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View Poll Results: Source of proto-Indo-European language

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  • R1a

    19 30.16%
  • R1b

    21 33.33%
  • Cucuteni-Tripolye

    8 12.70%
  • Caucasus-Mykop

    15 23.81%
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Thread: Where did proto-IE language start?

  1. #376
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    I would go for somewhere in the 5500 BCE-7000 BCE range. But this is a topic that needs more research. Another important point in light of the most recent genetics papers is that the language families that have the most in common with PIE (Uralic, Yukaghir, Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, ...) are all in the north-east. This makes a PIE homeland south of the Caucasus very improbable to me. See also the papers 'Inferring The World Tree Of Languages From Word Lists' and 'Support for linguistic macrofamilies from weighted sequence alignment' by Gerhard Jger.

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    Where are the "None of the Above" and "All of the Above" options?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ancient languages from R1a people (as Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian) consists exclusively Indo-European words, 100% percent of them. While among languages, which are influenced by R1b (or even were totally carriers of R1b), the non-Indo-European caracteristics are foundable. It doesn't mean that those languages are non-Indo-European, but just because of that, i think that IE language is originally from R1a people.

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    I agree with that. All the most innovative Indo-European languages are majority R1b. Sanskrit and Lithuanian are the most archaic Indo-European languages, and they are both R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I agree with that. All the most innovative Indo-European languages are majority R1b. Sanskrit and Lithuanian are the most archaic Indo-European languages, and they are both R1a.
    Lithuanian is the most archaic of the modern Indo-European languages, but i would not compare it with Sanskrit. It's a bit exaggerated about Lithuanian archaism imho. Phonologically Lithuanian is the most archaic IE-language in some obvious respects, e.g. preserving diphtongs and word-final syllables, but in other respects Lithuanian greatly innovated. For example, verbal system of Old Church Slavonic (also proto-Slavic) is more archaic than Lithuanian. But anyways, R1a languages are in general more archaic, and this is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    Ancient languages from R1a people (as Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian) consists exclusively Indo-European words, 100% percent of them. While among languages, which are influenced by R1b (or even were totally carriers of R1b), the non-Indo-European caracteristics are foundable. It doesn't mean that those languages are non-Indo-European, but just because of that, i think that IE language is originally from R1a people.
    Hi, Srbadija. I'm afraid I disagree on that. The objection lies in the centum/satem split itself. PIE "h1ekwos", very close to Latin "equus", can also evolve into Sanskrit "as'va". But there is no way the Sanskrit "sh" sound can evolve into "k" or "kw". Which means that Centum forms have to be the original ones, and Satem the derived ones. In other words, if you associate Centum with (some) R1b tribes, and Satem with (some) R1a tribes, then R1b must have been the speakers of the most "primitive" forms of PIE. Or at least they were the clans that preserved the original phonology over a longer period.

    This said, I am quite prepared to agree with you that as Centum PIE moved west, it was gradually altered by the lexical additions and phonological influences from the substrate languages it superseded.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    can also evolve into Sanskrit "as'va".
    Hi, hrvclv. Indeed, it can evolve into Sanskrit "as'va" but the real question is did actually Sanskrit "as'va" developed from "h1ekwos" ? For example, it is not 100% sure that all proto-Indo-Europeans spoke literally the same language. So it is not sure that "h1ekwos" was the common word for all ancestral IE languages, perhaps there was some similar-related word. That is what is mistery in the question you raise, but, it could be as you said, but some linguistical problems about PIE are not solved yet, and perhaps, won't ever be, since reconstructions don't give us everything and literally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    the real question is did actually Sanskrit "as'va" developed from "h1ekwos" ?
    Well, there may of course have been various dialects, at any stage in the development of IE languages, before the known major splits just as well as after them. But dialects by definition descend from a common core. So this approach only pushes the problem back in time. I'd say there are a number of things we can have reasonable doubt about, but centuries of reliable academic research have shown that "as'va" is quite regularly descended from "h1ekwos".

