P297 and ultimately to R1b-M269.

    Really, looking at modern distributions is not such a good idea...
    I've just seen this. Apparently you did not grasp the point I was trying to make at all, so this discussion will probably lead nowhere. But I feel compelled to address this amazing strawman.

    Modern distributions are very informative if one carefully examines a lineage's internal hierarchy. A perfect example of this methodology can be found in Underhill's study of R1a, which should have put an end to the rampant fantasies about an origin in Eastern Europe or Siberia. The only scenario in which a Siberian origin for the haplotypes under R* would make sense would involve continuous migrations from the north in South Asia since the Paleolithic. Of course, this is completely silly since most migrations went into the opposite direction because population growth and technological advances took place in the south.

  18. #268
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    I allready gave you a refrence about it. You can;t say, that language is only 5000
    years old, if you admire absolutly scientific authority, becasue lingusts are divided
    on that matter (what simply suggest, that they have no idea, how old can be the
    language, because they have no linguometer which can do this, and this is the sad
    truth, which you cannot accept, becasue it would ruin your whole worldview, which
    must be explained since the beginning to the end, even, if this has to be a fairy tail,
    which is "current truth" until something new will be developed. It is exactly the same,
    what did ancient chroniclers, who wanted to tell about unknown past.



    Yes, every moronic, when all signs on the earth and sky
    are showing, that R1 people where speakers of IE language.
    But isn't moronic in your case to dream up baseless theories
    which are falling one after another year by year...



    Unfortunatly your knowlegde about them is very poor,
    becasue they did not live in fictional eons in which you
    belive, and languages emerged some 2000 years after
    them. It is the time to do backlogs in basic literature.
    Really, instead of listening to those confused linguists and their convoluted theories, we should accept the propositions of a man who calls himself 'IndoeuR1opean'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    I allready gave you a refrence about it. You can;t say, that language is only 5000
    years old, if you admire absolutly scientific authority, becasue lingusts are divided
    on that matter (what simply suggest, that they have no idea, how old can be the
    language, because they have no linguometer which can do this, and this is the sad
    truth, which you cannot accept, becasue it would ruin your whole worldview, which
    must be explained since the beginning to the end, even, if this has to be a fairy tail
    Sounds like a classic case of the tale wagging the dog.
    Misseri e sceccu cu tuttâ tistera
    comu vi l’haju a diri, a vastunati
    ca mancu haju Sali di salera!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I've just seen this. Apparently you did not grasp the point I was trying to make at all, so this discussion will probably lead nowhere. But I feel compelled to address this amazing strawman.

    Modern distributions are very informative if one carefully examines a lineage's internal hierarchy. A perfect example of this methodology can be found in Underhill's study of R1a, which should have put an end to the rampant fantasies about an origin in Eastern Europe or Siberia. The only scenario in which a Siberian origin for the haplotypes under R* would make sense would involve continuous migrations from the north in South Asia since the Paleolithic. Of course, this is completely silly since most migrations went into the opposite direction because population growth and technological advances took place in the south.
    It seems that Underhill's claim is that R1a diversified in Iran. If that is the case how did it get to Karelia? Why is the oldest R found in Siberia? Why are the closest relatives of R (Q, N, O) found in Siberia or East Asia? Aren't there significant level of ANE ancestry found in every population R is found? Didn't pottery move east to Russia from a Far East Asian home?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    It seems that Underhill's claim is that R1a diversified in Iran. If that is the case how did it get to Karelia? Why is the oldest R found in Siberia? Why are the closest relatives of R (Q, N, O) found in Siberia or East Asia? Aren't there significant level of ANE ancestry found in every population R is found? Didn't pottery move east to Russia from a Far East Asian home?
    The same way how Y-DNA hg. J1 get to Karelia. They found also very ancient J1 in Karelia. And as far as we know hg. Y-DNA J1 was not native to that area.

    R1a could be part of the first farmers who migrated into the Steppes. At one point in history the Neolithic farmers invaded the Steppes from Iran.


    It is possible that R* is from Siberia. But According to the established ( and peer reviewed ) academic world R1b* and R1a* are from the Iranian Plateau - Zagros Mountains..



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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    It seems that Underhill's claim is that R1a diversified in Iran. If that is the case how did it get to Karelia? Why is the oldest R found in Siberia? Why are the closest relatives of R (Q, N, O) found in Siberia or East Asia? Aren't there significant level of ANE ancestry found in every population R is found? Didn't pottery move east to Russia from a Far East Asian home?
    From first R1a in Iran to R1a found in Karelia at least 10,000 years passed. It is long enough time to walk around earth few times , not mentioning getting to Karelia which is 3,000 km away. Supposing they really diversified in Iran into R1a and R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    we should accept the propositions of a man who calls himself 'IndoeuR1opean'.
    It is a very relevant and important argument, really...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    It seems that Underhill's claim is that R1a diversified in Iran. If that is the case how did it get to Karelia? Why is the oldest R found in Siberia? Why are the closest relatives of R (Q, N, O) found in Siberia or East Asia? Aren't there significant level of ANE ancestry found in every population R is found? Didn't pottery move east to Russia from a Far East Asian home?

    I can only echo the conclusions by Semenov in the following publication:

    http://ejournal8.com/journals_n/1461227205.pdf

    The Middle Eastern Zarzian culture is among the first to show unambiguous of dog domestication (the very first being the neighbouring Natufians). Even more importantly, due to their location the Zarzians were the first Eurasians to adopt the bow from Africa. It is hardly surprising therefore that this population experienced a period of auspicious expansion into several directions.

    N* and O* aren't very related to R* at all. Besides Q, the closest relative would be paragroup P1*, which still has a significant distribution in insular South-East Asia.

    As for the autosomal ANE component: the purported relationship with R is far from solid. We already have several ancient samples which show no traces of said component despite their R1b haplogroups. I think it should be obvious to anyone who has been paying attention that the Mal'ta boy had a highly diverse ancestry, with significant affinity to South-East Asia - the most likely origin of his Y-DNA.

    Pottery most likely spread to far Eastern Europe from China or Japan. These movements are unlikely to have involved R haplotypes.

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    author mentioned "sino-caucasian" language. Is there this kind of language group in the world? I always thought that Notratic is related with R, Q.
    This approach could also work for positivecharacteristics as longevity. For example, in popular and scientific literature the peoples of HunzaBurushaskiand Abkhazians considered to contain higher percentage of long-living people thatmost other populations. Though this information is disputable and should be verified, it should bementioned, that both peoples belong to Sino-Caucasian language macrofamily and according to[11] the spread of the languages of that kind is associated with Y-DNA haplogroups Q and R.

    It is known that the Chinese borrowed a number of words dealing with wheels and chariots from Indo-European sources. Archeology tells us that the art of making spoked wheels, and thus chariots light enough to be drawn by horses, was developed at the western end of Asia, around the southern Urals, in the third and early second millennia B.C. We do not know for certain that the mummy people used chariots, but given the known facts, it seems likely that they did, and that they transmitted this know-how to the Shan tribe of Chinese. There is no doubt that a sizable chunk of ancient Chinese vocabulary came from Indo-European—not only to do with chariotry, but also in architecture, divination, healing and other matters.

    The Riddle of the White `Mummies' Of Ancient China,
    By Dr. Alexander Jacob

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-(Chinese-guy) (#5)
    Last edited by johen; 18-12-16 at 00:10.

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