    There are hundreds of cognates to confirm that. Compare these Latin / Sanskrit cognates :

    octo / as'ta ; decem / das'a ; viginti / wims'ati ; ocu(lus) / as'i ; tex(ere) / tas'(ti) ; canis / s'van ; etc...

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    Yes, BS-II languages underwent Satemization after Celtic and Germanic already left the core area.
    Reasons to Satemization are unclear. It is a repeating phenomenon in languages. French had their own Satemization during Middle Ages (if I am not mistaken), such as “century”, where originally k sound became s before i/e just like in Late PIE dialects that gave rise to BS/II.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Well, there may of course have been various dialects, at any stage in the development of IE languages, before the known major splits just as well as after them. But dialects by definition descend from a common core. So this approach only pushes the problem back in time. I'd say there are a number of things we can have reasonable doubt about, but centuries of reliable academic research have shown that "as'va" is quite regularly descended from "h1ekwos".

    There are hundreds of cognates to confirm that. Compare these Latin / Sanskrit cognates :

    octo / as'ta ; decem / das'a ; viginti / wims'ati ; ocu(lus) / as'i ; tex(ere) / tas'(ti) ; canis / s'van ; etc...
    Well, i don't say your statement is false, but just, that 1 word (example) can't explain us whole situation about proto-IE languages. For example, it is hard to say how R1a languages (Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian) sounded with a certain amount of certitude before Satemization.

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    If PIE doesn't come from South of Caucasus, doesn't it come (ultimately) from Siberia (ANE-EHG)?

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    The Dnieper Rapids.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There is no common word neither for copper nor for iron. That means it was not spread during copper or iron age. It was spread during neolithic from Anatolia, in Balkans and Danube valley. Danubian neolithic culture based on bull power and 4 wheeled chariot, was civilization which spoke PIE. We must know that barbarian s take the language and culture from civilization and not vice versa. Neolithic was civilization while steppe people were nomads, without civilization, they were barbaric people. They were incorporated into Old Europe just like Visigoths and others were incorporated into Roman Empire, and just like them they were assimilated into the language of the civilization.
    Also there was no only one spread. It is against all linguistic evidence, which tells us that every IE language in itself is mixing of 2 or more IE dialects, for example english bull and cow, albanian buall and kau, slavic bivo and goved etc. These are variants PB and KG.
    The word for copper varies from one language to another: copper and other derivatives are later dvelopment from name Cyprus which produced it. Bakar in balkans is borrowed from turkish. So we must exclude the two names.
    In latin copper was called AES, AERIS
    In baltic it is called varš, varis, (latin and baltic, seems a bit simmilar)
    In slavic it is called MED, медь, медзь, мідь, miedź
    In greek it was called chalkós
    In italian it is called rame, just like in albanian rem, although I don't where this word comes from.

    Iron on the other hand:
    Latin ferrum
    baltic dzelzs, geležies (simmilar to slavic, but not others)
    Slavic Zhelez, железо, but also GVOZDE, гвожђе
    Albanian hekur, from gr. anchyra
    greek Sidero
    Germanic Eisen,
    Celtic iarann (iron), iarainn

    So there was no Whole IE spread in the copper or iron age, but it was earlier. Barbaric people from the east were incorporated and assimilated into Old Europe becaming IE, and they spred in diffrent times in all directions.

    There are 4 genetic groups linked to IE:
    1. R1a were blonde, blue-eyed, blood group B, mtDna U5, satem language, they formed balto-slavic, and indo-iranian families of peoples.
    2. R1b were red-haired, freckling, Rh-, some of them Alpine race, in the begining basque language, and the assimilated into IE by civilized neolithic farmers, and today speaking kentum language.
    3. Haplogroup I in the north, blonde, blue-eyed, creating germanic family.
    4. True IE, neolithic farmers: G, Ev13, J2b, and mtDna H, blood group A, speaking old Centum, from them were created PaleoBalkanic peoples: Greeks, illyrians, thracians, and Anatolians.

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    Indo-European languages began with a non-Indo-European language. Evidence is hidden in the rich polysynthesis of the northwestern Caucasian languages. Such scientists as N.S.Trubetskoy, S.A. Starostin, V.V.Ivanov, J. Colarusso came very close to the solution.The Caucasus is the only territory geographically combining the Kurgan and Anatolian hypotheses together. I am sure that this is not accidental. If not today, then in 50, 100, 500 years, computer simulation methods will prove it. Everything has its time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    There is no common word neither for copper nor for iron. That means it was not spread during copper or iron age. It was spread during neolithic from Anatolia, in Balkans and Danube valley. Danubian neolithic culture based on bull power and 4 wheeled chariot, was civilization which spoke PIE. We must know that barbarian s take the language and culture from civilization and not vice versa. Neolithic was civilization while steppe people were nomads, without civilization, they were barbaric people. They were incorporated into Old Europe just like Visigoths and others were incorporated into Roman Empire, and just like them they were assimilated into the language of the civilization.
    Also there was no only one spread. It is against all linguistic evidence, which tells us that every IE language in itself is mixing of 2 or more IE dialects, for example english bull and cow, albanian buall and kau, slavic bivo and goved etc. These are variants PB and KG.
    The word for copper varies from one language to another: copper and other derivatives are later dvelopment from name Cyprus which produced it. Bakar in balkans is borrowed from turkish. So we must exclude the two names.
    In latin copper was called AES, AERIS
    In baltic it is called varš, varis, (latin and baltic, seems a bit simmilar)
    In slavic it is called MED, медь, медзь, мідь, miedź
    In greek it was called chalkós
    In italian it is called rame, just like in albanian rem, although I don't where this word comes from.

    Iron on the other hand:
    Latin ferrum
    baltic dzelzs, geležies (simmilar to slavic, but not others)
    Slavic Zhelez, железо, but also GVOZDE, гвожђе
    Albanian hekur, from gr. anchyra
    greek Sidero
    Germanic Eisen,
    Celtic iarann (iron), iarainn

    So there was no Whole IE spread in the copper or iron age, but it was earlier. Barbaric people from the east were incorporated and assimilated into Old Europe becaming IE, and they spred in diffrent times in all directions.

    There are 4 genetic groups linked to IE:
    1. R1a were blonde, blue-eyed, blood group B, mtDna U5, satem language, they formed balto-slavic, and indo-iranian families of peoples.
    2. R1b were red-haired, freckling, Rh-, some of them Alpine race, in the begining basque language, and the assimilated into IE by civilized neolithic farmers, and today speaking kentum language.
    3. Haplogroup I in the north, blonde, blue-eyed, creating germanic family.
    4. True IE, neolithic farmers: G, Ev13, J2b, and mtDna H, blood group A, speaking old Centum, from them were created PaleoBalkanic peoples: Greeks, illyrians, thracians, and Anatolians.




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  16. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Адам. Б. К. View Post
    Indo-European languages began with a non-Indo-European language.
    I agree with that statement. PIE must have evolved from an earlier non-Indo-European language that belonged to an earlier language family. Even proto-Nostratic (if it existed) began with a non-Nostratic language. The only language that didn't begin with an earlier language is proto-World (again, if it existed). Proto-World must have arisen from a previous form of communication, but if it wasn't fully grammatical (and every existing human language is fully grammatical) then perhaps it shouldn't be called a human language.

    I look forward to computer simulation methods proving the origin of PIE, but I hope I don't have to wait 500 years.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    First we start from the facts that now exist.

    Sanskrit (English: /ˈsænskrɪt/;[6] Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, romanized: saṃskṛtam, IPA: [ˈsɐ̃skr̩tɐm] (listen)) is a language of ancient India with a 3,500-year history.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

    R1a Z93, Z94 are people who bring a common (Slavic, Indo-European ) words to India and Sanskrit.

    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg

    This means that these common Slavic word have been spoken four thousand years ago somewhere in the common homeland(Russian steppes). This is what we know for now based on presented facts.

    Who else would bring Croatian or Russian words to India and Sanskrit? These words could only be shared in the same house four thousand years ago, after that part of tribe goes to India part to Europe.

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    Where did proto IE language start

    I hit my bookmark for far future to see if anything new was for sell and all I got was an ad for a violen instructer. Did it go belly up or is it just a web error.

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